Thoughts about people claiming alien contact

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posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 09:05 AM
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it is exactly the case that the findings need to be pretty much in line with current understanding of the various sciences. There is a ruleset to go by when attempting to establish fact, and this is part of it, unwritten or otherwise.


I agree. And I think this is what will completely prevent it likely being 'proven' until our understanding of the various sciences itself radically improves.


I guess the Mufons of the world would have to take the lead on this. Placing store in any given organisation will never be everyone's cup of tea, but the current ad-hoc approach of ufology is taking it nowhere other than more conspiracy theories, blurry photos and "I was abducted by aliens" stories.


I think you may have missed the point that MUFON is part of what got us there, culturally. And I can't tell you how much of the stories are likely influenced, both before and after the experience and particularly before any unbiased recording of it, by the social cult aspect of abductee clubs.

I don't think it's entirely just to blame photos for being blurry if the speed and/or tech involved in the craft may make it nearly impossible for any other outcome even with ideal conditions in place, but it is reasonable to say if we can't see something clearly we have no defense against hoax of which there is far too much already.


There are more shows that explore this topic than say, news bulletins ridiculing the subject.


I don't watch much media about it. But what little I have seen generally picks, with exceptions, the most ludicrously stupid examples for the 'experience' side and then the most long-string-of-letters-after-name credentialed possible to explain why they're just deluded. As if the choice of 'believers' didn't effectively do that all on its own.


I suspect that if a UFO landed in a town centre somewhere random for an hour or so and the news crews were able to head out and film it, it would be treated as a serious event rather than a "and finally" story.


It would be on the news if the few people in power of choosing the news wanted it to be. France had massive rioting and burning for days and days, online live videos, with not a word in the US mainstream media, and then when it did, the 'version' was incredibly creative, as just one of many examples -- I don't watch the news, either, and I don't remember others although I remember there being others, but suffice to say I consider USA news to be one of the most profoundly controlled -- and the public most profoundly oblivious to that -- source of info in the world. But, that is my bias. Given your comment about how you'd ask the aliens to please seek recourse through the UN for their needs (I'm still cracking up over that) I suspect you do not share this particular bias.


The problem for how ufology is reported by the media is that they have very little of substance to go on.


Somewhat. A more extended problem is they do not study any subject seriously or in depth and do not find interesting the elements which do have substance. And, the editorial level tends to have an agenda, which is mostly to sell BUT as a hugely important element, is to not offend their advertisers, without whom they could not sell anything, and no corp wants to be associated with the lunatic fringe, so there's always going to be a debunking element, usually two: one literally, and one by proxy based on such a poor representation of the 'pro' side, so to speak.

Separate field, but in the 'remote viewing' (psychical) topic, there was a big cover article on Fortean Times about it once, which was such a perfect example of mainstream media problems except that isn't even mainstream media -- but it was an excellent example of what happens with the same mentality takes over even the publications that aren't (which is rather like the big food corporations buying up all the smaller 'health' food and 'diet' food sources until it's all one big Cola War with essentially one intent controlling a huge spectrum of stuff we think is separate. Like the news). Much like a company, for example, my CEO does not need to even know my name to know that I will make decisions in line with his logic and preferences: that is how it works because he chooses his VPs who choose their Directors who choose their managers like me. There will be occasional 'wildcard' or 'loose cannon' exceptions and companies get rid of them. So, this is not entirely conspiracy with the news, it is merely an advanced development of a corporate mentality, leveraged for political and financial control.

In short, media is never going to be useful to this topic except the 'creative' media such as movies and books which may at least provide the public ideas.




posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 09:05 AM
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b) in attempting to prove something like alien abductions, we can only go by established scientific rules, therefore concepts like these, while they make for a good read, must be discounted from the outset in a serious investigation


Fortunately, our culture did not apply those standards to the study of things like magnetics, atoms, and so on, or we'd be considerably farther back. Dan Drasin's quip on that:


In the same manner, insist on classes of evidence that are impossible to obtain. For example, declare that unidentified aerial phenomena may be considered real only if we can bring them into laboratories to strike them with hammers and analyze their physical properties. Disregard the accomplishments of the inferential sciences--astronomy, for example, which gets on just fine without bringing actual planets, stars, galaxies and black holes into its labs and striking them with hammers.

-- Zen... and the Art of Debunkery)





posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
reply to post by RedCairo
 

Two words destroy it for me:
Crop Circles
I just can't carry on a serious discussion after that.

1. I didn't bring it up, he did.
2. It's a separate topic.
3. So he brought up a fringe field which actually has the 'physical' evidence you'd like, so that's where you suddenly drop out of all interest?!
4. This is great! Next time I'm on some thread and someone starts getting all uppity with the you're-a-hallucinating-moron routine (not saying you did, just saying plenty do), I will just say

. . . . C R O P C I R C L E S . . . .



And they will run screaming into the night. Crap I should have thought of this years ago.


I'm teasing you.



posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by RedCairo
 


Hi,
Thank you so much for your replies, and I am hoping that I will remember (got some ADD type issues) to e-mail you next Feb. for the free copy of your 'memoirs'...

I just have to say again how much I appreciate your clear headedness in analyzing and 'reporting' your experience (not merely the abduction stuff, but your in depth work on exploring all possible causes and remaining as dispassionate as possible in order to avoid subjectivity).

You know, all of your conjectures are in line with my own thinking...we are very much alike in our objective, open-minded approach to the subject of UFO/abduction hypotheses (as well as the paranormal in general)..

The intriguing thing about our like mindedness, is that our 'life' experiences are vastly different in that (at 50 yrs. old) I have never once experienced anything remotely anomalous (nor any 'missing time' experiences during which they might have happened only to be forgotten).

I do understand that the idea of being involved with abduction research rings alarm bells. You're absolutely right in regard to the bias such researchers bring to the table...

But, you're mistaken in thinking that your account has no research value aside from it having been re-counted...The value is in the comparison of your experiences with those of others who, like yourself, have had little to no 'polluting' of the details by hypnotism or over exposure to the cultural aspects.

Having read a couple more accounts like yours, I went back and re-read your initial posts here and gleaned quite a lot more insight as far as the 'nebulous' theory which is beginning to evolve (almost of it's own accord) in my mind...

Here's the gist of it:
Perhaps there are people who are born with some 'psychic' ability (and we know they exist) and who then become victims of government mind control experiments (for which there is detailed evidence of existence - the MKUltra papers) and as a result end up having their minds 'activated' in some way that then 'allows' the more other-worldly aspects of reality to interact with their consciousness.

This accounts for the anomalous experiences which happen prior to 'abduction' then increasing during or post abduction time periods.

As far as the technology involved in the possibility of government involvement, there are congressional reports released as a result of FOIA that show some very amazing technological advancements which the general public would insist have no basis in reality...

As well, there is documented Congressional testimony (from the 70's) that 'Manchurian candidates' are a reality...that the CIA has the ability to program a person to go completely against his moral code, even to the point of murder, and then totally forget both the programming experience and the killing...

This stuff is not conspiracy "theory" anymore...there is documented evidence straight from the government agencies (and personnel) perpetrating the conspiracies.



posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by lostgirl
 


I have missed some of the pages, haven't been following this lately, but saw your post.

The mention of possible links to experiments is one that I have found interesting.

I have had these experiences too, with my husband and children. Though I am originally american, most of the experiences happened after I left the US, and my children were born outside the US, in a rural part of France. They were not exposed to the idea of ET's through media, and we never had to have any hypnosis done to retrieve memories. They were conscious events and some were in public, including other people, and in broad daylight.

Later, I was contacted by a person who had read about us and was investigating military experiments he thought were done on GI's in the 50's. His hypothesis was that certain experiments were done hoping to increase psychic abilities or something, and that the children and maybe even grandchildren of those subjects were still being followed and studied, to keep track of the effects upon genetics.
His suspicion was that the alien abduction phenomenon might be implanted false memories to cover for real events of testing and tracking.

I thought it was a crazy idea. Until I started to look into my background and found out that both my maternal and paternal grandfathers were in the army and stationed at the same time in New Mexico. My paternal grandfather worked at the Low Alamos laboratory. (not only by his own memoirs, but I found his ID picture in the records at the lab, on the internet).

His memoirs describe working with some really well known scientists... and yet I cannot figure out how he got in there, as he had stopped school at fourteen and was a jazz musician. Nonetheless, as soon as he got out of the military, he established his own company, which was making motorcyle and aircraft parts. (don't know where he got the money for that, no one seems to be able to answer that question). just before his death, he sold it to Lockheed Martin.

I kept digging and found things like that, which don't prove anything at all.... but they give enough to raise questions!

edit on 3-9-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 04:58 PM
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reply to post by Bluesma
 

It sounds to me like there is a high possibility of military experiments being linked to your family's anomalous experiences...the info you uncovered definitely raises questions....as well as suspicions....

Los Alamos is noted as one of the facilities which conducted mind control as well as other mind 'related' experiments (such as trying to 'bring out' psychic abilities in people with the use of drugs, hypnosis, etc)..

If you start searching around the internet for this sort of info, just make sure you are reading from official materials and references, because there is so much conspiracy 'talk' out there, it is easy to get sidetracked into dis-information and/or sensationalistic areas...
edit on 3-9-2013 by lostgirl because: to write a bit more



posted on Sep, 3 2013 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by InsertNameHere
 



Jumping ahead a bit re debunking. It has long been my opinion that you cannot really investigate or even take a position on something properly if you start from a subjective basis. This includes preconceptions on items like religion and pre-disposed belief or perceived advantage in some other foundation that sets a persons stance towards a specific outcome from the off.


Having been personally involved with the contact/abduction enigma, and in the course of my own search for understanding the real nature of my experience, have become acutely aware of cultural training; humanistic ideologies and the unique or esoteric sense of being an earthy being. These and many other references form the psycho-spiritual matrix of our complex identities as human beings. It is impossible or rather illogical to attempt to shed all cultural references in order to be objective. I can count the reasons, but will suffice to say that one can with practice set aside many of his prejudices, biases and preconceptions, and thereby open his imagination to the possibilities.

I can honestly say for myself (absolutely) that this discipline opens a level of possibilities and knowing that would not otherwise be obtained. We are fanatics about pretense, evidence, materiality and all of the adjoining synonyms. The fact is that information flows through natural pathways, tendrils that branch and intersect. Finding some knowledge in one thing seems to lead to another, and so on. The standard for logic, scientific protocol and hard evidence is great in terms of human knowledge, but it can be intellectually subversive when dealing with non-human knowledge.

That may sound a bit cryptic, and there is allot more to explain, nevertheless there is logic in things illogical. Everything is explainable under the right terms (not necessarily our). Everything occurs in patterns and these patterns occur in larger cycles. People are so occupied with interpreting everything through conventional references, that they miss the uniqueness and thus the meaning of the event. I know this sounds rather simplistic, it is in a broad sense. That's the really interesting aspect of the relationship between humans beings and these entities who interact with us. We have long languished in the preoccupation of human things, human thinking and local perception, the human world view. Our nescient self indulgence has become a matter of indolence against the sanctity of our own environment and thus - diminished future.

Now, very few people I know would agree with such a statement, and only on an intellectual basis, then quickly dismiss it. It is an empirical truth that is easily justified and yet one that the destiny of the human race is predicated upon. Scientifically, there is no doubt that the current stagnation of our oceans will lead to an oceanic anoxic event. The geological record shows these have happened many times in earth's past and are linked to global warming and mass extinction.

Let us postulate coming in contact with a race of beings who understand this pattern very well, not only from their home planet but by the study of others. In addition, their technology is based on a deeper knowledge of quantum physics granting them the ability to expound their presence without disturbing the natural order of the physical world. So, here now is a reality based upon the technical ability to work with underlying forces of the material world we understand, but which also transcend that materiality. Here we have these other beings who are not subject to dismal rationales within the limitations of our concrete, earthy subsistence. They have in fact transcended the cesspool of which we are a part.

Knowing the waste that shall come upon the inhabitants of this world, and seeing the utter chaos and general disregard for all of humanity and the generations to come, what wouldthey think of us? Would they judge us as a race of immoral, irresponsible children? If so, how would that translate through their missions and treatment of us?

So, in the methodology, we have a sort of end point or perhaps an ensign in the correlation of many abductees, in which there is this sort of morality message, an overt indignation projected upon human subjects rendered helpless, fastened to cold metallic tables, deprived of their most sacred bodily fluids without the slightest respect for human sovereignty. On the human side, great pride in scientific accomplishment, art, architecture, cultural traditions, ingenuity, independence and moral freedom. We cannot imagine how so-called advanced beings could be so cruel and emotionally unresponsive. I think that there is a gift in the deconstruction of certain ensigns and correlations, which come to fruition between naked honesty and rash emotionalism.



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by lostgirl

Los Alamos is noted as one of the facilities which conducted mind control as well as other mind 'related' experiments (such as trying to 'bring out' psychic abilities in people with the use of drugs, hypnosis, etc)..

If you start searching around the internet for this sort of info, just make sure you are reading from official materials and references, because there is so much conspiracy 'talk' out there, it is easy to get sidetracked into dis-information and/or sensationalistic areas...


He always talked about being part of constructing the atomic bomb, but I just did a search and found you are right- I hadn't heard that so many other questionable experimentation was going on there! Like testing the effects of ingesting Plutonium, on employees!

My other grandfather that was there came out being obsessed with psychic phenomena. My aunt tells me that he sat the whole family down each night to study the channelings of Edgar Cayce.

I don't think I'll get too involved in trying to find answers- It doesn't look possible to find anything concrete, and would be a waste of energy.

But it is one more possibility to add to the long list of potential explanations on the nature of the abduction experience.



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by g2v12
 


Very interesting post, much food for thought...

I have to say - the idea of being judged against the majority of the human race really ticks me off, personally. If that is what's happening, I wish the aliens (or who-ever) would open their minds a bit and see that we deserve to be treated as individuals.
There have always been humans who entail a higher degree of 'humanity' then the status quo, it's not their fault that the state of the world has been driven by the less 'humane' of us simply because their numbers have multiplied exponentially.



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by lostgirl
reply to post by g2v12
 


Very interesting post, much food for thought...

I have to say - the idea of being judged against the majority of the human race really ticks me off, personally. If that is what's happening, I wish the aliens (or who-ever) would open their minds a bit and see that we deserve to be treated as individuals.
There have always been humans who entail a higher degree of 'humanity' then the status quo, it's not their fault that the state of the world has been driven by the less 'humane' of us simply because their numbers have multiplied exponentially.



Our world is driven by a powerful minority holding the purse strings. The financiers, the petroleum consortium and of course corporations who support their economic agendas are the ones who make the big decisions and they like the structure the way it is. They are the bad guys. The rest of us are totally dependent upon them for our bread and butter. In a sense, our material well being and comfort relies on the elite, forcing complicity with their demands.

We may hold ourselves in high esteem for the ideals we endear. But how does that translate or express itself in the larger sense when we are talking about carbon units, over population and industrial waste? We are all serving the same organic system, regardless of moral conscientiousness. We all thrive upon the consumption and destruction of our environment. Governments and corporations would rather hijack exotic technology to enhance their own eliteness, instead of having it distributed throughout the world so that life on the planet would be ungraded overall.

And of course, its tempting to exclude ourselves as individuals with higher standards. Especially when we are all equal partners in the chain of supply and demand. Would you sacrifice your car and ride a bike or turn off your electricity for your life to save the planet? That would be one way to live the talk. But of course you are tied to a system like the rest of us, and you're comfortable. Its just too easy to rationalize and excuse ourselves from some type of honest judgement, if not on account of the onlookers. I think that if we really take a deeper look at where we are, and we're just honest about it, it starts to make sense.




edit on 4-9-2013 by g2v12 because: grammar



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 09:32 PM
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reply to post by RedCairo
 


Originally posted by RedCairo
1. I didn't bring it up, he did.
2. It's a separate topic.
3. So he brought up a fringe field which actually has the 'physical' evidence you'd like, so that's where you suddenly drop out of all interest?!
4. This is great! Next time I'm on some thread and someone starts getting all uppity with the you're-a-hallucinating-moron routine (not saying you did, just saying plenty do), I will just say

. . . . C R O P C I R C L E S . . . .



And they will run screaming into the night. Crap I should have thought of this years ago.


I'm teasing you.


1- That was directed towards the: "Abductees are just hilarious joke material" comment you made to ZetaRediculian and I. I haven't ridiculed anyone over claims of abduction. The ridicule here seems reversed. Or should I say, attempted ridicule. I know defenses are high by believers when this topic is discussed with non-believers or skeptics. That's painfully obvious from the exchanges in this thread. I actually find it funny when you strip away the overly verbose pretense, what you're really left with. Never fails. It's typical with a couple of "other" members as well.

2- A seperate topic that brings the discussion down to a different level for me. To me, it shows the degree of anything goes type of acceptance in this field.

3- I didn't ask for physical evidence of crop circles. I've discussed the topic before and do find this subject ridiculous. It's not even worth addressing. The intellectual value and challenge fades.

4- Might work. Although -

B I L L Y M E I E R

..might work better.



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 10:09 PM
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1 - oh sorry I misunderstood what you meant. No I agree you've been only diplomatic.

I will keep Billy's name in mind as my last-resort MASADA PLAN.



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by g2v12
And of course, its tempting to exclude ourselves as individuals with higher standards. Especially when we are all equal partners in the chain of supply and demand. Would you sacrifice your car and ride a bike or turn off your electricity for your life to save the planet? That would be one way to live the talk. But of course you are tied to a system like the rest of us, and you're comfortable. Its just too easy to rationalize and excuse ourselves from some type of honest judgement, if not on account of the onlookers. I think that if we really take a deeper look at where we are, and we're just honest about it, it starts to make sense.


Text Green
While, we have not gone to the extremes you mention in trying to "save the planet", my husband and I do both drive Prius's and recently re-mortgaged our house to install complete solar power, and not to save money on our gas and electric bills, in fact, the solar power system will not even 'begin' to recoup it's cost for at least 10 yrs.! We did it as a matter of principle - to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels...

Along with the above, are all the many day to day things we do - recycling, re-usable grocery bags, countless other things anyone could easily do (even the toilet paper, tissues, and napkins we buy are made of 100 percent recycled materials)...
Oh also, in response to the "over population" issue: we purposely only had one child (and probably wouldn't have had her if my biological clock hadn't hit hard enough to over-ride my ideals in that area).

So, you can see why it frustrates me to be lumped in with the multitudes of rampant consumers of planetary resources.
And I agree with you about not excusing ourselves from "honest judgement"...that's the thing, it is in my commitment to honest 'self' judgement that the tendency (however wrong) to judge others arises....


Mods please excuse for being off topic, I felt the reply to be necessary...
edit on 4-9-2013 by lostgirl because: hoping Mods won't delete for brief off topic reply
edit on 4-9-2013 by lostgirl because: forgot something
edit on 4-9-2013 by lostgirl because: grammer



posted on Sep, 4 2013 @ 11:32 PM
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{Ectoplasm8} Was thinking about earlier post...

Point is well taken. It is no more acceptable to be reverse-biased than biased. That seems to come from defensiveness, which seems to come from ongoing insult. But it's not fair for anyone to take that out on people who are only communicating fairly, definitely not.

To whatever degree I have done that, I humbly apologize.
I will pay more attention to that in the future.
edit on 4-9-2013 by RedCairo because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2013 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by lostgirl
 


I'm into hybrid cars and solar/wind energy as well, so we are on the same page literally. Unfortunately, doing these things only reflects our sincere desire to do the right thing. Electric cars need to be charged and increase the need for expansion of electric plants which means more carbon waste from coal plants. Monocrystalline silicon (used to manufacture solar cells) requires curing in chambers that use tremendous amounts of heat for long periods, again requiring large amounts of electricity or some other form of heat production, which spills allot carbon in the air. The US has been using "food" (of all things) for ethanol production to run cars. Food that could be used to feed a billion starving people on the planet. The Latin American farmers who have been contracted by US ethanol manufacturers, are clearing land at record rates to grow corn, which in turn releases tons of carbon dioxide from the ground exacerbating the greenhouse effect and exponentially increasing the global warming. In other words, energy creation isn't at all about being green, its nothing more than a corporate profits generator. Being green is actually more destructive to the environment than not doing anything at all.

There is no way out when we take an honest look at the limits of our technology. What we need is an energy revolution as well as a technology revolution. One is intrinsic to the other. We don't have it. If someone else does, how do we obtain it? Again, who better off than us is going to offer this kind of help when we don't know where we are and therefore have no referendum to obtain it?

It's the principle of gradualism, the frog in the boiling pot. People resist abrupt change, especially when they are comfortable or trying to maintain what they have. I've learned to be brutally honest with myself. Not only about where I am personally, but where the human race is. Its not what we do, but what we won't do that is illogical, scary, ugly, shameful.

We judge people who claim that extraterrestrials give us messages. We say, "the aliens aren't telling us anything new about the dangers of pollution and nuclear war". Strange that we already have the data and can predict that at some point in the future things are going to get very bad for everyone. We aren't listening to our scholars, our own scientists, so why should we listen to the aliens?

Its quite amazing when we compare the visions of contactees to the biblical prophets who all warned of global calamities. Famines, an increase in inclement weather patterns, great wars and plagues. Don't believe me, take a long look and do the math.



posted on Sep, 5 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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g2v12
reply to post by lostgirl
 


We judge people who claim that extraterrestrials give us messages. We say, "the aliens aren't telling us anything new about the dangers of pollution and nuclear war". Strange that we already have the data and can predict that at some point in the future things are going to get very bad for everyone. We aren't listening to our scholars, our own scientists, so why should we listen to the aliens?


Wait the aliens are telling us these things? Or are people telling us the aliens are telling us these things?

Frankly, if the aliens are telling random people with no sway to go forth and tell others this information and that it's coming from aliens. Either the aliens are really really stupid, or they have no intention of being listened to, and have no problem convincing people to make fools of themselves.

Now I don't buy into the "aliens are too "alien" to comprehend the human condition." I'm sorry but people go way too far with the "don't anthropomorphize the aliens" thing. Aliens would likely not be stupid or unable to do and understand research data. They would know this wouldn't work, and if they actually had any of our best interest in mind they wouldn't tell someone to make a fool of themselves while snickering to themselves in the shadows. They'd know it wouldn't stand a chance of working.

Would we listen if aliens themselves showed up and told us these things, and provided us with an alternate energy plan? I'd say it's a lot more likely than because a bunch of scientists are arguing about it and we're being fed two different stories about what's going on and what we can do about it.

However, Aliens going through random people there's no good reason to believe? Not gonna happen, and frankly the aliens would or should know it.

If aliens are doing this, then I personally think they are having a good laugh at our or at least the individuals expense, probably both.

In my opinion from everything I've seen, aliens are by and large complete and total pricks. Power and technology does not necessitate maturity.

"With great power comes great responsibility." While true, I think we can look to our leaders past and present to know how rarely anyone really lives up to that responsibility. I see no reason to think the aliens would be any different.

It's always, the aliens are here to invade or take control through some complex and sinister means, or to spread some message of peace and love and hope we get the message so we can join them or are so alien we cannot possibly comprehend their motives.

What if they're just jerks who don't need our resources, don't need slaves and don't need our land, because frankly they're advanced enough to simply not need it from us. What if they simply pop in now and then to do a random experiment, some social, some physical, and occasionally just to amuse themselves with the natives. The reason they don't introduce themselves en masse is because they really don't care, and some of them get more enjoyment from having us not know, or our not knowing is part of whatever experiment they are currently doing.

I just feel people give the aliens too much and too little credit and like God are too quick to throw things up to a higher intelligence rather than admitting the behavior being shown is that of an amoral jerk that really doesn't give a damn. It's not that we don't understand it, it's just wrong and we simply don't want it to be.

What I don't think is, if they are here to invade they'd need to jump through the hurdles people seem to think they are. I also don't think if they are here to help they'd do it so poorly, or in a matter so harmful to their intermediaries. I think, if they wanted to invade, we'd be conquered, if they wanted to help, we'd be helped. As such, I think, they simply do not give a damn about us one way or another.



posted on Sep, 5 2013 @ 08:03 PM
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reply to post by compressedFusion
 


I have found that this forum on ATS is not a place where I feel comfortable talking about my experiences. The skeptics are ruthless in their character assassination.

There are other places to visit online, where experiencers are not belittled by those who like to cut up with sarcasm and chide remarks.



posted on Sep, 5 2013 @ 10:55 PM
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ArdenWolf

g2v12
reply to post by lostgirl
 


We judge people who claim that extraterrestrials give us messages. We say, "the aliens aren't telling us anything new about the dangers of pollution and nuclear war". Strange that we already have the data and can predict that at some point in the future things are going to get very bad for everyone. We aren't listening to our scholars, our own scientists, so why should we listen to the aliens?


Wait the aliens are telling us these things? Or are people telling us the aliens are telling us these things?

Frankly, if the aliens are telling random people with no sway to go forth and tell others this information and that it's coming from aliens. Either the aliens are really really stupid, or they have no intention of being listened to, and have no problem convincing people to make fools of themselves.

Now I don't buy into the "aliens are too "alien" to comprehend the human condition." I'm sorry but people go way too far with the "don't anthropomorphize the aliens" thing. Aliens would likely not be stupid or unable to do and understand research data. They would know this wouldn't work, and if they actually had any of our best interest in mind they wouldn't tell someone to make a fool of themselves while snickering to themselves in the shadows. They'd know it wouldn't stand a chance of working.

Would we listen if aliens themselves showed up and told us these things, and provided us with an alternate energy plan? I'd say it's a lot more likely than because a bunch of scientists are arguing about it and we're being fed two different stories about what's going on and what we can do about it.

However, Aliens going through random people there's no good reason to believe? Not gonna happen, and frankly the aliens would or should know it.

If aliens are doing this, then I personally think they are having a good laugh at our or at least the individuals expense, probably both.

In my opinion from everything I've seen, aliens are by and large complete and total pricks. Power and technology does not necessitate maturity.

"With great power comes great responsibility." While true, I think we can look to our leaders past and present to know how rarely anyone really lives up to that responsibility. I see no reason to think the aliens would be any different.

It's always, the aliens are here to invade or take control through some complex and sinister means, or to spread some message of peace and love and hope we get the message so we can join them or are so alien we cannot possibly comprehend their motives.

What if they're just jerks who don't need our resources, don't need slaves and don't need our land, because frankly they're advanced enough to simply not need it from us. What if they simply pop in now and then to do a random experiment, some social, some physical, and occasionally just to amuse themselves with the natives. The reason they don't introduce themselves en masse is because they really don't care, and some of them get more enjoyment from having us not know, or our not knowing is part of whatever experiment they are currently doing.

I just feel people give the aliens too much and too little credit and like God are too quick to throw things up to a higher intelligence rather than admitting the behavior being shown is that of an amoral jerk that really doesn't give a damn. It's not that we don't understand it, it's just wrong and we simply don't want it to be.

What I don't think is, if they are here to invade they'd need to jump through the hurdles people seem to think they are. I also don't think if they are here to help they'd do it so poorly, or in a matter so harmful to their intermediaries. I think, if they wanted to invade, we'd be conquered, if they wanted to help, we'd be helped. As such, I think, they simply do not give a damn about us one way or another.



When you use descriptive nouns like, "jerks" and "pricks", were you referring to aliens or humans? And how would you know what aliens think or what their methodologies entail? Seems to me that humans are the ones who really don't give a dam. They are the ones slaughtering one another and pissing the whole planet away. Do you know of any alien events that have dropped ricin gas on our children or have killed millions of Iraqis for oil?

Maybe you have some deep insight on the redeeming qualities of human intelligence I haven't even considered, who knows.




edit on 5-9-2013 by g2v12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2013 @ 11:21 PM
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I certainly didn't put us on a pedestal. We're jerks and pricks too, but that's my point. You've done the same fallacy everyone else does. The assumption that aliens cannot be like us.

People are so quick to jump on people for attributing human attributes to aliens and making the alien mind excuse when it's completely possible that they are no better than we are. They don't need to have some sinister master plan or be guru's of peace and light. The evidence certainly doesn't support it. Nor do they have to be a completely alien mind just because they come from somewhere else. We don't fully understand sentience and what it means and what forms it can come in. For all we know other sentients aren't that different.

There's evidence of some rather horrible things done by aliens unless you want to pick and choose who's telling the truth. Shoot if we're going to do that we can make Hitler look good by leaving out all the bad stuff.

My claim is this, don't rule it out. If we go the all aliens are peaceful, the evidence doesn't fit, if we go the all aliens are sinister devils with plans for world conquest, the evidence doesn't fit.

I'm saying the aliens are people, not necessarily better or worse than we are. That they likely do not consider us on equal terms. They likely don't really care about us as people, and they likely don't need our resources. We need to stop putting aliens on some kind of mystical pedestal, and we need to not jump at every shadow like they're going to conquer us tomorrow. Both are very unlikely based on the evidence. You need to really stretch the evidence to make either one seem true.

Do they have advanced tech, most definitely. That's the only thing we can say for certain if they are here. Which means just that and no more. Looking at the various encounters and giving them equal veracity be they abductions or contacts then it is clear we can't say they are on our side, nor can we say they are here to conquer us. Neither is supported when you put it all together. Believing either is a bad idea.

Aliens are likely as varied as we are. Which means some of the are pricks and jerks just like we are.
edit on 5-9-2013 by ArdenWolf because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 5 2013 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by ArdenWolf
 


Fundamentally, I agree with you. My point has always been that others, who may be more or less on the benevolent side, would likely take an interest in our welfare, but wouldn't make official contact unless they could see that our planet had a common referendum for radical change. Why? because without the proper mindset to address the most critical issues that threaten humanity (most of them man made) we wouldn't be considered responsible enough or perhaps better said, worthy to obtain even more power to abuse. As you stated, with more power comes more accountability. That's a two way street. We wouldn't expect them to land on main street USA and offer us something that we place no value on. I think the real question is, is the human mature enough to govern itself? I think its pretty obvious that everything that represents order in the global community is rapidly breaking down. I believe in a sort of universal law, that either planets become alpha civilizations or they are victimized by ignorance, cycling from the stone age to technology and back again into the abyss of regression. Who knows how many times this occurred on planet earth. We appear to be in the midst of another civilization regression.



edit on 6-9-2013 by g2v12 because: grammar





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