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NEWS: Japans submarine chase may lead to China UPDATE: Japan Has Lodged A Formal Protest

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posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 12:44 AM
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The mysterious sub that penetrated Japanese waters for over 2 hours before being chased off may be from China. The Japanese navy has reported that the sub is headed for China and its sound classification may be that of a Han class submarine. Chinese officials are looking into the matter which Japanese officials have termed regrettable.
 


UPDATE: 11/12/04 Japan has lodged a formal protest with the governemnt of China:



TOKYO - Japan lodged a formal protest with Beijing on Friday after determining that a nuclear submarine that entered its territorial waters without identifying itself belonged to China.

Japan's navy had been on alert since Wednesday, when the submarine was first spotted off the nation's southern island of Okinawa. Tokyo sent reconnaissance aircraft and naval destroyers to shadow the submarine, which spent about two hours inside Japanese waters before heading north.

Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura summoned Chinese envoy Cheng Yong-hua to formally protest the incursion and demand an explanation, a ministry spokesman said on condition of anonymity.

Cheng said Chinese authorities were investigating the incident and that he would pass the protest on to Beijing, the spokesman said. Kyodo News Agency quoted Cheng as saying he could not immediately offer an apology.
Protest



story.news.yahoo.com
TOKYO (AFP) - Japan's two-day pursuit of a unidentified submarine grew more difficult Friday as the vessel reportedly left a zone where Japan can operate freely, after Tokyo raised the sensitive issue with China.

The sub, which spent two hours in Japanese waters Wednesday before being chased on the high seas by two Japanese destroyers and a surveillance plane, was heading Friday toward China, Kyodo News reported quoting defense sources.

Japan and China have both refused to identify the origin of the submarine, amid expectation the incident would further sour relations between the Asian powers.

"All I can say is we are still chasing at this moment" the Japanese government spokesman, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda, told a morning news conference.

"We have yet to determine the nationality of the submarine," he said.

Japanese media reported that the submarine at 7 am (2200 GMT) left a zone in which Japanese defense aircraft can operate without hindrance.

Entering another country's zone could spark alarm.

"(Japan's) zone is one yardstick of how far we can follow it," a defense spokesman said.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


It looks like the PLANN got caught with its hand in the cookie jar. One has to wonder why they would send a submarine so close to Japan given the fact that Japan has a very capable ASW force. Also interesting to note the waters the sub was operating from is close to a natural gas facility under construction. Either they were probing Japans ASW capabilities, or they were sending a message. Wonder what it was?



[edit on 11/12/04 by FredT]

[edit on 11/12/04 by FredT]



D

posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 03:00 AM
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I reckon it's just a probe. Have a test of the detection capabilities of the Japanese. Nothing big, just having a poke at them.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 03:20 AM
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Ah, to be a fly on the wall as the secret discussions take place between Japan and China.

China: Of course we have no submarine in your territorial waters, but you had better not attack it!

Japan: Don't make us come over there!

About then is when the fighting breaks out... yet again.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 03:32 AM
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Are they actually following this sub as in chase?



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 03:36 AM
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Originally posted by Polar Bear
Are they actually following this sub as in chase?


yes it is being shadowed by 2 destroyers and no doubt alot of P-3 Orions. However, it has or will soon reach China's teritorial waters and they will have to break off persuit



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 06:15 AM
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Japan would want to document everything it could about the intruder plus its course home (as far as they can follow) to back up any protest they may wish to bring say at the UN.

They would also want to encourage the intruder not to let the door hit them in the arse on the way out!

More to the point if anything untowards happen in that gas fields they may want to join the dots later.

I don't think there was any risk or suggestion on the authorities part of a possible risk of engagement

Maybe the Japanese were using some Gas drilling tech the Chinese wanted a closer look at?

Some one else stated it couldnt have been an accident. Sadly it could be. In the last year (possibly two) the PLA-N lost two of thier diesel subs due to accidents. In the latest one the sub disappeared on an ASW exercise and was found drifting just below the surface days later. Reports indicated thier had probably been a chemical leak (most likely somehow water got into the batteries producing Chlorine Gas) and the crew had been overcome before they could surface.

If the PRC are still having this basic problem, then faulty Navigation is not out of the question. I would not like to be the officers on board this sub when she get home...."We're off the coast of WHAT!"



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 06:34 AM
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Orion's, I think must be U.S. And I am not certain but I do not think Japan has any hydro carbons around there little Island. They are the worlds second largest importer of oil behind America.
And the Red Chinese have been rattling their swords for action to be taken against Japan for war crimes in the late 1930's. If we got em and are tracking satellite will take over in territorial H2O and weather permitting will get a clear picture.
Too much tension, not good.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by Polar Bear
Orion's, I think must be U.S.


Actually Japan has a huge fleet of Orions that were licensed build there by I think Mitsubishi (I may be wrong) and its the 2nd largest fleet outside of the U.S.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 06:47 AM
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You are correct on both counts. By the 1990s Japan Mitubishi had built over 100 P-3J for the JSDF, essentially C models. These replaced US and Japanese licensed P-2 Neptunes begining in the 1970s.

Japan, like a lot of countries does have limited oil and gas reserves (Australia is another) but tries to have some self sufficency even if she must import most of her oil and gas.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 06:54 AM
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This all sounds a little fishy to me. If that sub didnt want to be followed, it could have hit deep water and dived below detection depth. Instead, Its staying where it can be detected, and running for China. Either China wants them tho know its thiers, or its not Chinas sub and another country is trying to start something. Either way, its a very brazen act.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 06:59 AM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
This all sounds a little fishy to me. If that sub didnt want to be followed, it could have hit deep water and dived below detection depth.


The question is how deep are the waters? Also factor in that the US has a SOSUS array station on Japan and no doubt thier Navy gets some of its take. Plus the Japanese navy is pretty good at ASW and the PLANNS subs are not among the best in the world. CA's post about screwed up navagation seems to fit this scenarion pretty well IMHO. Scary as it may be though



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 07:10 AM
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Fred,
Yeah, there could have been navigational problems combined with ballist problems that prevented them from diving, But depending on which side of Japan this sub appeared, barring all problems, it would have been able to reach deep water in about 45 minutes. And you are correct about the underwater sonar array, it is the most sophisticated in the world, but if it picked up anything, you would think the US sonar operators would have notified the gracious host of the Japan facility. Problems with the prop control could account for the sub not being positively ID'd. If the prop is damaged, the sonar would see an unfamilliar signal and not be able to ID the source.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
If the prop is damaged, the sonar would see an unfamilliar signal and not be able to ID the source.



A sub can be positively ID'd from sounds other than that of the propellors.

I am assuming that they are in close contact with it and are getting sounds from various sources on the sub. Any one of them could provide the clue to postively ID this contact.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND



A sub can be positively ID'd from sounds other than that of the propellors.



That depends. Depending on where the damage, if any, is on the props, the nois generated would drown out all sound and signal characteristics used to ID the sub. Basically, if the prop blade is damaged on the outer rounded end, you will get much more noise. If the prop blade is damaged close to the drive shaft, the noise will be much less intense, and you could still get a positive ID on the sub.

I come from a Navy family with about 45 combined years on subs. I myself served, though not on a sub. I was on a Guided Missle Cruiser, CG29 Jouett, and I spent 2 years aboard LHA Tarowa. Trust me. Prop damage at the end of the prop would make the signature of the sub practically impossible to ID, even through the super sensitive SOSUS array.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by craigandrew
I would not like to be the officers on board this sub when she get home...."We're off the coast of WHAT!"


I'm sure they got the message when the Japanese started to actively ping them.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
This all sounds a little fishy to me. If that sub didnt want to be followed, it could have hit deep water and dived below detection depth. Instead, Its staying where it can be detected, and running for China. Either China wants them tho know its thiers, or its not Chinas sub and another country is trying to start something. Either way, its a very brazen act.


It depends. Crapy nuclear submarine like HAN is detectable also by infra red emisions (from water cooling it's reactor) up to 500 m depth.
I think Japanesse lost a good oportunity - they should force it to go surface, confiscate and examine it.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by Kidfinger
That depends. Depending on where the damage, if any, is on the props, the nois generated would drown out all sound and signal characteristics used to ID the sub. Basically, if the prop blade is damaged on the outer rounded end, you will get much more noise. If the prop blade is damaged close to the drive shaft, the noise will be much less intense, and you could still get a positive ID on the sub.

Umm, no. The closer to the shaft itself, the faster the rotation and the greater amount of noise can be generated. This assumes that the damge is the same in either location.



I come from a Navy family with about 45 combined years on subs. I myself served, though not on a sub. I was on a Guided Missle Cruiser, CG29 Jouett, and I spent 2 years aboard LHA Tarowa. Trust me. Prop damage at the end of the prop would make the signature of the sub practically impossible to ID, even through the super sensitive SOSUS array.


No, you would still be able to detect other sounds from the subs besides the prop noises. A sub with a damaged prop is not going to run at a high speed, it would want to mimimize its speed in order to decrease its generated noise levels.

That is why you tend to pick up pump noises before blade noises on most subs when you gain a contact.



posted on Nov, 12 2004 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by COOL HAND
Umm, no. The closer to the shaft itself, the faster the rotation and the greater amount of noise can be generated. This assumes that the damge is the same in either location.


Wouldnt that be the other way around? The further from the axis of rotation, the faster the part would be moving through the water.


I can just see it now, like a bad WWII movie.


Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping
Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping
Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . Ping
Ping . . . . . Ping . . . . . PING . . . . . PING . . . . . PING . . . . . PING





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