Make everything 'Free': A Voluntegalitarian System (utopia)

Originally posted by Khaleesi
No matter how you repackage it or try to define it, you are describing COMMUNISM.

www.merriam-webster.com...

Definition of COMMUNISM
1
a : a theory advocating elimination of private property
b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2
capitalized
a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production
c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably
d : communist systems collectively

You are describing and ideal and then there is reality. Your own words tell why it will not work.

Question: Pride,Greed, Jealousy. if u cant make those things disappear this plan is useless.

Answer: those are targets to be eliminated with such a system. yes such elements will still exist at the start. but as time goes by and everyone is able to pursue every avenue, even switch thru 10 college courses b4 they find the field they really want to spend the rest of their life doing that should change. at the end of the day.. therell be nothing to envy since everyone got the same opportunity as u, if u greedy just work more and get more stuff.

You can not change human nature. Communism has been tried and human nature keeps shining through. An elite class has risen to take advantage.

yes such elements will still exist at the start

This is where the elite class rises from and takes over. If these elements exist at the start, people will take advantage and set themselves in positions of power. Thus changing the whole "everyone is equal" ideal into the reality of people putting themselves in a powerful position and doing everything they can to maintain that power. This is why the ideal will never work. You can not eliminate greed and ego at the very beginning thus it will never be eliminated. It's a vicious circle. Greed and ego beget power and power changes the dynamic.

but in communism government officials are not elected to power afaik. in this system, u catch one by auditing his work files to find improper practices and he is out of power.. forever. effectively.. government officials have NO POWER. but to perform the tasks according to the protocols laid before them. designed and instituted by the voting masses. no legislation goes through by decisions in congress alone. instead.. the voting public vote on EVERY PIECE OF LEGISLATION PROPOSED. they can also vote it out.

i was to mention this earlier, but yes the voting system will be tied into every home and person. any person can create a piece of legislation which can be voted on by the general public. a sort of "change.org". but where the voting public is the congress and not a few officials in a room. the officials dont get to make any such decisions on their own regarding how the legislative framework is developed or installed. they go by the book!

effectively.. government officials are reduced to the same level of power and influence as anyone from any area of the working class. all are equal. your manager is not your boss, but your teammate etc.

reply to post by filledcup


Abolish money, limits to wealth accumulation (based in a minimum guaranteed for all, like no one should have more than 4x the resources of the least of us) and no inheritance rights (hard at first but necessary for a better future for all, even direct progeny).

I have yet to read your post in depth, I'm sorry, but I defend the utopie of anarcho-communism that seems to have much in common to what you propose and I dislike the name Voluntegalitarian. Since people are not equal, they should be respected in their diversity (we all benefit from it) and not all can be done under voluntarism (of course that depends on the evolution of the term under such a society, social obligations may be so embedded that all will comply voluntarily to it).

reply to post by filledcup


Read my 2nd post. You can elect these people to positions of power all you want and say you will hold them accountable BUT my first post still holds true. In communism you say they are not elected. How did they get there then? Consensus of the people put them there. Perhaps not an official election but in reality the people decide who they choose to follow and a 'power' within the 'equals' is born. Separate and apart from the 'equal' people. How can you hold them accountable? You say 'transparency' but this is where human nature takes over as stated in my 2nd post. A person in power grants their friends a few favors and then the friend wants them to stay in power. The friends go around telling everyone how great the person in power is and "Let's keep him in power!' Voila, the elite has been formed. There will be no transparency because the people in power start changing the rules slowly and few notice the changes until it is too late. Transparency gone!

Originally posted by Khaleesi
reply to post by filledcup

 

Here is a perfect example.

the only aspect that can be meagerly compared to communism, is in the fact that certain instituted bodies (government) will be responsible for the fair and orderly allocation of resources, products and services to all who make a request for say an iphone. These bodies working inter-connectedly, will place each request in a queue, and each person will receive their request based on availability and their position in the queue for that particular item.

So someone in the government is responsible for this. What happens when a friend puts in a request. This 'responsible person' places their friend at the front of the queue. It's human nature. Then they have power over their friend. "I did you a favor. When election time comes you have to vote for me." and they stay in power and equality is lost.

edit on 26-8-2013 by Khaleesi because: (no reason given)

as defined by the protocols mentioned earlier, there will be an audit trail. u would not be able to bump a friend up the queue without it being seen by reference to the ongoing growing list. this should also be considered a serious offence, bringing with it a stiff penalty.

when you make a request, you will know your number in the list as u are placed in the queue. the list will also contain past and present requesters. basically a receipt, numbered and filed. if someone gets bumped ahead of u.. u will know. that 'administrative worker' will be banned from administration pending review of the evidence.

reply to post by Khaleesi


protocols protocols.

u break the protocol and no amount of votes will keep you in power.. ur out.

as far as i know there is no way to remove a communist dictator from power since he commands the army etc. he will not have that power here. if need be the very army will expedience his reluctant removal in this system. he does not have the power to cling to power once protocols are broken. protocols agreed upon by the masses.

he cant change anything on his own. no administrative official or group of administrative officials will have the power to both create and vote in legislation on their own.

sounds more democratic than the current democracy you have to me.

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by filledcup

 

Abolish money, limits to wealth accumulation (based in a minimum guaranteed for all, like no one should have more than 4x the resources of the least of us) and no inheritance rights (hard at first but necessary for a better future for all, even direct progeny).

I have yet to read your post in depth, I'm sorry, but I defend the utopie of anarcho-communism that seems to have much in common to what you propose and I dislike the name Voluntegalitarian. Since people are not equal, they should be respected in their diversity (we all benefit from it) and not all can be done under voluntarism (of course that depends on the evolution of the term under such a society, social obligations may be so embedded that all will comply voluntarily to it).

edit on 26-8-2013 by Panic2k11 because: (no reason given)

voluntegalitarianism is just a name i used to show that this idea was spawned out of the philosophies of voluntaryism and egalitarianism. it's not a name for the system.

i agree with setting wealth accumulation limits. noone should have 4x more than they need while another has too little to survive for long. this is why this system is also proposed in removing finance on the whole. if working hard brings prosperity.. then this system is built to ensure that!

heck id work 20hr shifts to ensure i get into the bracket i want to be in the fastest time possible. i could then take a small vacation, and then work less hrs per day if i choose etc. for some ppl they will enjoy their jobs so much they wont really even be counting their hrs.. as long as when they go to order something basic they arent refused due to insufficient contribution.

reply to post by filledcup

when you make a request, you will know your number in the list as u are placed in the queue. the list will also contain past and present requesters

So when I request my 'free thing' I'm going to look at the list of EVERYONE ELSE and be able to see if someone jumps the queue? Just how many people do you think will be requesting 'free things'? Maybe on a VERY SMALL scale this may work. On a national level, not so much. The list of requesters would be far too long. All it takes is one greedy egotist in the beginning to make changes and 'equality' collapses. By your own admission, greed and ego will be there "at first".

Originally posted by Khaleesi
reply to post by filledcup

 

when you make a request, you will know your number in the list as u are placed in the queue. the list will also contain past and present requesters

So when I request my 'free thing' I'm going to look at the list of EVERYONE ELSE and be able to see if someone jumps the queue? Just how many people do you think will be requesting 'free things'? Maybe on a VERY SMALL scale this may work. On a national level, not so much. The list of requesters would be far too long. All it takes is one greedy egotist in the beginning to make changes and 'equality' collapses. By your own admission, greed and ego will be there "at first".

well the protocol system can be copied across all regions. but the officials or administrators for each region will not be the same.

eg.
in a small town of 1000 ppl, jim, jack and fred will be administrative officials for that town, following the protocols

in a larger town next door with 4000 people, jason, irma, duke, john, pete and jenny will be administrative officials following the same protocols.. and so on.

so there may be groups of administrators based on the amount of ppl they have to administer. but also, each town, city is interconnected and copies of the recorded data(hrs worked, requests) accessible to a headquarters of sorts. or centralized administration for a region/country. everything ties in for reference.

the centralized administrative body which oversees all towns and cities is only called into action when discrepancies are found, and will act to remove that official from his seat if found to be performing illicit practices(against protocol).

though you receive a paper receipt showing say you and the previous 100 requesters for a particular item, the information is also recorded in a specialized computer system network designed to facilitate it. further more, members of the public will have access to read off the system any data that is also accessible to the administrative officials. by this they can oversee their practices and ensure that fairness is adhered to. they could possibly also print a pdf list for all requesters for the month, and see in realtime all new inclusions to the system.

it will be damn risky to bump someone in the queue with that kind of oversight. like i said. nothing is hidden. the land is governed by the people. the officials just follow protocols designed for them. not as prestigious a position as it is regarded now in politics.

an entire country of millions will not be administered by one group at headquarters. but by subgroups for each sub-region.. towns, cities, states. which all ties back in to a centralized system issuing queue numbers for requests.
the protocols arent administered manually on paper, but from a multi-tier computer system designed for it.

Please read Animal Farm by George Orwell. You are describing an IDEAL. It sounds great, in theory. In reality, it doesn't work. Your examples of "protocols .protocols protocols" is the IDEAL. So you break it down in small groups ... controlled by a larger group which is in turn controlled by an even larger group. The same principle still holds. Human nature can not be removed from the equation. Centralized Government = Communism.

Governments are corrupt. And people are generally jerks. Those are two very large hurdles to overcome.

Pythagoras said, "So long as free men require laws, they are not fit for freedom." Stated somewhat differently by Thoreau, "I HEARTILY ACCEPT the motto, — "That government is best which governs least";(1) and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe, — "That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have."

There is a change needed within humanity before this will be possible. I always tell people that my viewpoints border on anarchist. This is true. Not that I think we should be lawless, but rather that at some point in our future we should not need laws. As it relates to the present, I think we should lose many of our laws and focus only on crimes with victims (do things like make taxes where you can't defraud as an individual due to collection at points of sale, etc).

I presume you realize what you're advocating is a form of the Resource Based Economy that the Zeitgeist Movement is advocating, and in fact your version of it is very much like what Peter Joseph has proposed for an interim form of economy.

I would suggest everyone interested in this fascinating topic to go over to the ZM site and read up on it; it's massive now with literally millions of members all over the world.

A few comments to other posts: The removal of advertising will quickly change what 'needs' people think they have and education as to what is actually do-able on a finite planet and what is senseless consumerism will hopefully be in order. Please remember that we now have replication machines that are home-sized, cheap and can produce a remarkable amount of consumer goods (as well as human organs and food!) so waiting in line for an I-phone or some such thing will quickly be a thing of the past. Also, if more complicated or lesser used items like, say, kayaks or personal jets or sailboats are shared rather than 'owned' then both the strain on the planet's resources and the problems of storage of such items is eliminated. After all, don't you just want a sailboat when you want to go sailing, not the rest of the time? Certainly you don't want the storage or upkeep issues...

I have one issue with this and I might as well voice it; there's a difference the extreme training and true labor involved in say, a trauma surgeon's work, and that of an artist, even if the artist is a Picasso.

Maybe there could be a different credit given to the surgeon and other necessary but truly difficult jobs, and the 'artists' could be an avocation rather than vocation. In other words, something that you choose to do on your own free time, after your contribution to society is given.

As Alex Collier's alien friend is quoted as saying, "I still can't understand why you need money to live on the planet you were born on...".

Originally posted by Khaleesi
Please read Animal Farm by George Orwell. You are describing an IDEAL. It sounds great, in theory. In reality, it doesn't work. Your examples of "protocols .protocols protocols" is the IDEAL. So you break it down in small groups ... controlled by a larger group which is in turn controlled by an even larger group. The same principle still holds. Human nature can not be removed from the equation. Centralized Government = Communism.

im a great fan of George Orwell and i read animal farm as a child. i should probably read it again tho it was a long time ago. but not to disagree but the perspective you wouldve gotten from George's book does not make it absolute. but forgiving that i understand the reason for concern.

but can we agree on something else?

a system like this would:-

-make available to all education, food, clothing and basic needs

- will eradicate poverty and allow all to walk the streets with dignity, not to be looked down upon.

- it will facilitate the goals and dreams of the children of future generations and snatch them away from a future of destitution and possible enslavement.

- eradicate crime, or very nearly eradicate completely the need for and developing elements of crime in our current system.

- it will be better, than what we have now and where we're going.

if ur having trouble with the last one, since we are on the topic of famous prophetic authors.. let me also draw attention to Stanley Kurbrick's - A Clockwork Orange. which provides a vision presented by him in this story that evolved out of this current system of Capitalism. in effect, that is where we are heading if we dont do something. the criminal element will become so outrageous, not even protective services will have the power to cull them. arent we seeing the early stages of that right now? all around the world?

i will also draw attention to the Mad Max Trilogy. also quite relevant.

and stop calling it communism. u cant remove dictators from power in communism. this system is much more effectively democratic in nature. powerfully more so.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


heh i pretty much said the same thing a couple pages back.

the masses would have to believe within themselves that they deserve a utopic society to make it work.

reply to post by signalfire


funnily.. i have been developing this system on my own for near 20 years. was not aware of the zeitgeist proposition on the matter. but it sounds like something i would agree with. would need to research it much more deeply however. so there's no plagiarism here.. just saying.

i suppose i should say "Great Minds Think Alike"

of course this system cannot be completely worded with the ATS word limit and all. it would take many pages of a book i would say.. possibly hundreds to completion. but its all in my head. so i basically laid out a template and decided to address concerns individually as they arise in the discussion.

reply to post by filledcup

Question: If everything is free, why would ppl work?
Answer: If you dont work, you dont benefit from the equal opportunity to 'freeness'

Greta idea!

To just advance it a little, why don't we reward the people that work/work harder with tokens!....we could call these tokens "money"....the more people worked or the harder they worked they would be rewarded with more "tokens!"

The more "tokens" that people earned...the more stuff they could buy!



I can't believe that no one has thought of this before!

Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by filledcup

 

Question: If everything is free, why would ppl work?
Answer: If you dont work, you dont benefit from the equal opportunity to 'freeness'

Greta idea!

To just advance it a little, why don't we reward the people that work/work harder with tokens!....we could call these tokens "money"....the more people worked or the harder they worked they would be rewarded with more "tokens!"

The more "tokens" that people earned...the more stuff they could buy!



I can't believe that no one has thought of this before!

you are forgetting a very simple thing.

a construction worker works very hard.. and long hrs.. 8, 12 and 14hrs a day. yet many cannot even afford their own home.

a bank ceo sits in an office and goes to meetings.. he might work 6 hrs a day.. and buy a million dollar home.. Cash.

how fair is that with your tokens?

reply to post by filledcup

you are forgetting a very simple thing. a construction worker works very hard.. and long hrs.. 8, 12 and 14hrs a day.
yet many cannot even afford their own home.
a bank ceo sits in an office and goes to meetings.. he might work 6 hrs a day.. and buy a million dollar home.. Cash.
how fair is that with your tokens?

fairness doesn't come into it.

What's to stop the construction worker from entering the employ of the banking system and become a CEO?

What you are suggesting is simply communism.

Originally posted by signalfire

A few comments to other posts: The removal of advertising will quickly change what 'needs' people think they have and education as to what is actually do-able on a finite planet and what is senseless consumerism will hopefully be in order. Please remember that we now have replication machines that are home-sized, cheap and can produce a remarkable amount of consumer goods (as well as human organs and food!) so waiting in line for an I-phone or some such thing will quickly be a thing of the past. Also, if more complicated or lesser used items like, say, kayaks or personal jets or sailboats are shared rather than 'owned' then both the strain on the planet's resources and the problems of storage of such items is eliminated. After all, don't you just want a sailboat when you want to go sailing, not the rest of the time? Certainly you don't want the storage or upkeep issues...

indeed i have mentioned this before albeit not here in this discussion. but yes i agree.. there is no need to own a boat exclusively if u only sail once a year. thus there could be a sharing aspect for these types of things.

I have one issue with this and I might as well voice it; there's a difference the extreme training and true labor involved in say, a trauma surgeon's work, and that of an artist, even if the artist is a Picasso.

Maybe there could be a different credit given to the surgeon and other necessary but truly difficult jobs, and the 'artists' could be an avocation rather than vocation. In other words, something that you choose to do on your own free time, after your contribution to society is given.

i think that certain highly demanded or exclusive skills as u mentioned here will quickly earn their way into the top bracket divisions for access. and be unrestricted in what they can request. remembering that their will be brackets of accomplishment based on total contribution. everyone is eventually going to get there as long as they keep racking up their hrs.

another aspect of the voluntaryism is in people. there is nothing stopping you from donating some of your hrs to a doctor who saved your life out of gratitude. so in addition to the surgeon earning his own hrs as he works.. others can donate of their account to him. showing our appreciation for the work he does and assisting him to get to a higher level of comfort faster.

same for musicians and other artists etc. donate an hr to his account from your own because his album totally rocks. lol

Originally posted by Argyll
reply to post by filledcup

 

you are forgetting a very simple thing. a construction worker works very hard.. and long hrs.. 8, 12 and 14hrs a day.
yet many cannot even afford their own home.
a bank ceo sits in an office and goes to meetings.. he might work 6 hrs a day.. and buy a million dollar home.. Cash.
how fair is that with your tokens?

fairness doesn't come into it.

What's to stop the construction worker from entering the employ of the banking system and become a CEO?

What you are suggesting is simply communism.

nonsense.

this system is about fairness. that is it's objective.

what's stopping the construction worker may be finance.. but it may also be he is not mathematically inclined. he has a different set of skills and talents. he should not be valued less because his skills are as much needed to construct the bank building as the banker to oversee banking practices are progressive.

do u think u can go a year without garbage men and janitors in the world? these ppl are all necessary and important to a developing society. and should not suffer even tho they work so hard for long hrs. trying to circumvent the point is foolish. does hard work get one prosperity or not is the question... and the answer under capitalism is.. NOT ALWAYS!

in fact.. More often.. NOT!

and again in response to ur last statement.. nonsense.

reply to post by filledcup


I agree in THEORY. The ideal is just that an IDEAL. It's a nice thought ... on paper. I just can't see a way to remove human nature from the equation. Maybe some time in the distant future .... maybe. At this point in time ... even if implemented the way you describe ... somewhere, someone will figure out a way to get around the system because of ... human nature. It's a nice idea though.