Okay, so I do realize that this forum is "US Political Madness", but...

reply to post by beezzer


Except they do, they talk about drones the NDAA, NSA all of it... if you're meaning that they didn't wig out over Benghazi and Fast and Furious sure... all else was on the table, bailouts, cronyism. Obama even dissed HuffPo.

As far as the OP is concerned, 100% correct. The political forums on this site are: anything that isn't Right Wing is socialist, communist even Democrats who are largely center with some right and some left. Right Wingers on this site will nail you to a wall if you try to claim all but the sacred few Republicans are right wing, yet Democrats are always Left, Liberal or Progressive or as I mentioned above commie socialists.

The really funny part is that non-conservatives almost have to carry Obama's water whether we want to or not because 99% of the posts on here about him are just absurd. I sure as hell don't want to carry water for that man or his administration... just some of us like to have discussions that contain facts, being a conspiracy site isn't an excuse to throw facts out the window.

Meanwhile (I know myself and a few other Lefties have tried a million times to write threads that discuss our point of view and some wanker always comes along spazzing about liberals and agendas. Hell most of you won't even return the courtesy we've given, in accepting your definitions of your stances and ideologies. We tend to accept as fact when you guys say the majority of Republicans aren't true Conservatives yet we're stuck with all Lefties are Democrats and all Democrats are Lefties and all of us are liberal, socialist commies.

It feels like all take and no give.

reply to post by xuenchen


I am well aware that both Democrats and Republicans ended up against the public option. The question is "why" did Democrats and Obama who were both strong supporters of the public option opt to drop it and not push the issue? The answer lies in Republican rhetoric which demonized the public option as an evil socialist program and that it would force everyone onto "government insurance" that would have "death panels" and "be between you and your doctor".


The public option would have made all health insurance cheaper because it would have acted like a cost controlling mechanism. The public option wouldn't have to turn obscene profits to please shareholders, so they could offer premiums that are lower. Not everyone is want to be on the public option, so private insurance would still have it's place. However, if private insurance decided to raise prices too high, people would abandon it for the public option. So this is how it would help control health insurance costs.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Hating on Moderate Republicans doesn't mean you are non-partisan or objective...

It actually means you are so far right that a Moderate Republican is as distasteful as a Moderate Democrat...

RINO hunting...

RINO Hunters!

All Constitutional Libertarian's are issued RINO hunting licenses with our ID cards. We get the optional DINO license too for just $1 more.

reply to post by AlienScience

I am well aware that both Democrats and Republicans ended up against the public option. The question is "why" did Democrats and Obama who were both strong supporters of the public option opt to drop it and not push the issue? The answer lies in Republican rhetoric which demonized the public option as an evil socialist program and that it would force everyone onto "government insurance" that would have "death panels" and "be between you and your doctor".

So now the Democrat Leadership is THAT easily swayed by supposed "Republican rhetoric which demonized the public option as an evil socialist program" ??

That's very disturbing.

Assuming that view is not practical, what would be another reason IYO (in your opinion) ?

Hint: $

Originally posted by Bassago
All Constitutional Libertarian's....

Who?

That's just the latest Buzzword for the GOP.

"I'm not a Republican, I'm a Constitutional Libertarian and I'll vote for whoever the GOP candidate is, you see if I don't! I'm not a Republican I tell ya!"

Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by AlienScience

I am well aware that both Democrats and Republicans ended up against the public option. The question is "why" did Democrats and Obama who were both strong supporters of the public option opt to drop it and not push the issue? The answer lies in Republican rhetoric which demonized the public option as an evil socialist program and that it would force everyone onto "government insurance" that would have "death panels" and "be between you and your doctor".

 

So now the Democrat Leadership is THAT easily swayed by supposed "Republican rhetoric which demonized the public option as an evil socialist program" ??

That's very disturbing.

Assuming that view is not practical, what would be another reason IYO (in your opinion) ?

Hint: $

Well, first they (the Progressives, not true Democrats) blamed Bush and now they have a new Boogyman. Rush Limbaugh. A radio talk show host is bringing this admin to it's knees. One can only hope.

THAT'S grasping at straws folks!

I'm not totally sure it is right wingers making the posts. If I voted for Obama I would be totally pissed off with him since many of his big promises have not only been unfulfilled but are failing or gone the complete opposite direction.

Unless you are totally in love with the guy no matter what he does I would suggest these areas below would make me want to protest against him if he got my vote as it seems under false pretenses


Here is a link to 6 pages of broken promises YOU voted him into office to accomplish. Two biggies I don't think are on the list is a more open Government. He is worst than any other President for both providing answers to many miss steps and basically locking the freedom of information act down. Since I didn't vote for him I can't really complain too much, but like I said if I did I would be rather pissed off.

Promises Broken.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


On Syria: I'm not really sure what you are asking me. Yes, a senior official said "there is little doubt"...that is far from Obama coming out and saying "Syria definitely used chemical weapons"...which is what you originally claimed. Now, I'm fine with them talking about it, investigating it, and condemning them for it. I will not support another boots on the ground type of war, I never supported the original ones we are in right now. I don't really have an opinion about them using missile strikes if they are used for the purposes of stopping further slaughter. I'm well aware that we don't have all the facts as private citizens, I'm well aware that we shouldn't have all the facts about our military options, and I'm well aware that we do some shady things regardless of who is in office. As long as they don't commit to a long drawn out ground war...I really have little to say about it.

On You Being A Libertarian: I don't believe I ever called you a Republican. I did equate one of your questions to Republican rhetoric, but that was because it's true. It's a common Republican tactic to try to frame Obama's actions as being against the best interest of the nation, and that is what you did. You are free to have any political affiliation that you would like, I don't agree with Libertarians point of view, I don't think they are realistic or obtainable, nor do I believe they would be in the best interest of our nation. But I wouldn't go around yelling that you and Ron Paul are trying to destroy the nation, I just don't agree with your philosophy.

On Skewing Statistics: Could you provide an example of Obama skewing statistics? I can't comment on vague generalities like that...I responded to your original questions exactly for that reason, they were direct and specific. But now you are getting into the meme of blaming Obama for very general things. I can't say he never has and I can say he definitely has, because you have failed to be specific in your question.

On Blowing Events Out Of Proportion: I don't know how you blow the Boston Bombings out of proportion. It was our most significant "terror" attack since 9/11. Sandy Hook had very young children gunned down...how can that be blown out of proportion??? It was a major and very tragic event. The Trayvon Martin case became national news before Obama commented on it, and he didn't do it of his own accord, he was asked about it by the press. So now it seems like you have stopped being rational about your critique of Obama and have moved into the absurd criticism that comes daily from Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

"Ends justify the means": By you trying to attribute this to Obama in connection with the Boston Bombings, Sandy Hook, and Trayvon Martin...you are implying that these are all false flags set up by Obama to further his agenda. If not, what "ends" and what "means" are you referring to?

PPACA: I'm not happy with the PPACA either, but like I said it is 1000% better than doing nothing. My honest thoughts on the matter is that the PPACA is a gateway to Universal Healthcare. The private insurance system is not sustainable, the PPACA may have just sped that process up though. Once that system crashes, our only option will be to move to single payer universal healthcare system. But in the meantime, the PPACA will save lives and get everyone the care they need, even if it is forcing them to buy into a system that is not ideal. While it is not ideal, it is the only system we have right now. It was infinitely better than the alternative, which was a combination of allowing Insurance companies to sell the same policy nationwide coupled with removing all liability from doctors who mess up.

I'm a bit shocked to hear a libertarian in support of such a large government program such as Universal Healthcare. How do you reconcile that with the Libertarian view of government not being involved in anything?

Spying: Is someone illegally spying on you if they watch you walk outside? If they stand close to you on the street and hear your conversation? If they make a note that you go to the same restaurant every single Wednesday and you meet the same person each day? Is any of that illegal? If not, why do you think you have privacy on the Internet? The Internet is the virtual public setting. If you own a website and the NSA hacks into your server, then you have a complaint. But if the website you visit voluntarily hands over their records to the NSA, there is nothing for you to complain about.

The internet/cell phone "spying" that is going on is akin to the police/agents videotaping a known criminal as he goes to meet a contact, and you just happen to be walking next to him on the sidewalk. Would you scream that they are illegally spying on you in that situation?

Originally posted by BritofTexas

Originally posted by Bassago
All Constitutional Libertarian's....

Who?

That's just the latest Buzzword for the GOP.

"I'm not a Republican, I'm a Constitutional Libertarian and I'll vote for whoever the GOP candidate is, you see if I don't! I'm not a Republican I tell ya!"

The above comment is just playing games. Many of us here have voted for obama in the past, but like myself voted for republicans and twice for ron paul in the primaries.
Using comments like Buzzwords and Lol lol lol is really a low point don't you think?

Originally posted by SunnyDee

Using comments like Buzzwords and Lol lol lol is really a low point don't you think?

Well, that is the tactic of those who begin to lose the debate.

Don't bother pointing it out to them though as the debate will only sink lower if you allow it.

It's always their way, or the highway. What you care about, doesn't matter to them since you are a lower class.

reply to post by xuenchen

So now the Democrat Leadership is THAT easily swayed by supposed "Republican rhetoric which demonized the public option as an evil socialist program" ??

I don't believe it is an issue with Democrats and Democrat Leadership being swayed themselves. It is an issue with how effective Republican rhetoric convinced the masses that there were going to be Death Panels and year long wait times for doctors if the public option was passed.

Democrats, like all politicians, will take into account what voters think. No, not because they are that concerned or care about what they actually think, but because they still have to win their next election. The polling on the public option, due to Republican rhetoric, was not in favor of the anyone supporting it. When the public has been convinced that there are Death Panels, no matter how idiotic and false that idea is, you can't really vote to move forward with it.

This is how rhetoric works. It isn't designed to convince your opposition, it is designed to convince the unwashed masses.

reply to post by Kali74

he political forums on this site are: anything that isn't Right Wing is socialist, communist even Democrats who are largely center with some right and some left.

What the hell is 'center' about :

Gun control
Money control
Climate control.
Corporate control.
Healthcare control.
Education control.

Democrats largely 'center' my right wing behind.

reply to post by SunnyDee

Many of us here have voted for obama in the past, but like myself voted for republicans and twice for ron paul in the primaries.

What, if anything, does Obama and Ron Paul have in common?

I can't think of one thing that Obama campaigned on (in his first or second campaign) that would align with someone who would also support Ron Paul.

They are so polar opposite, it is unbelievable.

Originally posted by BritofTexas

Originally posted by Bassago
All Constitutional Libertarian's....

Who?

That's just the latest Buzzword for the GOP.

"I'm not a Republican, I'm a Constitutional Libertarian and I'll vote for whoever the GOP candidate is, you see if I don't! I'm not a Republican I tell ya!"

Oh geez, the koolaid has affected you cognitive functions. I am not a Republican or Democrat and gave up the fake 2 party charade long ago. For myself it's simple, does it comply with the Constitution and Bill of Rights? If not I will oppose it. I know the Reps and Dems (politicians) mostly no longer believe in either and both scream bloody murder trying to distract from that. Bush was a total tool, Obama is an even bigger tool.

reply to post by Bassago


Oh now there are clear ideological differences as they can be seen in this thread. What makes right and left seem the same is that GD piece of paper.

Thank God we have it, because if we didn't this country would be a hell of a lot worse.

reply to post by AlienScience

My point was in response to the other poster. If you don't understand my meaning, this is it. Constitutional libertarian is not a buzzword. It stands for those that have libertarian views in line with the constitution. Some libertarian views are quite extreme and would not necessarily be in line with the constitution.. And those like me that see ourselves lately as more CL than any other party, vote with our conscience and not with one party.
The poster I responded to made a ridiculous statement that everyone that claims CL is really just part of the GOP.
I personally voted Libertarian in this last election. Voted RP in the primaries.

Originally posted by SunnyDee
The above comment is just playing games. Many of us here have voted for obama in the past, but like myself voted for republicans and twice for ron paul in the primaries.
Using comments like Buzzwords and Lol lol lol is really a low point don't you think?

Using comments like "Buzzwords" is a low point? No. I disagree. Most of the threads in these Forums use the "Buzzwords" from the sourced material and some that members just make up. There is a reason the ACA is known as "Obamacare".

Does it add anything to a Political debate? Absolutely not.

But that brings up the question of whether there is any worthwhile Political debate on these boards. And brings us back to the OP.

Over the past three years I've come to the conclusion that Political debate on this Forum is just a bunch of Red shirts chanting "Go Team" and 'Obama Smells". (Unfortunately, they never get beamed down with the away team.)

You have been here a year longer than me, so if you did indeed vote Obama in 07 and are not Partisan, you should understand where I am coming from.

By and large I treat the Partisanship on ATS with the ridiculousness that it deserves. And save the real debates for in person, not faceless, anonymous avatars.

Hope you understand.

reply to post by neo96

Gun control
Money control
Climate control.
Corporate control.
Healthcare control.
Education control.

Corporate control through:
Gun control
Money control
Climate control (denying there's a problem)
Healthcare control
Education control

Fixed it for ya

Originally posted by SunnyDee
reply to post by AlienScience

 

My point was in response to the other poster. If you don't understand my meaning, this is it. Constitutional libertarian is not a buzzword. It stands for those that have libertarian views in line with the constitution. Some libertarian views are quite extreme and would not necessarily be in line with the constitution.. And those like me that see ourselves lately as more CL than any other party, vote with our conscience and not with one party.
The poster I responded to made a ridiculous statement that everyone that claims CL is really just part of the GOP.
I personally voted Libertarian in this last election. Voted RP in the primaries.

But you claimed you voted for Obama in 2008...so what has Obama done in your opinion different than what he campaigned on that caused you to move to Ron Paul (Libertarian) instead?

I understand what your response was in response to, but it still doesn't make sense that someone who voted for Obama would also support Ron Paul.

So I don't think it is really Obama changing, I think it is that you changed...drastically...in your political view points. You can't blame Obama for that.

Originally posted by SunnyDee
reply to post by AlienScience

 

My point was in response to the other poster. If you don't understand my meaning, this is it. Constitutional libertarian is not a buzzword. It stands for those that have libertarian views in line with the constitution. Some libertarian views are quite extreme and would not necessarily be in line with the constitution.. And those like me that see ourselves lately as more CL than any other party, vote with our conscience and not with one party.
The poster I responded to made a ridiculous statement that everyone that claims CL is really just part of the GOP.
I personally voted Libertarian in this last election. Voted RP in the primaries.

Ron Paul is a Republican not a Libertarian.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"
William Shakespeare