Is Affirmative Action And Welfare A Black Thing!

This is a spin-off from another thread Turns out they were racist...what now? Teen Australian Thrill Killers www.abovetopsecret.com...
The topic inevitably began to morphed into other issues the following being one of them,some ATS residents made references to Blacks and Affirmative Action, the Welfare part I throw in there because it is somewhat related and equally misunderstood.

There was always an objection to government social programs going all the way back to FDR and the New Deal all this coming out of the depression and the need to adopt some social or frankly socialist programs to remedy raging poverty, out of this was born Social Security and the right to Unionize,to get a better picture of what America was like prior to WWII I recommend various works of Upton Sinclair and John Steinbeck en.wikipedia.org...

Central Park
Although America was crawling it's way out of the depression after 10yrs it was WWII that made the middle class possible for even before the depression most Americans including most White folks were simply broke and that increased the further south one traveled,End of WWII saw all kinds of social programs put in place Veterans benefits,the growth of Unions etc these programs built the American middle class which was mostly Whites..for all things were not exactly equal as with welfare there is almost universal belief that Blacks are the primary benefactors of it.

This history has been told before, but Katznelson offers a penetrating new analysis, supported by vivid examples and statistics. He examines closely how the federal government discriminated against black citizens as it created and administered the sweeping social programs that provided the vital framework for a vibrant and secure American middle class. Considered revolutionary at the time, the new legislation included the Social Security system, unemployment compensation, the minimum wage, protection of the right of workers to join labor unions and the G.I. Bill of Rights.

Even though blacks benefited to a degree from many of these programs, Katznelson shows how and why they received far less assistance than whites did. He documents the political process by which powerful Southern Congressional barons shaped the programs in discriminatory ways -- as their price for supporting them. (A black newspaper editorial criticized Roosevelt for excluding from the minimum wage law the black women who worked long hours for $4.50 a week at the resort the president frequented in Warm Springs, Ga.)
www.nytimes.com...

Recommend the link or better yet the book.^
So if the view that the great society programs benefits mostly Whites then how come Blacks became the post child for such things as Welfare and Affirmative Action..the answer lays in framing by it's opponents, If you want to make something unpopular frame it as a Black thing, the unthinking and uninformed will gravitate towards it's opposition simply because..It's "A BLACK THING" the welfare queen popped into mind, affirmative action is a giveaway to undeserving unqualified blacks let this image soaked into the thinking of general populous and you have everyone screaming for it's demise including some blacks who believed the hype.

Whites never became the poster child for welfare because when the program was first started, they used it as a temporary tool, where as blacks (as by lead liberal policies) used welfare from cradle to grave.

Truth be it told, there ARE more blacks on welfare than whites...

Blacks make up less than 14% of the country, whereas whites consist of over half of the population. Both groups have nearly 39% of their population on welfare. If black recipients are 40% out of an only %14 of the population, and whites recipients are 40% of an over 50% of the population, which group has more of its people on welfare?

Originally posted by ButterCookie
Whites never became the poster child for welfare because when the program was first started, they used it as a temporary tool, where as blacks (as by lead liberal policies) used welfare from cradle to grave.

Truth be it told, there ARE more blacks on welfare than whites...

Blacks make up less than 14% of the country, whereas whites consist of over half of the population. Both groups have nearly 39% of their population on welfare. If black recipients are 40% out of an only %14 of the population, and whites recipients are 40% of an over 50% of the population, which group has more of its people on welfare?

edit on 26-8-2013 by ButterCookie because: (no reason given)

I hope you took the time to read carefully and klik the links

Myth #1: Welfare benefits go to minority women who never leave the dole.

THE FACT IS, MORE WHITES RECEIVE aid than blacks or Hispanics. Two out of three welfare recipients are children, not adults. And contrary to the stereotype of families forever dependent, nearly three out of four women receiving aid get off welfare within two years.

"The white women are invisible," says Nancy Lyman-Shaver, a former welfare mother who now runs a criminal-justice program for ARISE, a social welfare organization in Springfield, Massachusetts.

"They are the daughters and nieces of middle-class, suburban families who end up on welfare because of a divorce or an abusive partner.

"Every family I know has someone receiving AFDC, but no one likes to talk about it."
salt.claretianpubs.org...

Affirmative Action primarily benefits white women says
conservative female author

"I regard affirmative action as pernicious — a system that had
wonderful ideals when it started but was almost immediately
abused for the benefit of white middle-class women. And the
number one sign of it is in the universities. The elite schools
were destroyed by affirmative action for women, not for
blacks."
--Author/lecturer Prof. Camille Paglia

FROM NY TIMES ARTICLE- CITING US DEPT OF
LABOR STUDIES
Reverse-discrimination claims fell into two categories:
individual decisions in which a white man asserted that he
would have been hired for a job had he been black or female,
and cases that claimed programs or plans unfairly favored
women and minorities.

“Many of the cases were the result of a disappointed applicant
failing to examine his or her own qualifications,” Mr.
Blumrosen wrote, “and erroneously assuming that when a
woman or minority got the job, it was because of race or sex,
not qualifications.


Affirmative action has caused very few claims of reverse
discrimination by white people, according to a draft of a report
prepared by the Labor Department. The author says his findings
poke holes in the theory that affirmative-action programs
unfairly benefit minorities at the expense of white workers.

The report, prepared by a law professor at Rutgers University,
Alfred W. Blumrosen, found fewer than 100
reverse-discrimination cases among more than 3,000
discrimination opinions by Federal district and appeals courts
from 1990 to 1994.

A "high proportion" of the reverse-discrimination claims lacked
merit, the review found. Reverse discrimination was
established in six cases, and the courts provided appropriate
relief in those cases, it said.
www.nytimes.com...

Originally posted by Spider879
THE FACT IS, MORE WHITES RECEIVE aid than blacks or Hispanics.

Not surprised at all, because blacks are only 12 - 14 percent of the population.
The "myth busting" doesnt make the issue go away.
Your own link that you put forward to supposedly support your argument, actually works against you:

non-Hispanic whites made up 39 percent of welfare recipients in 1992,
non-Hispanic blacks totaled 37 percent,
and Hispanics were 18 percent.

But back to the thread. The affirmative action in question, targeted to whites specificially, doesnt happen any more because it is racist.
The current affirmative action, targeted to blacks specifically, still happens because to take it away would be racist.

Hii Spider :-))
Well in my country affirmative action has been the norm since 1994-and the reason its not working out so well in many cases,is because it was done in too much of a hurry.When the ANC began to govern they were so rabidly eager to get rid of the majority of whites in the workplace,that the whites were let go,without a gradual transition,so the black people filling their positions were in many cases not trained properly for the jobs they were stepping into.
To be quite frank in many many cases it was a matter of :as long as its not a white,we don't care Who gets given the job"
Can one blame a black person who has been poor or never had nuch more than a lowly paid menial job,for accepting gleefully a much better position-even if they are not trained+prepared for it?Hell no+if the boot was on the other foot,the situation turned around,most whites would do the same.
The thing with affirmative action is,for it to work-there has to be a lot of training+preparation if you are turning the national workforce around ,using people who are new to the job demands they are about to encounter.Never mind which races cultures or creeds are involved.

Even under the ANC government,whites may also make use of certain grants,and of course welfare-thing is,in my country white folks are ashamed to be on welfare-wealthy or average earning whites in my country has always looked down in contempt at poor whites,much more so than at poor blacks-being on welfare carries a stigma among the white population,which to me seems idiotic.

reply to post by alfa1

But back to the thread. The affirmative action in question, targeted to whites specificially, doesnt happen any more because it is racist.
The current affirmative action, targeted to blacks specifically, still happens because to take it away would be racist.

That's not necessarily true

Who are the Intended Beneficiaries of Affirmative Action?

Contrary to popular belief, African Americans are not the sole, or even the primary, beneficiaries of affirmative action. Rather, a wide range of groups have benefited from these policies which promote equality by directing resources, outreach and other opportunities to targeted under represented communities.

These groups include women, Blacks/African Americans, Hispanics/Latinos, Asians/Pacific Islanders, and American Indians/Alaskan Natives. Other underrepresented groups include veterans, disabled veterans, veterans who served on active duty during a war or campaign, veterans who participated in a military operation for which an armed services medal was awarded, pursuant to Executive Order 12985; and recently, separated veterans.

According to the United States Labor Department, the primary beneficiaries of affirmative action are white women. The Department of Labor estimated that 6 million women workers are in higher occupational classifications today than they would have been without affirmative action policies
www.ncsu.edu...

Now if you want to say the primary losers in this are White males then that's legit.
My own view on affirmative action is it should drop group and gender and go towards economic affordability aka class especially for this day and age.

reply to post by Raxoxane


Hi Raxoxane Like I said in another thread the New South Africa is relatively young many of those who fled are finding their way back and filling Jobs so things are looking not so bad for them.

In the U.S there is need to reform and come up with new solutions but stereotypes and ill will often get in the way pushed by those whose interest is not to fix anything like I said earlier the quickest way to have opposition to any government sponsored program is to racialized it,I feel if they could racialize Social Security many here would oppose it.

reply to post by Spider879


Where to start...
First off you are mixing two different things here. The New Deal and Affirmative action. Here is the difference
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

So the New Deal was meant for All americans to help get us through the depression, addirmative action was made for blacks.

Nothing is more freighted with meaning for our own destiny than the revolution of the Negro American...In far too many ways American Negroes have been another nation: deprived of freedom, crippled by hatred, the doors of opportunity closed to hope...But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others,' and still justly believe that you have been completely fair...This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result...To this end equal opportunity is essential, but not enough, not enough

And yes there are more blacks on welfare than whites, look up the per capita basis of those numbers.

reply to post by Superhans

Where to start...
First off you are mixing two different things here. The New Deal and Affirmative action. Here is the difference
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

So the New Deal was meant for All americans to help get us through the depression, addirmative action was made for blacks.

I started off with the New Deal as an example of government great society programs which many opposed as a matter of principle,


Who are the Intended Beneficiaries of Affirmative Action?
Please klk the link www.ncsu.edu... re-posted here.

And by share numbers more whites are on welfare than Blacks.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Superhans

 

Where to start...
First off you are mixing two different things here. The New Deal and Affirmative action. Here is the difference
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

So the New Deal was meant for All americans to help get us through the depression, addirmative action was made for blacks.

I started off with the New Deal as an example of government great society programs which many opposed as a matter of principle,
Who are the Intended Beneficiaries of Affirmative Action?
Please klk the link www.ncsu.edu... re-posted here.

And by share numbers more whites are on welfare than Blacks.

By share numbers?
Numbers need to be put in context which is why we do things on a per-capita basis. since blacks don't make up more than 10-12% of the population there should be no reason why there are more than 10-12% on welfare. Just get over it.

reply to post by Superhans

Numbers need to be put in context which is why we do things on a per-capita basis. since blacks don't make up more than 10-12% of the population there should be no reason why there are more than 10-12% on welfare. Just get over it.

Because the poverty rate was over 33% and given the historical reasons for that see the above link with the book..btw why 38% of welfare recipients whites given that they had an historical head start.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Superhans

 

Numbers need to be put in context which is why we do things on a per-capita basis. since blacks don't make up more than 10-12% of the population there should be no reason why there are more than 10-12% on welfare. Just get over it.

Because the poverty rate was over 33% and given the historical reasons for that see the above link with the book..btw why 38% of Whites on welfare given that they had an historical head start.

Because stupid people of every race think its easier to blame their problems on skin color or even the history of their race.
But to answer your question, since there are more white people period, there will be more white people in every income group.

reply to post by Superhans

Because stupid people of every race think its easier to blame their problems on skin color or even the history of their race.
But to answer your question, since there are more white people period, there will be more white people in every income group.

So you think history even recent history had no baring on present conditions and mind you I know the historical reasons why there are so many whites on welfare..and where they tend to be located.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Superhans

 

Because stupid people of every race think its easier to blame their problems on skin color or even the history of their race.
But to answer your question, since there are more white people period, there will be more white people in every income group.

So you think history even recent history had no baring on present conditions and mind you I know the historical reasons why there are so many whites on welfare..and where they tend to be located.

edit on 28-8-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)

Not at all. Im a responsible person so therefore i take responsibility for my condition in life. The second you start to blame others for your shortcomings you are actually giving them the power to do so. Which is why racist black people that blame slavery and racism for their short comings in life are no better than the racist whites who blame minorities for taking their janitorial position at the local fast food place.

reply to post by Superhans

Not at all. Im a responsible person so therefore i take responsibility for my condition in life. The second you start to blame others for your shortcomings you are actually giving them the power to do so. Which is why racist black people that blame slavery and racism for their short comings in life are no better than the racist whites who blame minorities for taking their janitorial position at the local fast food place.

Not just a matter of blame or finger pointing but thinking beyond the surface of how things came to be,example why were the majority non slave owning Southern Whites tend to be poorer than Northern Whites was not because they were historically lazy or stupid but because of depressed wages due to slavery even after official slavery ended Peonage ensued free labor could not compete even skilled free labor,so while they were socially superior they lived on the economic margins it is mainly the descendants from these classes that ended up on welfare.



I hope you will watch this doc..this goes way beyond drinking at a water fountain or sneered at by bullies.in cases where Blacks migrated initially away from the reach of white folks.



Black Wall street aka Little Africa Tulsa Oklahoma May 31- June 1, 1921 oil capital of the world untold history of America one the wealthiest cities in America they burned and looted their businesses and homes . Among these were 21 churches, 21 restaurants, 30 grocery stores and two movie theaters, plus a hospital, a bank, a post office, libraries, schools, law offices, a half dozen private airplanes and even a bus system.


What is extremely painful is those ex slaves who rolled up their sleeves went to work were as industrious as any new comer immigrant community ,were forced or kept into poverty by laws meant to re-enslave them,they had their communities destroyed if they showed any sign of progress or independence (Black Wall Street) many of them ended up in ghettos abandoned called lazy and used as an example of an inferior human being,the reason why the black elites following the decades of reconstruction concentrated on the political was because they had no choice,if they wanted to forge ahead they had to try and change the system what was the use if they had money but at any moment Anglo Europeans could confiscate property at will for back then Black people had no rights White people were bound to respect, and what new comer communities need to understand, is because the African Americans fought for those changes they could come and concentrate on the economic or education,so knowing this pains me when I hear folks even from my own community pointing fingers saying look at these "yankees"..(derogatory remark for African Americans in Caribbean communities) who have been here so long and yet remain in poor and under educated.

reply to post by Spider879

Not just a matter of blame or finger pointing but thinking beyond the surface of how things came to be

That is just really broad finger pointing and it does not make it any more of an excuse for your shortcomings. When white people do it, its called racism.
"Im poor because those people are holding my people down" - If you are black and you say this people usually just excuse you because you are stupid but if you are white and you say this then are you crucified for being "racist".

,example why were the majority non slave owning Southern Whites tend to be poorer than Northern Whites was not because they were historically lazy or stupid but because of depressed wages due to slavery even after official slavery ended Peonage ensued free labor could not compete even skilled free labor,so while they were socially superior they lived on the economic margins it is mainly the descendants from these classes that ended up on welfare.

There is a bit more too it than that. The southern economy was not the same as the northern one. Non-slave owning generally meant you did not own land. There were also white irish slaves and there was slavery in the north. To do a straight comparison like that is just wrong as it is not that simple.

What is extremely painful is those ex slaves who rolled up their sleeves went to work were as industrious as any new comer immigrant community ,were forced or kept into poverty by laws meant to re-enslave them,they had their communities destroyed if they showed any sign of progress or independence (Black Wall Street) many of them ended up in ghettos abandoned called lazy and used as an example of an inferior human being,the reason why the black elites following the decades of reconstruction concentrated on the political was because they had no choice,if they wanted to forge ahead they had to try and change the system what was the use if they had money but at any moment Anglo Europeans could confiscate property at will for back then Black people had no rights White people were bound to respect, and what new comer communities need to understand, is because the African Americans fought for those changes they could come and concentrate on the economic or education,so knowing this pains me when I hear folks even from my own community pointing fingers saying look at these "yankees"..(derogatory remark for African Americans in Caribbean communities) who have been here so long and yet remain in poor and under educated.

And all of that has nothing to do with anything, its 2013- GET OVER IT. Look at our president, look around you and you will see that most of the US has gotten over it. All this pretending to have some pain over some crap that happened to people that you were related to is doing nothing but holding you back. This attitude is really no better than the racist rants that drunked red necks give.

reply to post by Superhans

And all of that has nothing to do with anything, its 2013- GET OVER IT. Look at our president, look around you and you will see that most of the US has gotten over it. All this pretending to have some pain over some crap that happened to people that you were related to is doing nothing but holding you back. This attitude is really no better than the racist rants that drunked red necks give.

Some of these events happened within a couple of generations there are folks who went through this still living,and it is mostly unacknowledged much less dealt with..and no given the remarks of some here even on ATS alot of Americans have not gotten over it. a black president or not sticking our collective heads in the sand and pretending that we are post racial so as not to find solutions is what keeping all of us back IMO.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Superhans

 

And all of that has nothing to do with anything, its 2013- GET OVER IT. Look at our president, look around you and you will see that most of the US has gotten over it. All this pretending to have some pain over some crap that happened to people that you were related to is doing nothing but holding you back. This attitude is really no better than the racist rants that drunked red necks give.

Some of these events happened within a couple of generations there are folks who went through this still living,and it is mostly unacknowledged much less dealt with..and no given the remarks of some here even on ATS alot of Americans have not gotten over it. a black president or not sticking our collective heads in the sand and pretending that we are post racial so as not to find solutions is what keeping all of us back IMO.

Solutions to what? The imagined racism that plagues this country? Blamming others is just an easy out, people who take the easy out are usually stupid and poor so they continue to be that way. There are numerous programs, and policies that permit black people to get handouts and job placement JUST because they are black the that is the exact opposite of oppression. We have even made the butchering of the English language an official language (ebonics).
I could go on and on about the amount of racism and discrimination I see against white people all the time but i rise above it and don't let it bother me. Blacks have even gone so far as to redefine racism to fit their own agenda by saying that one race has to be in power for it to be racism. Which is not only further cementing in the idea that whites are superior but making it so blacks can't be racist.
This thread started with the ill-informed idea that there are more whites on welfare that blacks and that affirmative action has something to do with the new deal. So keep coming with the misguided ideas, been fun so far.

There are numerous programs, and policies that permit black people to get handouts and job placement JUST because they are black the that is the exact opposite of oppression.

reply to post by Superhans

If you are speaking of Affirmitive Actions see link above.

This thread started with the ill-informed idea that there are more whites on welfare that blacks and that affirmative action has something to do with the new deal. So keep coming with the misguided ideas, been fun so far.

I explained why the new deal was a precursor to Affirmative Action see above that whites make up more people on the welfare roll that's also fact.

And I started this thread because you and others in discussing issues of crime and punishment for three local thugs just throw in the matter of Affirmative Action in the pot, with the belief that's it's a Black thing

We have even made the butchering of the English language an official language (ebonics).

Now we go on to ebonics..while I do believe studying the speech pattern of Black Americans from an anthropological POV see Gullah and Geechee language no one I know entertained the idea that it should be used as an official language.

So keep coming with the misguided ideas, been fun so far.

And keep with that denial ..and yes it has been fun.

reply to post by Spider879

I explained why the new deal was a precursor to Affirmative Action see above that whites make up more people on the welfare roll that's also fact.

But it is a stupid misleading fact and you know it which is why you refuse to acknowledge the per capita factor of that.

And I started this thread because you and others in discussing issues of crime and punishment for three local thugs just throw in the matter of Affirmative Action in the pot, with the belief that's it's a Black thing

Not really, affirmative action was brought up and it triggered this welfare rant with you, those still are not really the same thing but if you would like i could explain to you clearly what the differences between affirmative action,the new deal and welfare are. Because you keep saying affirmative action but it is becoming increasingly clear you don't really know what that is.

Now we go on to ebonics..while I do believe studying the speech pattern of Black Americans from an anthropological POV see Gullah and Geechee language no one I know entertained the idea that it should be used as an official language.

No, its not "now we go on to" it was part of a paragraph which you ignored because it does not back up your blinded and misguided view. It is officially a language and can be taught in school

And keep with that denial ..and yes it has been fun.

I'm not the one in denial, nobody holding me back in life.