Prepare for Aryanisation: Holocaust Denial, Conspiracy Theory, Aliens and the Race Agenda

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posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by YodHeVauHe
 


Yeah. Okay. You've got your own website about "The Truth About the Holocaust".

If I want any sleep I should just put this laptop down.

The Ashkenazi comprise the majority of Jews in Israel, because they also comprise a Pre-WWII majority in Europe, i.e. they are a refugee population. They also happen to be the haplogroup with the highest median I.Q on the planet, but, hey? There's no agenda in lopping that branch off, right?
edit on 25-8-2013 by Eidolon23 because: *snore*




posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by YodHeVauHe
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


ZeroKnowledge




posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 11:58 AM
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reply to post by Eidolon23
 


Great post. In addition to the fantastic OP, the contributors in this thread are enlightening my mind in quite exceptional ways.

Compared to my usual perusals on ATS I feel like I stumbled across a Conspiracy Theory 'Gold, Ruby & Emerald' mine, all rolled into one.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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Its funny how white ppl call them self aryans, i mean those nazies who think they are superior to other races, they mass murdered rhom (gypsies) who are more aryan than these white nazies ever will be. Also i have noticed how always ppl talk about jews genocide/holocaust but not about rhom (gypsies) at all. I guess its no wonder since the 2ww ended jews got all the help in the world, they even got them self country but rhom (gypsies) were sent back to roads where they were picked up but whitout any of their belongings before the wars and many of their families gone. Also romania the allie of nazies continued nazies sick and disturping genetic studies on rhom gypsies to almost 1980, aprox 80thousand rhom children were slaughtered there but these things never reach mainstream media becouse rhoma gypsies are still the target on world wide. They even banned rhoma from holocaust memorial court by non other than george w bush in 2002.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 01:33 PM
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Okay, I'm fairly a newbie to this topic. I hope I ain't gonna be called any names but, hey, this is ATS---I can take it.


I have no truck or patience with the thoughts and values of Aryan Nation-types nor rabid Jew haters. I read the Diary of Anne Frank when I was 11. It moved me, and remains forever connected to my soul. Little Gut fell in love with Anne and always will be. Kind of my "first love" if you will.


Further, I do believe, as I've stated here, that factions of our leadership were co-opted through "infection" and that it's probably likely, imo, that something remains in the mindset of some for a Reich to rise again. That Nazi Phoenix symbol makes me shudder now that I think about it. I know it's supposed to be an Eagle, but…


Now the Holocaust issue: Seems that, in spite of that multi-national tragedy, that there are folk on both sides willing to use it for political purposes. That's shameful no matter who you are.

I want to understand history as accurately as this non-history scholar can, because I do believe that history repeats itself. I don't want to see a run-on by any group of ethnic sadists.

"History" is also a double-edged sword because propaganda is used by ALL TPTB-types. Capitalists, Zionists, Palestinians, Muslim Brotherhoods etc…they're ALL pissing me off these days.

So far, in my early search for Holocaust truth, it seems that Hilberg attempted to figure it out for himself:


The German rights to the book were acquired by the German publishing firm, Droemer Knaur, in 1963. Droemer Knaur, however, after dithering over it for two years, decided against publication, due to the work's documentation of certain episodes of cooperation by Jewish authorities with the executors of the Holocaust — material which the editors said would only play into the hands of the antisemitic right wing in Germany. Hilberg dismissed this fear as "nonsense"...

...With a terse lucidity that ranged, with unsparing meticulousness, over the huge archives of Nazism, Hilberg delineated the history of the mechanisms, political, legal, administrative and organizational, whereby the Holocaust was perpetrated, as it was seen through German eyes, often by the anonymous clerks whose unquestioning dedication to their duties was central to the efficacy of the industrial project of genocide.

To that end, Hilberg refrained from laying emphasis on the suffering of Jews, the victims, or their lives in the concentration camps. The Nazi program entailed the destruction of all peoples whose existence was deemed incompatible with the world-historical destiny of a pure master race – and to accomplish this project, they had to develop techniques, muster resources, make bureaucratic decisions, organize fields and camps of extermination and recruit cadres capable of executing the Final Solution...

...This is an ongoing debate, around approximately the following basic points: Intentionalists see "the Holocaust as Hitler's determined and premeditated plan, which he implemented as the opportunity arose",[41] while functionalists see "the Final Solution as an evolution that occurred when other plans proved untenable".[41] Intentionalists argue that the initiative for the Holocaust came from above, while functionalists contend it came from lower ranks within the bureaucracy.

It has often been observed that Hilberg's magnum opus begins with an intentionalist thesis but gradually shifts towards a functionalist position. At the time, this approach raised a few eyebrows, but only later did it actually attract pointed academic discussion.

en.wikipedia.org...

I certainly think Harry Elmer Barnes was a confused individual, but I do find the following statement of his to be applicable to the those that would warmonger:


Barnes was opposed to the idea of World War I as "just war", which he believed to have been caused by the economic imperialism of France and Russia.[10] In 1925, Barnes wrote:

If we can but understand how totally and terribly we were "taken in" between 1914 and 1918 by the salesmen of this most holy and idealistic world conflict, we shall be the better prepared to be on our guard against the seductive lies and deceptions which will put forward by similar groups when urging the necessity of another world catastrophe in order to "crush militarism", "make the world safe for democracy", put an end to all further wars, etc.

en.wikipedia.org...


edit on 25-8-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 01:41 PM
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Great thread! Raising three Ashkenazim young boys, I think highlighting such information is very important.

Mal



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by starwarsisreal
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


What's confusing is how come 'the Nazis' allowed the civil rights movement to happen? Surely once they are in positions of power they will prevent such a thing from occurring?


You can't prevent popular movements in a reasonably democratic setting. The positions of power merely permit you to direct the tone and extent of the resulting changes in legislation from those popular movements. So no, they could not stop civil rights from occurring, and there is another key reason why the civil rights movement was successful, they used economic leverage. Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on the bus did not end segregation, it was that the African-American community empowered by her defiance boycotted the buses, thus voting with their pockets, that got the ball rolling.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by LABTECH767
It is the work of people like yourself that keep this in the public knowledge this may only be one thread but the deniers are growing in number as are the ultra right wing supporters, one of the greatest tragedy's after the holocaust has been how like the Nazi the Israel state has become with it's own racial purity and ethnic control even to the point were they were caught out sterilizing black Jewish Ethiopian women.
The Holocaust happened and like any one whom knows they have some Jewish ancestry I feel I have lost distant family there and then to the depravity that man can do unto man.
Thank you.
S+F

Just a footnote, one weakness of the revisionists that is glaring is that they continually either deny outright or even try to minimize the number of victims but though discounted due to lack of supporting evidence at the Nuremberg war crimes trials a former commandant of Auschwitz when asked how many he had killed reply's about 2.5 million in that camp alone so the real estimate if taking his word would be far higher but remember these also included pole's, russian's, political dissidents (though most were murdered in spandau), roma gypsies and anyone the Gestapo or the SS wanted to sent there.

Was hitler a mass murdering Lunatic nutcase whom had the German nation wrapped around his finger or was he just a nice little miss understood guy. I believe evil lunatic sums it up for me but he was not alone.


Interesting points. The numbers are an easy target because there can never be an accurate number, the pre-war records and census do not fully reflect the number of people, Jews and other targeted demographics, that existed at the time that Germans began rounding them up and interring them. The most accurate figures that we have come from the literal Holocaust, the industrialised, systemised murder of the Reich Jews, and those records come largely from the Jews own records, kept and maintained in the Ghettos. As far as the other genocides are concerned, those that took place after the invasion of Poland and Russia, and those that occurred in the puppet states, such as Hungary, Romania etc, we have no clear record of the number of deaths, and in fact, in the latter case, are often exaggerated reports to Berlin. They were proud of their 'work' and sought one upmanship with each other in their efficiency in dealing with the Jewish Problem. Furthermore, the records from the Concentration Camps were often destroyed with the Allied liberators approach, so while the Germans kept good records, those records are fragmented. If pushed, I would say that the six million figure is low, based largely on the more recent studies into the actions in the East, where much of the details of those atrocities was concealed from study due to the raising of the Iron Curtain.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by stirling
If theres any truth to the rumour Mein Kampf (My Struggle) was ghost written by a Jesuit.....The blame gets spread around.....
The whole paperclip total was perhaps a lot larger than 700 ...I have heard figures as high as 20,000
Canada, too, was complicit with the US in this sickening process....
Perhaps far more than the public may know.....rumours of mind control experiments as far back as the 50s
gruesome and as shocking as the holocaust itself.......staffed by ex Nazis....


I only gave the figures for Paperclip for a fixed period, but according to Wikipedia the total, eventual figure was 1,600. The 20,000 figure is possible when you take into account other trades and otherwise useful persons allowed through on other immigration programmes.

In terms of Mein Kampf, I do recall something about a Jesuit ghost writing, and I am sure I posted something about that way back when...I can't remember the specifics, but his input was limited, however, the book was largely written by Rudolf Hess and Professor Karl Haushofer. Hess engineered his own arrest in order to be imprisoned with Hitler at Landsberg, and Haushofer was a frequent visitor, together, the three of them wrote the book, though Hitler's input was limited.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 03:37 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by The GUT
The Ancient Alien Aryan? Is there much info on that Sumerian manuscript, KT?


I've searched high and low, nada. Same paragraph of information from wikipedia on every website I came across. I don't believe that such a manuscript exists, but I have seen numerous allusions to so called untranslated Sumerian texts floating around in recent years, enough to sow reasonable doubt amongst those willing to believe such a gossamer tale.


Originally posted by The GUT
Not to get all mystical, but I admit to having wondered a time or two if the foo fighters were a materialization of some sort connected with occult fascination & symbology of some in the Nazi hierarchy.

If something that outrageous were true, then the "Cooties" we received through our Paperclip & Gehlen handshakes…might have been an infection on a much deeper level. Crazy I know…

Anyhoo, sorry for getting "out there" with that.


No need to apologise, all things are possible...probability...another matter...but that there are those shadows of doubt allows both positive and negative interpretations to fester...and that is the point. Nothing doing from the Gehlen angle though, he fulfilled a very specific purpose and remit, and was part of the negotiations of booty division. The Brits got Schellenberg and the Abwehr dossiers, the US got, and paid liberally, for the Gehlen Organisation.


Originally posted by The GUT
It's certainly a socially-complex subject. SUPERBLY written and compelling OP. Looking forward to more discussion.



Thank you, and I am happily surprised by the responses, and very pleased by the discussion taking place, I just wish I had more time to give to it myself.

ETA:


Originally posted by The GUT

Even though Jung did distance himself, later, fairly convincingly, his shared fascination with Eastern Mysticism and his further interest in mythology may have suggested a framework for a personal vision of world rule that might have remained somewhat "Aryan" as a model.


Ahhh...apologies...Serrano didn't conduct the interviews, he just used them as a source. I didn't make that entirely clear.

edit on 25-8-2013 by KilgoreTrout because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Haxsaw
Neither caring for the Jewish or Aryan agenda, I find it funny(probably more sickening than funny when I really think about it) how a race that is known for being intolerant of other races, and who claims to be superior to all races, has a big sooky lala when the table turns.

The jews were kicked out of many countries for thousands of years, around 400 years ago all jews were kicked out of England due to trying to manipulate the currency(something they seem to love doing up to this day, as the notorious german-jew Rothschild said "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws"). Are we to believe that every single time the jews were attacked/exiled that they had done nothing whatsoever to provoke? I would hate to live in that bubble.

We know that their definitely is more than one example of the jews lying(and/or manipulating) the facts of the matter under Hitler's rule, and we also know that the jews claim to be the chosen race, and are prepared to carry out false flag operations killing innocent people and attempting to frames others(usually muslims these days) with the end goal being that others will fight and die for their cause while they sit back and pull the strings, so you'll have to excuse me and any others who chose to use their brain for not having sympathy for the jews and excuse the context with which I've use the word "jews" here, it's a large generalisation, and we all know that not ALL jews are guilty of these crimes, but I'm just going with the flow of the OP and the use of the word Aryan, so I'm sure it can be overlooked all things considered.


Actually it is rather more straight forward than that, Hitler merely carried on tradition. The Jews, right from the Crusades were used as a means of 'emergency' revenue...namely, they would either be segregated and subject to higher taxes, or expelled and their property taken. That is largely how King Richard funded his Crusading escapades. All that was necessary was to start a few rumours, get the largely Christian population all piously grinding it's teeth about the Jews murdering Christ, and Bob's your Uncle, consent manufactured...and a few new gentry get created from the seized assets of the more affluent Jews.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by instigatah
so....
has anyone done any hard analysis on the logistical requirements involved in running the gas chambers alone? Ive been going over the ADL website that was linked to.....the diesel generators for example that were used at one site, how much diesel would have been required....and also....do we know what kinds of gas were used and in what amounts? There are supply chain issues which i would assume by now to have been all tidily button up, zipped up, and gift wrapped to perfection.

the figures for the jewish dead from each country.....why are those numbers rounded to the nearest thousand? If the records are so exquisite and reliably, could we not by now, some 70 years later have almost EXACT numbers of the dead?

those are just a couple of my musings as i pour over the ADL website....and im pretty sure i could find many many more.....but i honestly get the feeling that people who are sensitive to the issue being questioned really dont want some nitpicker coming along and finding fault with the manner in which some of the information is given.....and that bothers me.


As I have answered to another poster, the figures are an easy target, because, no, they cannot be accurately pinpointed. The pre-war records are not complete, or definitive. We have estimates, and many of the initial estimates, made for the purposes of war trials etc have been ratified. Some are more exact than others, while some are still very vague, or reliant on the Nazis own records, and intercepted messages that gave reports of mass killings in the field or as a result of operations.

Other aspects are better explored, such as the modes of killing. I recommend though that you don't rely on the internet, and abridged, summarised information, but hit the books. One of the best is 'Master's of Death' by Richard Rhodes. I would also recommend that you examine the work of the T4 euthanasia programme as they provided much of the expertise employed in the later mass exterminations. Jean-Claude Pressac's study of the Gas Chambers and the crematoria at Auschwitz is available on line, and gives highly detailed information with regards to the entire death process employed there.


Jean-Claude Pressac (1944 - 23 July 2003) was a French chemist and pharmacist who later became a published authority on the Holocaust of World War II.

Pressac was originally a Holocaust denier who, with Robert Faurisson, attempted to disprove what he considered historically inaccurate depictions of the concentration camps Auschwitz and Birkenau as extermination camps.

Upon visiting Auschwitz in 1979, however, Pressac was able to view first-hand the extensive archive of construction documents which had survived due to being located in the construction office rather than the administrative offices. These convinced him that his former views were in error, an event he describes in the postface of Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers, saying that he "nearly did away with myself one evening in October 1979 in the main camp, the Stammlager, overwhelmed by the evidence and by despair".[1] He published his conclusions along with much of the underlying evidence in his 1989 book, Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers. [2] In his 1993 Les Crématoires d'Auschwitz, [3] he further delineated the operation of the crematoria at Auschwitz, and their integration into the larger Nazi program to eradicate the Jews of Europe. Pressac estimates that between 631,000 and 711,000 were killed at Auschwitz.[4]


en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by darkstar57
My understanding of holocaust as psy op started from reviewing certain parts of the Nuremburg trials...the actual table totaling 6 million with the death camps contribution of each, then seeing if the evidence supported the numbers. Bergan Belsen was attributed 750,000. could not have happened, not enough room in the pits to contain the dead, not enough room and time to process the shearing of the locks for the mattresses of germans, etc etc. not enough fuel to burn the bodies, no capability gas that many in the method described, etc. The testimony of one Bomba, a barber, becomes suspect because he cannot keep his story straight...but is a hero in Israel. the testimony in the trials is suspect when you see that the judge is directing the testimony. no germans that were there allowed to testify, and witnesses that would make to extravagant claims would be shushed.

You can scream anti semitism all day and night, these facts cannot change.


I don't know where you got your figure from, it's way off. Anyway, Bergen-Belsen was in Germany, it was a Concentration Camp, not a Death Camp. There were no Death Camps in Germany. The number of dead from Bergen-Belsen is around 35,000 to 40,000, depending upon whether you include those that died following liberation. The means of death was starvation, disease, over work and general mistreatment.






posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 04:46 PM
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reply to post by YodHeVauHe
 


Actually, the population of Israel is made up largely of Sephardic and Askenazic Jews, Semitic Jews, I agree, represent a very small minority. The cultural origin of the majority of Israelis, both Sephardim and Ashkenasim, is European, and they imported their culture into the Middle East with the establishment of the Israeli state. Hence not only the current conflict, but the very origins of division in the region and why the Arab leaders were so against mass immigration in the first place because they knew that their culture would be undermined. I agree also that Anti-semitism is the wrong term, it should really be anti-Judaism, but that, really, is simply semantics, however it is misleading, because in reality, it is the Arab peoples that are suffering from anti-semitism both from Israel itself, and the wider Western community. Britain did all that it could to prevent mass immigration into the Palestinian mandate during WW2, because it needed the support of the Arab leadership, and it made promises to those Arab leaders that it had no intention of keeping. Once they had served their purpose, all bets were off, and it became more strategically important to install a government that was sympathetic to Allied objectives, hence the agreement that Israel be established, as well as the shift in loyalty towards elevating and supporting the Bin Saud's dominance of Arabian culture.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 05:03 PM
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now if only people cared enough about other people who experienced genocide. this one has been beat to death leave the horse alone already it is dead



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by The GUT
 


I have skipped through the replies on the thread concerned with the limited amount of time I have tonight, I should have a bit of extra time tomorrow though...you have made some great points, that given a bit more time I would like to get into in a little more depth. I have little bit more time now, and with business out of the way, I would like to address what you said about Harry E Barnes because that one has been playing on my mind most of all, and it links to a number of references you have made to a favourite subject of interest for me, the Dulles brothers.

With the power of retrospect, I can definately see where Barnes was coming from. If you get the time what this is highly enlightening as to the true origins of the First World War...



Now while I think that he was misguided in his assumptions that the aggressors were France and Russia, I do wonder where he drew that conclusion from, because we now know, as Rob Newman outlines with great simplicity, that Britain largely engineered that conflict in order to prevent the development of the Berlin to Baghdah railway, a scheme, which if successful, would have threatened UK trade dominance by diminishing the reliance on sea trade, of which Britain had hegemony. So, effectively, while Barnes knew that Germany was not the aggressor, other than by looking after it's own economic expansion and development, he was mistakenly lead in his conclusion that France and Russia were the cause. Now, if he was wrong about that, why was he harassed by British SIS for example. Surely they would let him go about promoting such a view if he was that far off the mark, unless they were harassing him to make him believe he had hit the nail on the head. I find that all very curious.

Onto his views regarding the Treaty of Versailles, again he was right, it was a travesty. Germany was made to accept complete responsibility as aggressors for that war, and made to pay reparation to anyone and everyone who came up with a claim, which completely bankrupted the country and in doing so, prevented the industrial expansion that had so threatened Britain. In the subsequent civil war in Germany that eventually led to the rise of Nazism, it was Article 231 of the Treaty of Versailles that was most often cited, and it was that clause that directly led to the desire to restore German honour that became Hitler's battle cry...

Article 231 was written by John Foster Dulles with the assistance of his brother Allen.

The same John Foster Dulles who worked for Sullivan and Cromwell, who would later, under the Dawes Plan, organise US loans to aid the Germans in paying those reparations. Sullivan and Cromwell were also the legal representatives of the American arm of IG Farben, as well as a number of other US firms such as Ford, GM, ITT who invested heavily in Germany, and established links with the Schroder Bank, Allen was on the Schroder's Board. When Allen Dulles was installed as the US liaison in Berne Switzerland he was ideally placed to ensure that their clients interests were protected, and to shift those holdings from the Schroders, to the more acceptable Enskillda Bank in Sweden, which similarly, became the holding bank for a number of British investors who had shares in companies such as Bosch. Subsequently, it of course became even more important that those investments be shrouded due to the forced labour programmes coming to light. While genocide was not an international crime prior to Nuremberg, profiting from slavery was.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by votan
now if only people cared enough about other people who experienced genocide. this one has been beat to death leave the horse alone already it is dead


Had you read the OP you would find that re-examining the Holocaust was not really my point. I agree that certain aspects have been 'beaten to death', however, there are also aspects of the discussion, particularly when it comes to the ongoing arguments of the denial movement that continue to seek to limit the discussion as to some aspects of the atrocities committed, and indeed the motivations for those atrocities. For example, given the Aryan/race context, I consider the systemised murder of the Reich Jews, that which is literally termed the Holocaust, to be of lesser interest to the genocides that occurred in the wake of the Wehrmacht advances into Poland and later onward into Russia.

While the genocide that occurred against the Reich Jews facilitated by the establishment of the Death Camps was 'functionalist', necessitated by Nazi policy, and the inability of the emigration programme to meet demand, the genocides in the East were 'intentionalist' and based largely on Eugenic theory and the perception of the slavic and ethnic Poles as belonging to the 'degenerate races'. Furthermore, it was given additional impetus due to the Auslander programme, which had promised Germans who had emigrated abroad, land and homes if they returned. Mass murder was made necessary, with the greatest of urgency, to meet the demands of those who had responded to this offer in great numbers and were currently living in camps.

While the horse may be dead, we are far from a universal understanding for the cause of death. The case, therefore, remains open.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 

The Dulles Boys. Architects of Malfeasance. Economically, Politically, Philosophically, Ethically.

I'll NEVER understand the historical "death-by-a-thousnd-cuts" the way you do. I do feel, however, that one can step back and grasp the larger picture in meaningful ways sometimes.

Maybe through their close association with Nazi elements they saw a very powerful political structure, minus some of the Germanic elements and predispositions, that could be used to build a brave new world-power, so to speak, at some point in the future? Always thinking ahead those two.

Not "Nazis" themselves but something akin to Nazi admirers maybe? Did they understand how close that system had come to complete control? If one was in a position to know where it went wrong, one might be able to make a new version work.

When I look around, I can't say I don't see something like that coming into focus.

Thanks for the vid, I'll check that out.



posted on Aug, 25 2013 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by votan
now if only people cared enough about other people who experienced genocide. this one has been beat to death leave the horse alone already it is dead


Had you read the OP you would find that re-examining the Holocaust was not really my point. I agree that certain aspects have been 'beaten to death', however, there are also aspects of the discussion, particularly when it comes to the ongoing arguments of the denial movement that continue to seek to limit the discussion as to some aspects of the atrocities committed, and indeed the motivations for those atrocities. For example, given the Aryan/race context, I consider the systemised murder of the Reich Jews, that which is literally termed the Holocaust, to be of lesser interest to the genocides that occurred in the wake of the Wehrmacht advances into Poland and later onward into Russia.

While the genocide that occurred against the Reich Jews facilitated by the establishment of the Death Camps was 'functionalist', necessitated by Nazi policy, and the inability of the emigration programme to meet demand, the genocides in the East were 'intentionalist' and based largely on Eugenic theory and the perception of the slavic and ethnic Poles as belonging to the 'degenerate races'. Furthermore, it was given additional impetus due to the Auslander programme, which had promised Germans who had emigrated abroad, land and homes if they returned. Mass murder was made necessary, with the greatest of urgency, to meet the demands of those who had responded to this offer in great numbers and were currently living in camps.

While the horse may be dead, we are far from a universal understanding for the cause of death. The case, therefore, remains open.


I did read the whole post but has de evolved to just that .. re examining it...

really don't know what there is to understand that has not already been covered.. I just don't see the point to the discussion anymore or even engaging the deniers.

It may continue to be open to you after all the years of discussion and study on this topic.. there are other cases that have not received as much attention that can probably give an outlook that can help with this one.... however no one really cares about other people or their cases... people are just enamored with this one.

I think the reason for that is because that would require actual research into the matter instead of just discussing existing research conducted by others.

I am not longer interested in this topic but if people are I will show my self out enjoy





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