A Critique of "Living in the Moment"

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by WhiteHat

 

Than what is wrong with letting it go voluntarily if it keep us from living the present moment?

That's the key. IF it keeps us from living in the present, it's extreme. I agree with BardingtheBard also that forgetting the past altogether is the other extreme, which isn't realistic either and can be dangerous, as the OP stated.

But we won't forget the past at will. We are what we are, and whatever experience shaped us in the past, the damage is done. The form is shaped. We'll just stop rummaging over it over and over again, as we generally do, and enjoy more the present.
I won't forget my kids, for example, if I live in the now. They are part of my reality. I won't forget my language, and my knowledge won't disappear from my mind, just like they don't disappear when I get engrossed in a movie. Only the emotional garbage will go which is not reality anyway but only perpetuated in my mind.

“Drink your tea slowly and reverently, as if it is the axis on which the world earth revolves - slowly, evenly, without rushing toward the future.”
― Thích Nhất Hạnh

You are semi correct in that 'everyone' lives in the moment by default, yet wrong in the assumption that it is about forgetting the 'past' and not looking towards the future. Living in the Moment Philosophy is about Awareness of EACH MOMENT and NOT rushing to the Next Future Moment. Trying to pry as many moments out of each second of life. It is about living Fully and with awareness elevated to forefront, instead of being on autopilot, and NOT letting Life Run you..

It is a Very Difficult Path, and to make light of it only shows that you have never really given it the Work out to be able to correctly Judge it's worthiness. My personal walk on this path began long ago in my experiments with Time, as a Subjective and Objective Feature of Our Reality. I came to understand that the Only Power Humans really have is when they are in Awareness of the Moments they are living, and thus are fully aware of how Life Bifurcates into endless Possibilities at the Branch they stand upon 'in a moment of awareness" This path, that path.

I tend to add pieces of THE FLOW philosophy by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi to my personal working belief system. Here is a brief description from WIKI

In his seminal work, Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience, Csíkszentmihályi outlines his theory that people are happiest when they are in a state of flow— a state of concentration or complete absorption with the activity at hand and the situation. It is a state in which people are so involved in an activity that nothing else seems to matter.[8] The idea of flow is identical to the feeling of being in the zone or in the groove. The flow state is an optimal state of intrinsic motivation, where the person is fully immersed in what they are doing. This is a feeling everyone has at times, characterized by a feeling of great absorption, engagement, fulfillment, and skill—and during which temporal concerns (time, food, ego-self, etc.) are typically ignored

The state spoken of here as Concentration or complete absorption is what is meant by Awareness and Living in the Moment to me and the state of being I try to consistently generate in my life. VERY HARD TO DO, but well worth the Effort.

you said:

Saying that “we should live in the moment” is about as fundamental as saying “we should exist”. It’s a case of pointing out the obvious and not in the least bit a life-altering profundity.

and I can only say you have missed the point entirely, and if you are willing to look at this again with an open mind, leave these kinds of thoughts at the door, they are circular and not of any value to what is being discussed, which is Awareness of the Moment. Not Pointing out the Obvious, that makes itself very clear to anyone who lives an aware ''in the moment life'.


Again it is about awareness, and awareness with a depth that looks beyond obvious statements of folly. I have yet to meet anyone who practices this philosophy who thinks as you have described, I am sure some out there may be this shallow in thought, but most who take up this are not.
Again, it is about awareness.
One of the best exercises I tell people to start with is from Thich Nhat Hanh's great book PEACE IS EVERY STEP.

When you wash dishes, wash dishes.

Try it,, it is NOT easy. Wash dishes without thought of anything but the actions of each moment, washing dishes. When you accomplish this,, you can move into Living in the moment.

a favorite quote( From Good Reads/Thích Nhất Hạnh > Quotes)
is:

“People usually consider walking on water or in thin air a miracle. But I think the real miracle is not to walk either on water or in thin air, but to walk on earth. Every day we are engaged in a miracle which we don't even recognize: a blue sky, white clouds, green leaves, the black, curious eyes of a child -- our own two eyes. All is a miracle.”

Because we are Not aware of the Moment, we have 'other, more important things on our minds'
Taking in all of the above mentioned happens most when in the Flow of the Moment for me, and is well worth working for in one's life.

another quote of his i will leave you with is

“When we are mindful, deeply in touch with the present moment, our understanding of what is going on deepens, and we begin to be filled with acceptance, joy, peace and love.”
― Thích Nhất Hạnh

But I will finish with a more Western source that verges on crossing over into Living in the Moment by Horace:
(from Wiki again)

Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero – "Seize the Day, putting as little trust as possible in the next (day)[/future]"

edit on 8/24/2013 by EarthCitizen23 because: added source

reply to post by EarthCitizen23

You are semi correct in that 'everyone' lives in the moment by default, yet wrong in the assumption that it is about forgetting the 'past' and not looking towards the future. Living in the Moment Philosophy is about Awareness of EACH MOMENT and NOT rushing to the Next Future Moment. Trying to pry as many moments out of each second of life. It is about living Fully and with awareness elevated to forefront, instead of being on autopilot, and NOT letting Life Run you..

It is a Very Difficult Path, and to make light of it only shows that you have never really given it the Work out to be able to correctly Judge it's worthiness. My personal walk on this path began long ago in my experiments with Time, as a Subjective and Objective Feature of Our Reality. I came to understand that the Only Power Humans really have is when they are in Awareness of the Moments they are living, and thus are fully aware of how Life Bifurcates into endless Possibilities at the Branch they stand upon 'in a moment of awareness" This path, that path.

I tend to add pieces of THE FLOW philosophy by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi to my personal working belief system. Here is a brief description from WIKI

The state spoken of here as Concentration or complete absorption is what is meant by Awareness and Living in the Moment to me and the state of being I try to consistently generate in my life. VERY HARD TO DO, but well worth the Effort.

If by "awareness of the moment" you mean focus, yes I would agree that focus has its benefits. I am not in disagreement here, except for perhaps I appreciate the use of the word focus over "awareness of the moment".

Again it is about awareness, and awareness with a depth that looks beyond obvious statements of folly. I have yet to meet anyone who practices this philosophy who thinks as you have described, I am sure some out there may be this shallow in thought, but most who take up this are not.
Again, it is about awareness.
One of the best exercises I tell people to start with is from Thich Nhat Hanh's great book PEACE IS EVERY STEP.

When you wash dishes, wash dishes.

Try it,, it is NOT easy. Wash dishes without thought of anything but the actions of each moment, washing dishes. When you accomplish this,, you can move into Living in the moment.

a favorite quote( From Good Reads/Thích Nhất Hạnh > Quotes)

And I think your description shallow, if not entirely superficial. I think it neglects the fact that we do think. Who doesn't think when one washes the dishes? It takes a sheer act of willpower to not think during such a menial task. And for what? Denying the thoughts is not living in the moment, it is denying something that naturally occurs in the moment. So I believe this doctrine is in fact self-refuting, and merely another way to escape oneself.

Because we are Not aware of the Moment, we have 'other, more important things on our minds'
Taking in all of the above mentioned happens most when in the Flow of the Moment for me, and is well worth working for in one's life.

another quote of his i will leave you with is

“When we are mindful, deeply in touch with the present moment, our understanding of what is going on deepens, and we begin to be filled with acceptance, joy, peace and love.”
― Thích Nhất Hạnh

What "other things" can someone have in the mind other than what he is thinking about in the present? He is thinking in the moment. He is focusing on something in the moment. He already lives in the moment, with or without acknowledging it. Nothing can change that.

Now if one wants to escape his thoughts, I can see this focusing as beneficial. But nothing is changed besides what he thinks about.

I feel that the state of being refered to when people talk of this has it's utility in certain cases.... though I also think that it can be taken to an extreme, and held onto long after it's usefulness has passed!


It is good advice for someone who is struggling with reaching a "clean slate" for transformation.
In focusing on letting go of past reflections and future creations, a person who has had a past they view in a negative light can limit their re-creating of it.

If you had a very difficult and painful childhood, for example... if you were abused, then remembering those circumstances and thinking about them tends to influence the kinds of expectations and potentials for your future.
You can re-create (without meaning to) circumstances of victimization over and over.

The way to create new positive type of memories and past is through focusing on experiences that are positive, in the moment they are happening- turning full mental focus on the sensual pleasure of eating a bite of a peach, or holding the hand of a loved one, causes it to impact the mind and body more intensely, and memories of the experience influence a basic "life is good" concept into your future creations of present.

In other words, this serves when one wishes to re-program their mind and body.It facilitates change, transformation, process.

In any case, the past and future exists for the subconscious mind, no matter what we willingly choose to focus on as a individualized consciousness- those past experiences have left a print upon our body and it's behaviors and reflexes. No matter how focused and smiley-glazed eyed in the moment you are, your body will still flinch at the vision of an object you used to be beaten violently with. Subconsciously, you will still have that past influencing the present. But through a long period of this practice one can instill new reflexes and behaviors.

Where one can deny the usefulness of the practice is in simultaneously rejecting value of sensual experience.
Then it is purely and simply a way of running away from experiencing this world- not re-programming the body and mind, but detaching from them. I personally feel this is a waste of energy and life.

I have also started a thread in the past on my observation that this is a commonly used method for cults and various agents who are motivated by the intent to re-program people with their own agenda. It is part of the self-effacing stage of brain washing. This could be fine if you have a chosen the teacher or school of thought or practice, and want to be transformed and implanted by them, but I highly recommend being vigilant and aware of this in the cases where it might not be your desire.

The more focused upon the moment you are, the more the person, words, or context you find yourself with will impact your body and mind deeply. So if I can get you to enter that state while I am talking or writing to you, then that works in my favor if I'd like to dominate, guide or control you!

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

You said in response to my post:

And I think your description shallow, if not entirely superficial. I think it neglects the fact that we do think. Who doesn't think when one washes the dishes? It takes a sheer act of willpower to not think during such a menial task. And for what? Denying the thoughts is not living in the moment, it is denying something that naturally occurs in the moment. So I believe this doctrine is in fact self-refuting, and merely another way to escape oneself.

There is a big difference between shallow and Simple. Again your missing the point.

Yes, we think.
Actually this philosophy points out the fact we think, and that our unfettered thoughts Hinder our progress as humans. In fact the Internal Chatter that most have going on inside their heads is a big factor as to why the world is the way it is today.

We don't let a Moment sit with us without our internal commentary taking place.
The point of the exercise is to push aside the constant internal dialog and get to the real meat of the situation,, which would be 'Washing dishes".
With Awareness.
Without Self and Ego trying to win out with '''Look at Me" thoughts.
Those thoughts are recognized, and allowed to flow by without amplification, to better ''see'' the 'Moment".

yes, you are VERY CORRECT that it takes something akin to sheer willpower, to NOT think during such menial tasks. Once you start the practice you begin to realize you have very little control over your own mind,,
Another benefit to this practice gaining control over the Mindless Self chatter, is Peace of Mind.

It isn't about escaping Oneself at all, but finding your True Core Self underneath all of the Crap you call,, "Thinking"

Focus next time you do a task,,, any simple task,,, the one I offered was Washing dishes.

See if you can set aside your ego and self dialog long enough to Enjoy what the Moment really OFFERS to You.

It is alright with me if you think this

doctrine is in fact self-refuting, and merely another way to escape oneself.

I know you haven't given it a fair shot, so you don't know what you are talking about,,
not meaning to offend, but I believe you can't judge unless you have done the work.

Let me know when you can turn off that Constant Internal Chatter long enough
to see Reality from a Bigger Vantage Point.

The Moment.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

In your response to my post above you said:

What "other things" can someone have in the mind other than what he is thinking about in the present? He is thinking in the moment. He is focusing on something in the moment. He already lives in the moment, with or without acknowledging it. Nothing can change that.

What 'other things" can someone have in the mind other than what he is thinking about in the present?

Acceptance,
Joy,
Peace and Love

sounds fru fru and all Rainbows,, but it works,,,

do you have a better philosophy that can show results like Mindfulness can?

Living in the Moment is really Mindfulness.

Look into some of the great works by greater minds than mine and what they have to say on this.

Again, no offense,
but I don't think you have done the work that qualifies you to judge this philosophy.

If you have, please let us know the steps that led to your conclusions.

reply to post by EarthCitizen23

There is a big difference between shallow and Simple. Again your missing the point.

Yes, we think.
Actually this philosophy points out the fact we think, and that our unfettered thoughts Hinder our progress as humans. In fact the Internal Chatter that most have going on inside their heads is a big factor as to why the world is the way it is today.

We don't let a Moment sit with us without our internal commentary taking place.
The point of the exercise is to push aside the constant internal dialog and get to the real meat of the situation,, which would be 'Washing dishes".
With Awareness.
Without Self and Ego trying to win out with '''Look at Me" thoughts.
Those thoughts are recognized, and allowed to flow by without amplification, to better ''see'' the 'Moment".

I would have to disagree with this. There is nothing that shows that unfettered thoughts hinder progress or are the reason why the world is the way it is today. Actually the world is a better place then it once was, insinuating that one might not be quite aware as one thinks.

I think that one who must force himself to be aware of the moment, and therefore forcing the moment itself, should get out more. One cannot appreciate the moment without thinking about it.

yes, you are VERY CORRECT that it takes something akin to sheer willpower, to NOT think during such menial tasks. Once you start the practice you begin to realize you have very little control over your own mind,,
Another benefit to this practice gaining control over the Mindless Self chatter, is Peace of Mind.

It isn't about escaping Oneself at all, but finding your True Core Self underneath all of the Crap you call,, "Thinking"

Focus next time you do a task,,, any simple task,,, the one I offered was Washing dishes.

See if you can set aside your ego and self dialog long enough to Enjoy what the Moment really OFFERS to You.

It is alright with me if you think this

doctrine is in fact self-refuting, and merely another way to escape oneself.


I know you haven't given it a fair shot, so you don't know what you are talking about,,
not meaning to offend, but I believe you can't judge unless you have done the work.

Let me know when you can turn off that Constant Internal Chatter long enough
to see Reality from a Bigger Vantage Point.

The Moment.

Focusing is easy when one isn't bored of the task at hand. Will power isn't necessary when one requires focus, for instance, climbing up a cliff. Washing the dishes doesn't require focus.

I'm not offended that you think I haven't given it a fair shot. I am quite confident I already live in the moment, and do so every second of every day. When you say I haven't done the work, you are saying I choose not to force myself to not think. That I agree with. I enjoy thinking.

Do you Text while Driving? Just curious, I bet you might, as you think that "Thinking" is paramount and maybe have the belief that you can multitask. It is a common misconception that we can truly multitask,, we Can Not.

That is a common misconception of Mindfulness, that those who practice it don't think,,, well I too Like to think
and have thought a lot on this subject.

It might be better to compare this to Listening to music,, I mean Good soul stirring Music.

What ever your taste,, if you really Listen,,

Thought arise.

More Music,, and more thoughts arise,,
but most of us return to Listen to the Music (At least the First time we hear a piece) and brush the thoughts away.

Why?

Because there is a Big World behind all the thought. And Music is Without Words itself,, I am not talking about songs,, just music.
Or Walking.

The LIVING Experience of a Moment,,, say such as taking a walk is what is important,,, not the thought,,,

"" I AM WALKING"
toe to heel,, foot flat on ground,, move next leg ,,, foot down''' so on

No that is not what we are talking about,,
It is the Living experience of the Moment.

and Being Mindful and Aware Enhances this Experience Ten times what Thinking may do for it.

I am Not against thinking,, on the contrary,, I wish more would think,,
but Being Mindful of Each Living Moment, with an awareness that heightens one's ability to function and FLOW is what 'Living in the Moment is about"

I am sure you live in your moments,,
but to me,
still sounds like a lot of excess chatter Internally may be hindering you from hearing the Real Music of Life.

Great OP by the way,,, even if we might disagree,, this is something that should be discussed as many have a false assumption what this Philosophy is really about in action.

The past is real. So is the future.

All pasts and futures are present, eternal and immutable, in the landscape of spacetime.

We pass through this landscape upon our journey. To our memories of the way we along which we have come, we give the name Past. And to what lies ahead upon our journey, we give the name Future.

The future exists just as surely as the past. It awaits our passage. We do not create or shape it. It is there before we came to it, and it remains there, unchanged, when we have passed through it.

Originally posted by Deetermined
P.S. I already sent itsnowagain a U2U as soon as this thread popped up. My bad.

edit on 24-8-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

I did not receive a U2 from you about this thread.

reply to post by EarthCitizen23


I really appreciate your views and am enjoying this back and forth. Although we differ in approach, I think we are both trying to attain the same ideal – mindfulness as you call it. Allow me to respond.

Do you Text while Driving? Just curious, I bet you might, as you think that "Thinking" is paramount and maybe have the belief that you can multitask. It is a common misconception that we can truly multitask,, we Can Not.

That is a common misconception of Mindfulness, that those who practice it don't think,,, well I too Like to think
and have thought a lot on this subject.

It might be better to compare this to Listening to music,, I mean Good soul stirring Music.

What ever your taste,, if you really Listen,,

Thought arise.

Texting while driving is illegal where I live. But I have texted while driving before. So I do understand what you're saying. It is a difficult and very dangerous to think one can multi-task in this manner.

I commute to work – 45 minutes each way every day. I used to listen to music, changed to audiobooks, and have finally turned the stereo off; it's just me and the moment. But the reason I've done this is not just for the peace and quiet, or to enjoy the scenery more, but to give my mind the necessary chaos for natural thought, where it's not riding another's line of thinking – say a song or a paragraph of spoken prose – but "flowing" as you might say into thoughts of my own creation. I found this helps in my artistic endeavours.

So I might have to agree with you on this point.

More Music,, and more thoughts arise,,
but most of us return to Listen to the Music (At least the First time we hear a piece) and brush the thoughts away.

Why?

Because there is a Big World behind all the thought. And Music is Without Words itself,, I am not talking about songs,, just music.
Or Walking.

The LIVING Experience of a Moment,,, say such as taking a walk is what is important,,, not the thought,,,

"" I AM WALKING"
toe to heel,, foot flat on ground,, move next leg ,,, foot down''' so on

No that is not what we are talking about,,
It is the Living experience of the Moment.

and Being Mindful and Aware Enhances this Experience Ten times what Thinking may do for it.

I am Not against thinking,, on the contrary,, I wish more would think,,
but Being Mindful of Each Living Moment, with an awareness that heightens one's ability to function and FLOW is what 'Living in the Moment is about"

I am sure you live in your moments,,
but to me,
still sounds like a lot of excess chatter Internally may be hindering you from hearing the Real Music of Life.

Great OP by the way,,, even if we might disagree,, this is something that should be discussed as many have a false assumption what this Philosophy is really about in action.

When I wrote the OP, I considered what this doctrine would be like if it was taken to the extreme, and I imagined someone concerned only with their immediate desires, not worrying about the consequences because, since there is no future, there is no consequence and there is no worry. I see people like this all the time, and I fear the "live in the moment" doctrine might justify such a careless spin on the world. I see it being abused by the naive. But your take on it shows rationality, and methods that may prove useful. I don't see this carelessness in your views.

But I can't help but feel it is resignation from life. For myself, I'm hoping to reconcile everything about myself, learn it all, experience it all, the good and the bad, the chatter and the silence, the highs and lows, the past and the future, the happiness and the despair, into an instance of life and living. I suppose it's something like Nietzsche's Amor Fati . I love fate.

In that sense, I am sort of sticking up for the "bad" in this case – the chatter, the wandering mind, the suffering, the worry – because they are necessary, purposeful and have utility. I believe that rather than silence them, they can be utilized; there is untapped and under utilized potential there; but of course I haven't quite worked that out.

reply to post by Bluesma

The more focused upon the moment you are, the more the person, words, or context you find yourself with will impact your body and mind deeply. So if I can get you to enter that state while I am talking or writing to you, then that works in my favor if I'd like to dominate, guide or control you!

I absolutely agree with this. I love your thinking. It seems intuitive that one might be more impressionable in this state, that one would remember more vividly, maybe even subconsciously. Is there any study into this?

No matter how focused and smiley-glazed eyed in the moment you are

I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets this mental image.

reply to post by Astyanax

The past is real. So is the future.

All pasts and futures are present, eternal and immutable, in the landscape of spacetime.

We pass through this landscape upon our journey. To our memories of the way we along which we have come, we give the name Past. And to what lies ahead upon our journey, we give the name Future.

The future exists just as surely as the past. It awaits our passage. We do not create or shape it. It is there before we came to it, and it remains there, unchanged, when we have passed through it.

Exactly right. When we use past and future, we are considering the present – how it is remembered and the possibility of what comes next.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I did not receive a U2 from you about this thread.

If it's any consolation, I did not write this thread in response to our earlier discussion.

It seems your reputation precedes you.

Originally posted by NiNjABackflip


But I can't help but feel it is resignation from life. For myself, I'm hoping to reconcile everything about myself, learn it all, experience it all, the good and the bad, the chatter and the silence, the highs and lows, the past and the future, the happiness and the despair, into an instance of life and living. I suppose it's something like Nietzsche's Amor Fati . I love fate.

In a way you sacrifice 'your life' for life itself. 'Your life' is the past thoughts of you and the future is future thoughts of you.
Life is alive now and belongs to no one.

Are you willing to give up 'your' separate dream? 'Your' separate dream is what divides you from real life and makes life uncomfortable.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

In a way you sacrifice 'your life' for life itself. 'Your life' is the past thoughts of you and the future is future thoughts of you.
Life is alive now and belongs to no one.

Are you willing to give up 'your' separate dream? 'Your' separate dream is what divides you from real life and makes one uncomfortable.

It's quite obvious it makes you uncomfortable. It's the opposite for me. I don't see such a dichotomy.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip


Life is alive now and this is where the light is - it is beautiful.
Living in past thoughts and trying to cure the future is not living in the light - it is full of fear.
One can live in the darkness of past and future or one see and hear the unconditional arising.

Thoughts arise and are also the light - the word arises now. However, the stories they tell can be deceptive.
Who are the thoughts talking about?

It is not about 'living in the moment' - it is that life is alive now. No one is 'living in the moment'.
Whatever this is has no one separate from it - this is all just happening.
Thoughts happen, sounds happen, colour happens, movement happens - all is being done and no one is separate from it - it is one.

The ocean is just waving and the waves sometimes think they are in control of the ocean - it is very distressing for a wave to think it itself separate the ocean because it will continually be fighting to stay alive. When the wave realizes that it is the ocean it has nothing left to fear - it dissolves into love.

Trying not to think means, a fragment of thought is controlling thoughts, a suppression, which is anything but a flow.
Thinking is not a problem, if i walk down the path and enjoy nature, i listen and think what a beautyful day it is, hey.. what is that? let's have a closer look... thinking is not a problem.
But if we are led by the past, which is the known, that is a problem.
And most of us are led by the past, leaving no room for the creative to come into being.
For instance, we abide by the rules of the systems that form the base of our society, or the religions and philosophies that we follow, the traditions, cultures in which we are born and which shapes us to who we are now.
And we sustain it because we can not let go of the past, we are the past, what has been.
Now can we be free from that, that to me is the main question, if not the past will be our future.

Why is it so important? see what humanity is doing to eachother, to the earth, the violence and destruction because of nationality, tradition, religion, economics, politics.

Is that how life was meant to be, or is this how we are conditioned to be.

No You and No Me - Just the Loving Awareness in Which All Appears.