A Critique of "Living in the Moment"

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The true self cannot be thought about.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? And how do you know there is a "true self"? I ask because every religion says there is a "true self", a "true nature" from which we are somehow separated and must return.

Why must we seek our true nature if it is already true?

It hears and sees all thought that arises and knows it is just happening.

Then I am curious as to why we must turn this into some profound principle if the true self is doing this automatically?

BigBrotherDarkness
You think you can recognize and become emptiness... transform into it, you can only experience it the same as experiencing form. form is not self, emptiness is not self)

I do not think I can become emptiness.

Thank you for your view on the matter.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip


The true self is where thought arises, it is the space that is all knowing. It is all seeing all knowing and ever present.

There is no need to seek your true nature - it is all there is but an individual seeks outside when there is no outside. The individual seeks in time when there is no time. The individual seeks in other when there really is no other. It is crazy stuff.

All there is is what is happening - but there is an feeling that there is something missing, more to be found - there isn't! But the one that is divided is playing the game of hide and seek. One seeks for fulfilment outside the present happening. If one realized that there is only the present happening it would be filled with the present happening but words say this can't be it - there must be more so denies the present happening in favour of thoughts of other times where it will be better. One seeks in time for' better'.
The one that is divided is scared of not being because it does not yet remember that it is 'being' all there is, all there will ever be.

There is a hiding from oneself - one is nothing and one seems to see something. One is entranced by the something and gets lost in concepts - in things. One does not want to look at the nothingness. One may feel empty inside so one goes in search of things so one does not feel bored - one denies the emptiness because one is playing the game of hiding from oneself.

When one realizes oneself as emptiness perceiving - one just sees the movie (Lila, Maya - the play of light).
God saw the light and it was good.
When one is seeking in time and space for that which will complete it - one divides oneself and one conflicts.

God pretends to be an individual.

BDBinc

That you are always aware of the present moment is not a given. Same for people that are "very physical" as they are not "grounded" in awareness of the Now, they still have their focus on desires, cravings and fear).

I ALWAYS know that my body is in the present. I NEVER get confused and think I am in the future or past.

I sometimes find my MIND is focusing on memories or imaginative potentials for future, but I am always in the NOW and it is impossible for me to be otherwise.

I guess I am the one and only person in the world that always knows this then.

Or maybe you are just wanting to believe the rest of the world is really foolish.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


The meaning of the word individual (generally understood as a person) is indivisible, an individual member of a species, human and the rest of mankind.
So no division, but whole and related.
An individual is not seeking more than this or materialistic fulfilment, i would say an individual is grounded and home.
We have a different meaning on the meaning of that word i think

But also god, can you share your understanding of god?

reply to post by earthling42


So (correct me if I am wrong) what you are saying is you think you are a whole undivided individual living among other whole individuals? It seems that you believe that some of the individuals are completely whole and some not so (who need to get enlightened) - do you think that when all the individuals get whole the world will be better?

earthling42
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

The meaning of the word individual (generally understood as a person) is indivisible, an individual member of a species, human and the rest of mankind.
So no division, but whole and related.
An individual is not seeking more than this or materialistic fulfilment, i would say an individual is grounded and home.
We have a different meaning on the meaning of that word i think

But also god, can you share your understanding of god?

This (whatever name you give it - now, here, present) is all there is. There is a thought which says 'I will be' - this implies that 'I am not now' - the game begins.
You have forgotten that you are now - you are not a person, an individual among other individuals - you are actually the present and everything happens in you.
You are just this and this includes everything.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I already said i am an human being, just like you are, without all the fuss.

There are those who follow, that can only be if the eyes are aimed at something or someone.
That can be a guru, a flag, a doctrine and so on, or they chase success, material wealth, or power and position.
People have fragmented themselves and identify them self with sect, state, nationality, rank, religious ideology, political ideology, economical ideology, all divisions which makes our society a very violent place to live in.
No laws or norms will ever change that because this disorder resides between the ears.

If one sees this clearly, it collapses, like you stated "then the world is destroyed and what is is revealed".

The world will not become a better place, but every human being who sees it for what it is, frees himself from this utter dark violent meaningless way of life.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

But why give 'here and now' a name? and why god?

First of all, thanks for discussing with us in this thread, it makes things all the more understandable if you really go into it and explain your point of view on this matter.

What i do not understand however is why you again judge individual to be a division while i already said that individual means 'member of a species, human and the rest of mankind'
We are related, not divided, that divided state is brought about through an image of yourself or me, if there is no image, there is no divided state.

There is no inner and outer, thought has created the inner and outer, so everything happening in me seems impossible, or i am not understanding you correctly.

Bluesma

BDBinc

That you are always aware of the present moment is not a given. Same for people that are "very physical" as they are not "grounded" in awareness of the Now, they still have their focus on desires, cravings and fear).

I ALWAYS know that my body is in the present. I NEVER get confused and think I am in the future or past.

I sometimes find my MIND is focusing on memories or imaginative potentials for future, but I am always in the NOW and it is impossible for me to be otherwise.

I guess I am the one and only person in the world that always knows this then.

Or maybe you are just wanting to believe the rest of the world is really foolish.

Text Purple
Wow, always when you are asleep you have self consciousness and always identify with the body.

And if/when you have a panic attack you are the only person in the world who does not get confused and think you are in the past and project it on the now.

When you are focusing your mind on past memories or imagining the future your mind is not focused on now .

What rest of the world.

.

BDBinc

Wow, always when you are asleep you have self consciousness and always identify with the body.

Of course not. I didn't think I needed to spell that out too. If I start having to clarify that self awareness is not present during most sleep states, then you will say I am "digressing".

And if/when you have a panic attack you are the only person in the world who does not get confused and think you are in the past and project it on the now.

I have a reaction in the ER of our local hopsital. When I am there, I start having tears flood out of me and I cannot control it and an urge to get out of there. I guess it is a panic attack of sorts. It stems from a experience I had there, that left an imprint on my body and mind.

Yet even while this is happening, I am able to explain to the nurses there( in between sobs) that that is what this is, that I do not really have anything very wrong with me right now- it is a conditioned reaction to this environment, based on past events.
I do not ever actually believe I am suddenly in the past.
I do not actually think the same events are unfolding in the present, nor do I provoke them to do so when in this state.

When you are focusing your mind on past memories or imagining the future your mind is not focused on now .

When my mind focuses on past memories, it is usually because some elements of the present are associated with past experiences, so I have my internal subjective world bringing up additions to my consciousness of present, not wiping out my awareness of present!
It may bring up meaning and emotion, but objective reality doesn't disappear for me in those moments. If it does for you, and you lose consciousness of your present body and environment, then I am guessing normal living is very hard if not impossible for you and you probably need permanent hospitalization. What if this happens to you when driving? Or working at a job? Or at the grocery store?

What rest of the world.

Well... I guess you're gone now? Left for the past, perhaps? This reality where there are other people is wiped out of your awareness? Geezus, I hope you don't drive a car.

earthling42
There is no inner and outer, thought has created the inner and outer, so everything happening in me seems impossible, or i am not understanding you correctly.

In the quote above - are you saying there is no inside or outside to you?
You say 'there is no inner or outer, thought has created the inner and outer' - is this how it is for you?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


If there is an inner and outer, it is a division between you (the inner) and the world (the outer).
Than one is opposed to what surrounds him, that can be pleasurable or painfull, either way it is a divided state.
It comes down to the image one has about himself that divides him from what surrounds him, so now the root is born for conflict out of which violence comes.
Some choose the outer, they live a materialistic life, some choose the inner, they life a lonely life locked up in the mind.
That image is thought, the known, which gives us a direction in life.

If there is no image, there is no division but relation, living in relation with everything.

earthling42
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

If there is an inner and outer, it is a division between you (the inner) and the world (the outer).

Do you think there is an inside you and an outside world?

reply to post by Itisnowagain


we do not create a fellow-creature nor a tree, a mountain or the ground with thoughts if that is what you ask.

reply to post by earthling42


No - that is not what was asked.

Bluesma
I ALWAYS know that my body is in the present.

No you do not always know that your body is in the present as when you are asleep you are not conscious of the body and cannot say that you know anything about the body in sleep.
Awareness is present, Awareness is primordial, consciousness is on contact, a reflection, a state of duality.

Bluesma
I NEVER get confused and think I am in the future or past.

Bluesma
I have a reaction in the ER of our local hopsital. When I am there, I start having tears flood out of me and I cannot control it and an urge to get out of there. I guess it is a panic attack of sorts. It stems from a experience I had there, that left an imprint on my body and mind.
Yet even while this is happening, I am able to explain to the nurses there( in between sobs) that that is what this is, that I do not really have anything very wrong with me right now- it is a conditioned reaction to this environment, based on past events.
I do not ever actually believe I am suddenly in the past.
I do not actually think the same events are unfolding in the present, nor do I provoke them to do so when in this state.
When my mind focuses on past memories, it is usually because some elements of the present are associated with past experiences, so I have my internal subjective world bringing up additions to my consciousness of present, not wiping out my awareness of present! It may bring up meaning and emotion, but objective reality doesn't disappear for me in those moments.

But objective reality isn’t past emotions and interpreted “meanings”. Thats duality. How can you say that your conditioned personal past emotions and (interpretations)"meanings" is Objective Reality.

People who have panic attacks are not focused in the moment and are focused on the past (with fear it will be in the future). By focusing /thinking about the past and imagining it in the moment instead of accepting the fresh moment it can repeat as you are not focused on the now, you are focused on thoughts of what happened in the past. How can one say they always feel the moment when they are focused on the past. When you add past emotions and past interpretations to the current moment you are not adding to your focus, you are wiping out focus on the moment. It stems from focusing not on the moment but on a past experience you had. Your focus is not on the moment it is on past emotions & placing past interpretations/meanings to the present moment .

Bluesma
When my mind focuses on past memories, it is usually because some elements of the present are associated with past experiences, so I have my internal subjective world bringing up additions to my consciousness of present, not wiping out my awareness of present! If it does for you, and you lose consciousness of your present body and environment, then I am guessing normal living is very hard if not impossible for you and you probably need permanent hospitalization. What if this happens to you when driving? Or working at a job? Or at the grocery store?

Being focused on the moment means not covering it up/wiping it out by past emotions memories/thoughts/interpretations . Being focused on a traumatic past experience/past memories you loose sight of the present moment.
Not being focused on past emotions, past meanings and past conditioning is a state that does not require permanent hospitalization.

This post of mine is likely far from the topic, but I'll add it while I'm allowed to do so.

Itisnowagain
reply to post by NiNjABackflip

 

The true self is where thought arises, it is the space that is all knowing. It is all seeing all knowing and ever present.

What is an arising thought? Is the mind the whereabouts of arising thought ?
What is knowing, and what is being present?

Itisnowagain
There is no need to seek your true nature - it is all there is but an individual seeks outside when there is no outside. The individual seeks in time when there is no time. The individual seeks in other when there really is no other. It is crazy stuff.

If those things ("your true nature", "outside", "time") do not exist, then what are the things that are being considered as them? Instead of answering that question, how about this: how do you know that those things don't exist?

Itisnowagain
All there is is what is happening[...]

Would the phrase which I quoted above, be so versatile as to also be a simple definition of the term everything?
Adding the above to what you've been saying; I would agree that all there is is what is happening.

What I just wrote above: would that be an example of what you are describing below (specifically in the beginning)?

Itisnowagain
[...] - but there is an feeling that there is something missing, more to be found - there isn't!

I ask because even as I know that all there is is what is happening, I still feel that something is missing.
What [I believe is driving me to feel and think so, is something...which I do not know of; does that make sense?
In other words, I am missing the knowledge of what it is that compels me to seek.]
But you are saying that nothing is missing? Then, logically, I am not truly driven by a lack of knowledge; rather, I am driven by something else. Perhaps it is the "feeling" which you mentioned. I do not know and ask you for the solution to the dilemma of seeking something that apparently does not exist.

Itisnowagain
But the one that is divided is playing the game of hide and seek.

Divided in what manner, divided by what, and how does the division occur?

Itisnowagain
One seeks for fulfilment outside the present happening. If one realized that there is only the present happening it would be filled with the present happening[...]

So by what you're saying, would it be correct to state that the "present happening" may fulfill an individual so that the seeking of unfulfilling nonexistent-things ends?
How does one realize only the "present happening"?

Itisnowagain
[...] but words say this can't be it - there must be more so [[one] denies the present happening in favour of thoughts of other times where it will be better. One seeks in time for' better'.

What is the "better"?
Also, isn't one a part of the "present happening?"
What is the correct definition of the term present happening?
Was I incorrect to state that the present happening was equivalent to all there is, or all things?
How does one even imagine all things, at once?

Itisnowagain
The one that is divided is scared of not being because it does not yet remember that it is 'being' all there is, all there will ever be.

Please, define clearly what is the "one that is divided".

Itisnowagain
There is a hiding from oneself - one is nothing and one seems to see something.

How do you, Itisnowagain, understand the existence of a "nothing"? Furthermore, please explain how "one is nothing"?
What is it to "see something", as stated in its context within my quote of you?

Itisnowagain
One is entranced by the something and gets lost in concepts - in things. One does not want to look at the nothingness.

Can you conceive of nothing, nonexistence, something which is stripped of all qualities/properties?
I do not find myself able to do so...do I have a misconception about nothingness?

Itisnowagain
One may feel empty inside so one goes in search of things so one does not feel bored - one denies the emptiness because one is playing the game of hiding from oneself.

How is that game played? Would I be consider one who is playing it right now? If so, then why?

Itisnowagain
When one realizes oneself as emptiness perceiving - one just sees the movie (Lila, Maya - the play of light).

What does emptiness perceive, and why?

Itisnowagain
God saw the light and it was good.
When one is seeking in time and space for that which will complete it - one divides oneself and one conflicts.

God pretends to be an individual.

edit on 23-9-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Shall seekers stop seeking...if they wish not to be divided and conflicted?

1Learner
Shall seekers stop seeking...if they wish not to be divided and conflicted?

Can you stop seeking just because you want to?
Isn't 'wanting' seeking?

Seeking happens until it doesn't. When seeking stops it does so all by itself.

There is no individual - there is seeking or not seeking.

1Learner

What is an arising thought? Is the mind the whereabouts of arising thought ?
What is knowing, and what is being present?

The speaking mind is thought - have a look and see where thought arises.
That which is looking is knowing the arising thought.

Thought is of the appearance - just like this screen and the words appearing on it are.

BDBinc

No you do not always know that your body is in the present as when you are asleep you are not conscious of the body and cannot say that you know anything about the body in sleep.

We've already agreed on that. I had no idea that such basic concepts like that we're talking about someone physically awake needed to be clarified for you- but that has been done.

But objective reality isn’t past emotions and interpreted “meanings”. Thats duality. How can you say that your conditioned personal past emotions and (interpretations)"meanings" is Objective Reality.

Apparently you didn't read what I have written- that my internal subjective reality brings up associations of emotion and meaning.
I am aware of these at the same time that I remain aware of the external objective reality, in which objects, space and time exist without any meaning.
I do not have one "wiped out" by the other. I remain consciously aware of both subjective and objective realities.

That is "duality" for you? Okay. Call it whatever you wish. It feels rather normal and balanced to me.
Wholeness does seem to encompass "opposites" - self/other, inner/outer, dark/ light, positive/negative, yin/ yang...

People who have panic attacks are not focused in the moment and are focused on the past (with fear it will be in the future). By focusing /thinking about the past and imagining it in the moment instead of accepting the fresh moment it

As I desribed in my own experience, others I have had, and many of the people I work with in equitherapy, the conscious mind can do all the accepting it wants- but it has for partner the subconscious mind and the physical body, which is half of the experience of being in a physical manifestation.

The physical body has various automatic systems for reproduction, survival... it grasps and holds onto memories in the brain, the rest fo the nervous system, the skin, the muscle. If you practice any sport , or physical skill such as an instrument, then you are aware of the process you need to do to integrate muscle memories of specific movement, automatic associations, so that the bases for the skill are set and the mind can be "freed up" to be creative.

This same system of conditioning and automated response can work in ways countrary to the conscious mind too- it can get programmed unintentionally. Whether the programming was intentional or not, once made, the mind is then limited in it's ability to influence the reactions.
A progressive program is necessary for change then.

My point being- it is not in simply changing your mind, or your thought, that such problems as panic attacks disappear. In such a case, the more the person focuses on the immediate present environment, the more the body will react if that environment has triggers.
Panic attacks do not stem from the person thinking about the past.

Being focused on the moment means not covering it up/wiping it out by past emotions memories/thoughts/interpretations .

Again, I am not sure why you experience past memories/emotions/meanings (the subjective reality) covering up or wiping out your consciousness of present external objective reality.

This is usually the symptom of mental illness, such as schizophrenia, or psychosis. I have sometimes suspected it can also happen to people who are just extremely creative, with a very strong imagination.
That can probably be used well in creative arts. But can obviously be a problem when it comes to interaction in the objective reality with other individuals around.

...sigh... so here we are, back to my original thought- these grounding techniques are probably very useful for people who are not very grounded, or down to earth.