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It is the same thing, the temple is the entrance into the abyss, there are no two Abzus like there are no two Apsus.
The Abzu is not a deity in Sumerian culture, it is not who you state.
Yes but that does not make the Abzu what you say.
Then come up with a carving from sumerian culture depicting the abzu as a serpent, or with stuff from the tablets, you won't find it.
The Sumerian cylinder seal represents something else, it is the start of agriculture, it may be part of the Abzu in concept but it is not the Abzu, it is a representation of the start of agricultural season, it has to do with the the agricultural seasons, the start of culture, civilisation, it's what the seal represents. Agri-cultural season.(culture)
What scholars, and about evolving myths that is the problem, you must check every culture and get rid of the evolution and just keep the seed, the truth because evolving it becomes something else.
If Summer is the glory then Babylon is the Old, the fall, the infection of the Sumerian culture. You know what they say after summer comes fall. Not that I want to be critical but that is what Babylon sounds to me, like an old lady, BAB, BABA, old lady. Baby-lon is the fallen counterpart of the Sumerians with made up things added on top of the sumerian stories.
Not that babylonian culture is not relevant but you have to eliminate all the additional stuff that is not found in sumerian culture, babylonian culture is useful because it contains some elements that have been lost in the Sumerian culture, like broken tablets that are incomplete can be found in babylonian culture as a duplicate but with additions to it so one must be careful how it interprets them.
Yes, it does, and I have pointed out the Sumerian myths that show this.
SIGH. I already did. I pointed exactly WHICH MYTHS. I also told you exactly which book to look at in order to locate the cylinder seals I am referring to, and I even told you the plate numbers.
I've pointed out exactly which scholars, along with their interpretations and translations. As to the rest of the post, and I'm not trying to be mean here, but let's say I have trouble understanding your errant trains of thought.
The evolution of mythology is not that hard to comprehend. It really isn't. All you've done is taken what I've told you, twisted it around, and repeated it back to me, as your own. All the while still managing to misunderstand it.
Come up with information from the tablets and post it here.
And I told you that it's not it, that enkis temple is just the entrence into the Abzu.
The abzu is not a female, it's not anything, later in babylonian myths it gets' interpreted as a main masculine deity.
That is your interpretation, you quoted no sources, it's just your saying.
You stated things that are not true.
Originally posted by CodyOutlaw
You know what, Pepsi?
I'm starting to think you're being deliberately obtuse.
You do know that the myths I'm referring to are written on the tablets, don't you?
I mean, you've read them all, right?
I even told you which ones.
Nope, you're just plain wrong.
I never said He was female.
See my answer above.
Speiser and Kramer, Pepsi, Speiser and Kramer.
If you knew anything about these things, you'd already know those names.
Also: Father Bergmann, Dr. Edmund Gordon.
There were over 5,000 fragments and tablets, scattered in museums all over the world, which were painstakingly put together, translated and presented by Kramer, Speiser et al.
These are the real sources, Pepsi. I told you, it's not just my professional opinion, it is from a long line of distinguished professional opinions.
ABZU/KUR/ASAG = DEITY/PLACE
You know what, Pepsi?
I'm starting to think you're being deliberately obtuse.
Abzu (apsû) is depicted as a deity only in the Babylonian creation epic
No you did not, post the source here like everybody else, with the external quote.
You have to post the material here, the exact things we are interesting in.
You don't just say something and say go search there, you have to back it up, post it here, from the content you are talking about.
Exactly the abzu is not a deity in Sumerian culture.
Post the information here, where it states such thing about the Abzu
Because you stated things that are not true, you mixed it with the babylonian culture.
You see, Pepsi, I've had students like you before.
I told you where to find it. I told you how to find it.
But, I'm not going to do all the work for you.
Yes, He is.
Three different things, all of them Abzu.
I'm not going to sit here and transcribe ANE textbooks and articles for you, Pepsi.
I've given you the references.
Stop being lazy.
In there you will find his opinions on Kur/Abzu/Asag, along with his comparisons between Sumerian and Babylonian literature. Don't go to wiki for this kind of stuff, go to the source.
I am not your student.
With what you teach I can only see your students have problems, you also mixed the pairs wrong.
Beyond that I would never take lessons from a satanist, it's against my being.
Satan teaches perverted things, as in "twisted"
It's clear that what you state is invalid, with no material presented
The abzu is the watery abyss, it has nothing to do with deities, they may live in the abzu but they are not the abzu, nammu her self lives in the abyss, this would make her also come from the abyss.
First the abyss, then her then the rest of the gods. This would mean that she also was made from the abzu, and the gods were made from her. Humans were made/fashoned from the abzu, this makes the abzu a sort of life water that god made. It is interesting that in other books this entities fall into the abyss, like many books, bible, the book of enoch.
Yes, thankfully for me, otherwise I'd be depressed.
If you were, however, you wouldn't be so ignorant.
Well, that's because you are biased, prejudiced, and small-minded.
PLENTY of material presented, from the most reputable sources possible in this area of study. It's not my fault that you are lazy and deliberately obtuse.
Freshwater areas on land
Originally posted by Sigismundus
reply to post by pepsi78
Now, now Pepsi Dear…
Don’t blow a gasket. Take a deep breath.
And TRY to think clearly for a change on this Thread.
But first, here’s some pertinent Dialogue from a popular film which seems very apropos to your current befuddled frame of mind (and you DO like films, don’t you?)
Are you doing that on Purpose…or can’t you make up your mind?
That’s just the Trouble – I CAN’T make up my mind: I haven’t got a Brain !
How can you talk if you ‘haven’t got a Brain…’?
SCARECROW: (trying to think hard for a second)
I don’t know. But…some people without Brains do an AWFUL LOT of talking !
Did you not even know that?
So why did you waste 50+ posts trying to claim that EL means HIM in Latin, when the word is Paleo Hebrew and is cognate with the Ugaritig ‘qllu, meaning generically ‘divine-Power’, ‘invisible-Force’, ‘Nature’s Will’ etc. or as a proper Noun (look it up) meaning, Bull-EL, the chief deity of the Ugaritic Pantheon (the head of a family at least 70 (and as many as 240, depending on the Ugartic Divine List you consult, and discounting certain overlapping & syncretistic denotions) different / separate clan-gods – reflected in say, Exodus chapter 32:8ff
The name El (the High, He, God) later may become one of the Lord of Jews, Jehovah, then of Muslim's Allah.
Where it appears that YHWH (i.e. Yahweh) is assumed to be one of the 70 Sons of the Canaanite Chief god EL-ELYON of Ugarit (EL also had a shrine in Jebus, apparently, if you believe the Melek-Tzaddiq story in Gen 15).
So EL does NOT Equal YHWH – at least according to the Torah (Exod 32) – EL seems to be the FATHER of YHWH just as he was seen to be the FATHER of Ba’al and M’ot etal.
Yahweh was originally combined with El as "El-Yahweh", like "El-Shaddai" and "El-Elyon" - El was the chief god of the Canaanite pantheon, and El-Yahweh is still found in a few places in the Old Testament
Pepsi dear, you're off your meds and need to get back on track...
The quote from the Wizard of Oz was very pertinent to YOU...go and read it over again.
The term 'Hebrew' is a transliteration of a foreign hamito-Shemitic root and in no way does it mean 'HE-brewed' as in ingredients for Bread etc..as you claim.
Are you on crack? Or locked up somewhere, in a place where the walls are say, padded?
It may come from the Root 'qBR - 'to move across' or 'wander' or 'act like a nomad' which is rougly equivalent to the ancient Egyptian word for land-grabbing Nomads
Again, don't try to make up silly etymologies from English transliterations of foreign words.
And try to be serious...your posts are a tissue of childish nonsense...which I suspect you must know deep down... or (sadly) maybe you don't !!!!!
32: 8-9: “When the EL ELYON (EL Most High) apportioned out the Borders of the Gentiles, in the day when he divided the sons of Adam, he fixed the boundaries of the [seventy] Nations according to the number of the gods; and YHWH’s own portion fell to his own People, even to Jacob his allotted Share…”
Psalm 89:27 — "'I will also appoint him my firstborn, the highest [elyon] of the kings of the earth.'" (WEB)
Psalm 7:17 — "I will give thanks to Yahweh according to His righteousness, and will sing praise to the name of Yahweh Most High [Elyon].
Psalm 83:18 — "That they may know that You alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High [Elyon] over all the earth." (WEB)
Psalm 97:9 — "For you, Yahweh, are most high [Elyon] above all the earth.
2 Samuel 22:14 — "Yahweh thundered from heaven, the Most High [Elyon] uttered His voice." (WEB)
Small minded has nothing to do with it, you got the per-verted "version"
I saw that when you mixed the pairs, you mixed the same kind with the same kind.
No, you have to present it here, make your case, otherwise what you say has no cover.
Enki's temple debunked, it's just a entrance into the abzu.
Deity debunked, there is no deified version in sumer of the abzu, further more it is not who you state.
This leaves us with the original ABZU.
Biased, prejudiced and incorrect is no way to go through life, kid.
I feel sorry for you.
Everything I have told, I have provided exact sources for.
But, because this would involve some detailed research on your behalf, you're not willing to do it.
So, so lazy, Pepsi.
No, it doesn't.
You're now not only showing your ignorance of the Sumerian mythology, you are also showing your ignorance of both the Sumerian, and the English language.
I do feel sorry for you.
I am a qualified professional, and you will not learn from me.
This is small-mindedness.
I am always willing to learn from anyone qualified to teach me.
And I also feel sorry that you won't learn from AugustusMasonicus or Sigismundus, because they both know exactly what they're talking about. I've learned a lot from them in this thread, and I thank them for it.
Originally posted by pepsi78
Augustus is wrong dear, was wrong about many things...