There is no salvation!

So the situation is this.

We can rule out all of the religions on earth, as no solid proof exists that there is a God. (After all, the bible and other scriptures were written by man).

So the only possibly alternative (supposedly scientific) explanation that we have is that of evolution. A big bang and the evolution of man up to this age that we have currently.

We now have a problem as we are destroying our planet; humans are a plague and are consuming all of the earth�s resources. The environment is changing, and if nature doesn�t destroy us, the threat of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction will.. sooner or later.

The only solution is to advance technology enough to fund an advanced space program and to find another planet that can support life. The problem is a planet with the same characteristics of earth may not exist and even if it did, it would be light-years away. So to find a way to these planets, mankind would need to travel at the speed of light (otherwise we would all die in the excursion before getting there).

If man CAN go the speed of light, then I would guess that technology would be in place that would enable them to go faster than the speed of light and actually travel 'back' in time. However, if this was the case, we would be seeing space tourist now, so I have to assume that man never reaches this level of technology. (And I would guess they would need to reach this technology in the next 100-300 years from the current deterioration of the earth)

So in short, the long term future of mans survival isn�t looking that good, which leads me to where:

We evolved from nothing to something. Man began to question its existence and invented religion as an answer (but this is fake and a simple figment of our imagination). We live and die. On the grand scale of things our lives represent less than a speck of dust. The feelings of love, peace, anger, joy, happiness etc in the end amount to nudda.

We have 0 to an average of 65 years to live and then die. To experience a hope but in the end comes the realization we are nothing more than educated monkeys. There is no salvation. Life then death.

Can you really buy into this argument?

*edit typo*

[edit on 25-11-2004 by shmick25]

Originally posted by shmick25
The only solution is to advance technology enough to fund an advanced space program and to find another planet that can support life. Can you really buy into this argument?

Going to another planet will solve nothing, because the heart of man is evil.

No, I can't buy into this argument because I know Jesus Christ exists. Because I have accepted Him as the basis for my salvation, I am saved and headed for an eternity where I will get to see the entire universe.

Dear 25.

As you continue your search in enlighment you will find that there is salvation.

You just have to deny ignorance and be open minded, thats all.

Originally posted by shmick25
We can rule out all of the religions on earth, as no solid proof exists that there is a God. (After all, the bible and other scriptures were written by man).

Ah, but you can't rule out philosophies like Buddhism and you still have to account for universal "near death experiences" that indicate people of all religions go to heaven.

So the only possibly alternative (supposedly scientific) explanation that we have is that of evolution. A big bang and the evolution of man up to this age that we have currently.

Oh, we have lots of explananations. None is the Ultimate Truth, many are religious and spiritual beliefs. Oh yes... the Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution. You could have evolution with or without the BB.

The only solution is to advance technology enough to fund an advanced space program and to find another planet that can support life.

Good heavens. I can think of three alternatives off the top of my head, and it mostly involves the US getting its act together and starting to act WITH the rest of the world instead of putting its fingers in its ears and singing "Lalalalalala."

We live and die. On the grand scale of things our lives represent less than a speck of dust. The feelings of love, peace, anger, joy, happiness etc in the end amount to nudda.

We have 0 an average of 65 years to live and then die. To experience a hope but in the end comes the realization we are nothing more than educated monkeys. There is no salvation. Life then death.

Can you really buy into this argument?

I should point out that even WITH religion, you still live 65 years (75+ in First World countries) and on the grand scale of things your life still represents less than a speck of dust.

And this is where most of the non-Christians have a real divergence of opinions with the Christians. YOUR religion may tell you that you're all a bunch of rotten no-goodniks and that your miserable selves are constantly being horrible to everyone (and yet the experience of joining your religion really doesn't change your behavior or make you more eco-conscious, etc. It just gives you more reason to be depressed.)

OUR religions tell us that humans are good, that all life is worthy of being respected, that we are not pawns in a game of God And Demon with both sides tearing at us.

Our religions say we can solve our problems. Our religions say we can all live together with our diverse cultures and our diverse ideas.

Our religions say that we as people are NOT constantly sinning. In fact, on the whole, we're pretty decent critters.

It's a shame that your religion gives you such a narrow view of humans and their possibilities.

It's okay to be stupid however it is not okay to remain that way!

Atheism is a point-of-view.

Well, there are lots of points-of-view. Now, which one is the correct one?

That's the riddle that will take your whole life long to muddle through.

I like to think of my life as a series of "phases." I went through my Fundy phase, and my Liberal phase, and my Enlightened phase, and my Cooperative phase; and now I'm going through my Interpretation of Dreams phase.

Having come to totally different conclusions during each and every phase that I experienced, I am now to the point where I have no opinions at all.

Originally posted by shmick25
So the situation is this.

We can rule out all of the religions on earth, as no solid proof exists that there is a God. (After all, the bible and other scriptures were written by man).

So the only possibly alternative (supposedly scientific) explanation that we have is that of evolution. A big bang and the evolution of man up to this age that we have currently.

So, in simple terms, what you're saying is that "The Problem or Question in need of a Solution" is to Answer:
1.) "Origin and/or Purpose of Life"(Especially Human Life) and
2.) "Best Method of How to Ensure the Continued Survival or Preservation of Life".

Then along with that, and in your opinion, Religion has failed or atleast has fell short of providing The Solution in comparison to Science. Now, Science should replace Religion as the means of Answering the Principles & Practices of Life in Relation to the Human Race.

Would you say that is a correct interpretation of the arguement at hand??

We now have a problem as we are destroying our planet; humans are a plague and are consuming all of the earth�s resources. The environment is changing, and if nature doesn�t destroy us, the threat of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction will.. sooner or later.

Haven't we ALWAYS had that problem to some greater or lesser degree. Plus, if your opinion of the Human Race is correct and we are in fact a Plague of the Earth, what is the reasoning behind the need to ensure our Survival from either ourselves or nature???

On one hand if we destroy ourselves then we have then by default destroyed the problem. On the other hand, if Nature destroys us then it has proven it's superiority to us as the Evolutionary Victor of Survival. Not to mention that Nature would, as a result of our destruction, just be Taking what it had Given in the first place, either as a means of Ending what it had Started or for a method of Recycling it's Reasources.

So in short, the long term future of mans survival isn�t looking that good, which leads me to where:

We evolved from nothing to something. Man began to question its existence and invented religion as an answer (but this is fake and a simple figment of our imagination). We live and die. On the grand scale of things our lives represent less than a speck of dust. The feelings of love, peace, anger, joy, happiness etc in the end amount to nudda.

To experience a hope but in the end comes the realization we are nothing more than educated monkeys. There is no salvation. Life then death.

Can you really buy into this argument?

Actually, Nothing to Something would be 'Creation' not 'Evolution', Evolution would be Something Changing. Aside from that, the realization that we are educated monkeys, should that be the true, doesn't have to be viewed as something bad. Much worse is the realization that Ego Driven Misconceptions cloud Humans into thinking they possess some Natural Right of Superiority and Excellence above other forms of Life, be it Monkey or Mule.

If there is no Salvation, then perhaps it's because we don't deserve it, as your arguement suggests.

If there is nothing but Life & Death, then maybe we should be happy that the Problem wasn't more difficult to Solve leaving us pleanty of Time to enjoy our newly found Peace of Mind that we are Free from having to Fear the Unknown!!!

I'd much rather buy into that arguement myself!!

You are right salvation is a religious teaching and belief, and actually a way to keep the masses dependant to the church.

Do I believe in salvation? No, not in the way that religion tell us.

I always feel that we are souls inside the human body and as our bodies dies our souls are released not to see hell or heaven like the bible talks about it but our souls go back after death to the point of origin were we came from in the begining, we go back to the source.

This is my personal opinion.

mOjOm and others, I like some of your ideas.

The issue at hand is that there can only be one absolute truth. There is a god, there isn�t. There are 5 gods or there are 4. We do have a purpose, we don�t. We should think about these issues.. we shouldn�t (its a waste of time).

Let me explain it to you this way (not saying I buy into it).

If you knew for 100% certainty that there is no god or supernatural whatever out there, how would it change your life?

"Does the pear tree say to the apple tree,
'I hate you cause you're not like me!'
"Does the green grass say to the sky so blue,
'I'm GREEN!! Why aren't YOU green too?'

"A rose smells sweet 'cause it's a flower.
"An onion is strong; a pickle is sour.
"They're different but they get along; and
no one needs to think that's wrong.

"Must I be a chicken or a goose?
"Can't I be a churckendoose?"

Ben Ross Behrenberg, 1946

There is NO--one--absolute Truth. Truth is different for each one experiencing it.

We do have the memory of some events in common, yes.

But that's about >IT

No, I'm sure we have souls. I think some animals do too. Psychic phenonmena like esp, ghost siteings, and healing miracles are unexplained alot of times. A couple of these things I've experienced first hand.
Science is our way of tidying up what we see around us and putting it into neat little packages. Makeing "order" out of seeming chaos. That's fine, but there is still a divinity and mystery to some things that science sometimes can't explain. And I'm fine with that too.
Why close your mind off to there being a higher power anyway? It's supposed to be a positive energy there to help you. Not believeing in a higher power or that we have no soul seems like a kind of negative energy to me. Gloomy even.

Originally posted by shmick25
mOjOm and others, I like some of your ideas.

The issue at hand is that there can only be one absolute truth. There is a god, there isn�t. There are 5 gods or there are 4. We do have a purpose, we don�t. We should think about these issues.. we shouldn�t (its a waste of time).

Let me explain it to you this way (not saying I buy into it).

If you knew for 100% certainty that there is no god or supernatural whatever out there, how would it change your life?

Well, I�d say it would make a very big change� a very traumatic change. I mean how would you feel really if you just learned that everything you believed was turned upside down. All the wars, all the persecution, all for naught. It is a mind boggling thing to try and comprehend. I doubt that anyone could give you an accurate answer.

For me at least it would be most depressing to learn that I had been lied to all my life and that the Holy Church is not correct, I suppose I would stick mainly with the faith. Even with out Heaven and Hell there is something good to be learned through the Catholic Faith. I guess look more to the Venerable Pope for spiritual guidance, though you said that it would be a fact that there would be no supernatural at all.

I do ask though, how would this evidence be presented? Even if you could prove these facts would it be accepted? In my mind there is no doubt that the Catholic faith is correct in all its teachings, Mary, the Baby Jesus these ARE the way to salvation. I believe that people would denounce you as a wack job, for even now in spite of the Churches teachings 5/6 of the worlds population do not accept it.


-edit- Grammar

[edit on 11-11-2004 by ChatholicGodBoy]

Originally posted by Emily_Cragg
There is NO--one--absolute Truth. Truth is different for each one experiencing it.

Incorrect. There is one and it destroys everything we think we know.

One is the only real number.

Interesting. So even in the face of evidence that shows there is no God, catholicgodboy, you would still maintain a stout catholic?

I think you are right that people would still not accept truth though, as humans have a built in mechanism for hope. You hear stories of people in prison camps and lost at sea etc.. yet still they cling to the hope of being saved or free again.

I guess it is like earth. Do you think animals have this feeling of hope? Is it simply a basic survival mechanism for human beings?

In regards to the theory that there is only one truth, I am inclined to believe this. Life is made up of this principle. Black and white, on and off, yes or no.

Are you going to the beach? There are two options. Yes or No

Do you own a car? Yes or No again.

Now obviously, one of these options is the truth and the other would be a lie. Do you think anyone on the earth knows the truth?

Sorry, but I believe that "infamous" gray area exists...
Do I own a car? Yes, BUT the bank holds the title so do I really own it?
Am I going to the Beach? Yes, but I may not be able to if it rains before I get there or something else happens. LOL.

[edit on 12-11-2004 by elaine]

Or is the questions: Do you buy into there being no salvation because we cannot face the possibility that we live, die and that is all there is?

If you live and die and that's all there is then...
Human lives don't matter
Man's laws don't matter (includeing murder)
Bible's laws certainly don't matter
Nature would'nt matter to us either (environmentalists could go jump I guess, cause why would WE care what happens to the earth in our tiny lifetimes?)

Just much of nothing would matter except maybe for man trying to become an immortal through advanced medical technology. I guess that would be really the only "hope" left.

Yeah, I thought someone would pick up on that grey area stuff. But you cant argue against the black and white concept!

Ok. Remove the grey area. Alians came to earth, and showed all the human beings how they created humans and earth as an experiement, gave a detailed explanation of the earth's history, how there was no hope beyond the grave and that eventually the earth would burn itself out. Then they went off into space in their spaceships.

Everyone on earth now knows the same truth. What do you think this news would do to people? Would they act the same? Would humans still obey the laws that society has put in place? Or would it quicken self distruction?

Getting my drift?

Originally posted by shmick25
Yeah, I thought someone would pick up on that grey area stuff. But you cant argue against the black and white concept!

Ok. Remove the grey area. Alians came to earth, and showed all the human beings how they created humans and earth as an experiement, gave a detailed explanation of the earth's history, how there was no hope beyond the grave and that eventually the earth would burn itself out. Then they went off into space in their spaceships.

Everyone on earth now knows the same truth. What do you think this news would do to people? Would they act the same? Would humans still obey the laws that society has put in place? Or would it quicken self distruction?

Getting my drift?

Then I say to you, read the Keys of Enoch by J.J. Hurtak. Very difficult to absorb, but the man has an enlightened vision at the end of it all.