To the Patriots, we've lost.

reply to post by intrepid


No, it was merely "glibber".

As you well know, I'm not alone in these views and I prefer to associate with those of similar tastes, as we all do.

A better chance of survival.

Having said that, if thing continue as they are with no alternative in sight, me and mine may just take the option you "glibly" suggest and depart.

As the solution to the California psychosis has been to "leave", so it may end up being true for the whole country.

Originally posted by nwtrucker
As you are well aware, you have already won. All you require is for us is to accept it!! Live with it.

Guess what? it's not happening.

Dissolving the Union is an idea that allows a peaceful resolution..."childish, cop-out", sorry, not true.

There are other alternatives that would be far less palatable than dissolving the Union.

Surely, your not that blind that you don't see that?

Oh please. Were you complaining during the Bush years? So there's a Dem in the WH and half the House. NOW it's "Oh my poor OWN life." That doesn't impress me. Yes, it is childish.

reply to post by nwtrucker


If, as you say, my definition of a "Patriot" isn't valid, than what are you being a patriot to? What ideal? What concept?

If one is a Patriot of the U.S. then what does the U.S. stand for if not the Constitution and the Bill of Rights?

A flag?

Sorry, the more I think about it, the more my definition of a defender of the constitution is valid.

If that is "gall", then what the hell are you a patriot of???

reply to post by intrepid


Cool, then why bother posting on this thread, after all your not "impressed".

Methinks he doth protest too much.......

reply to post by nwtrucker


Unfortunately, nothing regarding the dissolation of the union will ever go as planned. As Chris Hedges and Noam Chomsky have pointed out on numerous occasions, the Republic is on the downward spiral into a neo-feudalist state no matter how you look at it, so I think at this point, all Americans can hope to do is to build self-reliant communities and start learning how to defend themselves without relying on the State to do it for them, because there will come a time where the State won't exist anymore and the power vacuum will be filled by what they refer to in Africa as "warlords." I know it sounds far-fetched, but the States is already about 70% there. The only difference is that right now, the warlords hide behind the government and pull the strings (ie. fiat currency) from outside of the public domain. The only difference is it would go from what Hedges refers to as Inverted Totalitarianism with multiple corporate interests working towards pretty much the same goal, to overt Feudalist Totalitarianism with said corporate interests taking out "slices of the pie" for themselves and using the citezenry to fight their quarrels for them. Picture a never ending civil war. I know it sounds bleak, but once you get over the fear of it, you can start preparing for it mentally and logistically.

The Union was realized to be a failure 150 years ago. There was no "rebellion", it was more akin to a domestic abuser refusing to let their spouse leave. It was supposedly a voluntary contract among the states to act collectively for the good of all. When a certain portion gained the power at the expense of the other it was time to leave. Lincoln would have none of it and would rather have killed millions than allow the "Union" to expire. Rather ironic for a nation founded on the principles of freedom.

Sometimes I share your sentiments that it's of no use. It's like facing down an tank with bag full of Chinese food but remember that did work for a while. Thing is those who would destroy freedom at home rely on the police and military for their protection. It will truly be up to them to decide the fate of America but the public must be prepared to stand with them when the time comes if indeed it ever does.

I'd rather stay and take my chances than run out on the country of my ancestors. Many of my grandfathers fought to leave us a legacy of liberty and I will follow in their footsteps however I can. Running may buy some time perhaps but rest assured if the US falls the rest of the world will be soon to follow.

reply to post by xXxinfidelxXx


I agree there are downsides to a dissolution of the Union. I do not see corporate interests as one of them.

Here's why.

First individual states, if that's the form a dissolution takes, has far less control from the elitists than the federal gov't. Local fat cats rather than international ones. There are exceptions, but there a huge difference between state loyalty and say a Canadian provincial one that has always viewed the feds as THE gov't.

Not as much down south.

Second, corporations, even the farm controlled ones are "paper" owners, not any physical control at all.

The paper is ignored. The locals continue to run things...as well as defend it. Not that difficult, at least at first look.

reply to post by Asktheanimals


Good points. That fact that it did work for a while is why I suggest a dissolution rather than a physical leaving, if that's what you meant.

Those that believe in the founding fathers concepts have a far better chance resurrecting them in groups that support it rather than those that don't.

A side benefit would be a "bankruptcy" that dissolved the Union would allow and a fresh start to occur...

This side of a major catastrophe, do you honestly see any reasonable chance to fix this in any other way?

Allowing there are good people on both political sides and that both have been subverted, then the vehicle of that subversion is the federal gov't. Washington D.C. and it's mini-governments.

A dissolution of the Union destroys that mechanism. It puts them back at square one as it did 200 years ago or so.

Two new capitals armed with the sadder but wiser leaders, could make life a lot tougher for those already named and known to again retake control.....

reply to post by nwtrucker


I see the point you're trying to make, but everyone has their price, and these "paper" owners have lots of paper to spread around to see that their interests will be met. For example, let's just say that someone in a position of public office makes x amount of dollars from taxpayers, and x * 200 from corporate lobbies/interests (which will always exist unless corporations are barred from existing, which will never happen), whose interests do you think they will work towards? Money talks my friend and those with all the wealth are speaking quite loudly to those in any position of influence if you ask me. Doesn't matter if that works through a Democratic Republic, a Feudal State, or whatever kind of system you could possibly imagine. Even the utopic vision that Libertarians have is inherently flawed, as, like I said, everyone has their price, and it's only a matter of time before that new system of governance (or non-governance in the case of Libertarians) is co-opted by those who hold all of the wealth. Unless the financial oligarchs are ousted and barred from any possibility of rebuilding their empire, nothing will ever change, and that, again, will never happen.

reply to post by nwtrucker


I am not having any of that. Even if we had to fight the worlds strongest empire all over again. DEATH before dishonor ....

It is our struggle and its difficulty that makes us and our endeavour noble.

As long as a single one of us exists the end is not decided as we are people of an idea. A people of a concept and as such are not perishable.

WE are the USA, not the sad state of it today. We are its maxims and its ideals. WE ARE ITS ETHOS. That is timeless and unites us to all sons and daughters of this nation in all times past and future.

I think it glorious and fitting that in the face of such odds that my people would still defy and be as they will to be.

That is living amongst freemen. Regardless of there being fetters on them or not. Even a slave is free once he realizes it. After that its just a matter of proving such to the world. Regardless though he is free by his choice.

I choose to be free.

Choose with us.

I thought I saw a demographic within the last year or so that demonstrated how the current national distribution of Democratic persuasion holds most of the important/popular resources.

Just saying.

reply to post by nwtrucker


"if the libs are insulted"...good one!

its all the "conservative republican values" behind this mess. Reagan selling the 'trickle down' scam economy.. Or Bushy and Son.. they worked wonders didn't they? paved the way and left the keys to the Ferrari for Obama...

Oh yeah, with a directions, a gps, a map, and a road crew.

I promise You,

that if we truly had a nation just as the constitution spelled out, it would be the conservatives whining the most.

Libs would be very happy.

Perhaps learning and going by the definition of a conservative and a liberal, you would notice something polar to your programming.

The answer to our nations problems is within the constitution.

Article 5

After the word " or"

TextNext>> The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.

reply to post by tadaman


LaDaMan, I've read and admired your posts. Outstanding stuff. Inspiring, frankly.

This one is no exception.

One point I'd like to make. I'm not suggesting "giving up". The tactical fight and education must continue at all costs.

Yet, strategic planning shouldn't be left out and all options explored. The good points as well as the bad.

You can't kill an idea totally. It merely gets reborn/rethought of by someone else down the road.

The way I see it, we win a battle here and there while we are losing/lost the war. We concentrate on Obama when its the ideas we need to fight otherwise the best we do is get agreement from the Dems that he wasn't our best President ever, but Hillary will do it better....

If that happens?? It's over. Done. IMO.

While we worry about the Feds, our schools, local gov't move down the same road as the Feds with little or no outcry.

I don't see on a political level either the motivation nor an electable individual forthcoming from the "Lip-service" party.

All I ask is plan for all eventualities, "honor the threat".

I have no desire to go down like the "Three Hundred" as romantic and honorable it was.

I'm convinced that if the Union did split, the other side would collapse in a generation, eat crow and come begging for food and goods.

We'd start by teaching them how to clean stalls, paint fences, iron shirts, cook, so on and they'd learn self respect instead of self esteem.

It may even be the fastest way to fix it all. Maybe I'm wrong, but when one reaches a point where it doesn't look like were gonna pull it off it becomes, "retreat ,hell! We're advancing to the rear"....

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Hmm, Google the counties of the U.S. and which way they went politically, red or blue. You'll see an entirely different picture.

reply to post by HanzHenry


All the more reason to get a "divorce". Call it irreconcilable differences.

We'll stay out of your house...you stay out of ours...for once!

The young often think the world will change the way they hope, because they believe in happy endings.

That every couple generations believes that and it seldom if ever occurred does not diminish the optimism.

The older often think they and the world are too tired, inured, entrenched, for anything short of a comet to change it all.

I don't know the answer. I and many I know have often felt like OP described.

But then, eventually feeling miserable about the situation doesn't make it better, so you eventually have to get up and get back to having a life.

Life is what happens while we're making other plans, as the saying goes.

reply to post by RedCairo


LOL, I posted earlier that it might be a bit of old age and a fouler mood than normal, so I can't discount the possibility.

Well, the idea isn't getting any traction/discussion re the pros and cons of it.

Might as well put it back in the closet and make my plans on a personal level, cover the bases so to speak...

reply to post by nwtrucker


I suspect there isn't really an option anymore. All considered, I figure many of us will be going home before too much longer. Fun while it lasted, but no real way to fix it now.