survival -- plan and prepare? or LOOT and BOOT? #2

just this morning in response to other threads about BOB's (bug out bags)
i read many people's thoughts about being able to get what their family needs, AFTER the SHTF.......

theft,,, poaching,,,,looting,,,,raiding,,,, are just a few words mentioned by members...

Am i Reading humans right...?? it's bad enough i'm going to have to deal with the "problem" what ever "it" will be.

but if i have to deal with humans being stupid-- and trying to TAKE my family's supplys.....

just the thought makes me angry......

we ALL have the time,, to take steps ,,NOW,, to survive as a race of people -- each in our own lands- in our own way..

or not ...

how many of us think it is better to STEAL,, then to PREPARE??

So here's how I see it going down...everyone near a city including the suburbs will be trying to raid the bountiful harvest of strip malls and food places...there's lots. If your in a city and not out in 24hrs it's gonna get hectic. The further away you are the better off. People these days from younger generations (I'm 28 so not so old) will see it as a chance to go wild and do/get what they want. Couple that with people trying to get and hold onto what they need for their loved ones and its a powder keg. Best bet is to have an immediate evac route and area to relocate outside of places full of food and supplies. Once out of the city be on guard but polite and maybe even helpful if you can in whatever community treats you well. Of course there will be good folks and communities that are upstanding and that's the networking and support that makes one valuable and liked/respected as well. But in cities man its basically gonna be a war zone with cops military and everyone else going at it like they haven't eaten in weeks.

reply to post by darrman


I Asked this Same Question onn 4-4-11>>>>www.abovetopsecret.com...





it was an experiment.. Before -- i got 11 pages

today i get nothing

reply to post by darrman



I have been "prepared" for many years,, but until this morning,, when i realized i overlooked the human element ,, when i got so upset,,that intelligent people, HERE on ATS, were actually planning to steal for their family, instead of planning to prepare for their family...

it knocked my socks off------

I just cant go out and buy Everything i need ,, im not "rich",,, but over time i put away enough to satisfy any concerns about "making it through"...


under-estimating humans could be MY biggest failure as of yet..

i planned for water,,, food,,, crops,,,, shelter,,,,, hunting,,,,

Thank God i still have time to prep for the "human-element "




I for one do know the difference between KILLING and MURDER...........
I will not murder.....
i am mentally able to kill

i hope .......pray.........warn.......aim.................fire...

reply to post by darrman


Whatever disaster happens, if it's such so that all local authority breaks down, social cohesion will last only as long as supplies, and then it'll go free for all.

As far as bugging out, where is anyone to bug out to?
Most, when asked, respond with a run-to-the-hills answer.
Okay, so, WHO owns those hills? Hmmm?
Again, where is someone with a bug-out plan bugging out TO?

It's a bit hypocritical when someone voices concern over protecting what they OWN, when part of their very own plans and activities will involve the exploitation, poaching, or use of someone else's property.

Of course, when it's all free-for-all, and everyone for themselves, polite society takes a hike, as well as such concepts of legal ownership of land, water access, food resources, etc., except where one has the firepower and people to protect and defend such.

Further, anyone and everyone bugging out is going to bug out probably to the same places you, very well, may be planning on doing so.
Not only will you be required to deal with whatever catastrophe is cause for bugging out, but, you'll need compete with other people for what remaining 'free' resources are available. Beyond that, of course, there's the direct competition of force of arms, and banditry where winner takes all.

One means by which such might be mitigated is to choose several far-flung foreign countries accessible by ocean travel as potential candidate destinations, where plans include running to the coast, as opposed to the hills, where a sailboat may either be obtained, or is already owned and provisioned for a quick get-out.
Sailboat?
Yes.
Wind is free. Fuel might not ever again be available.
A properly outfitted and provisioned sailboat can get anywhere from a single person to any number of other people (boat size and provisions dependent) anywhere on the planet there's ocean to get to.

Even in a global disaster, there's certain to be some places LESS effected than wherever one is bugging out from.

Besides that, one can effectively live off the ocean if one knows how, and is prepared. Small isolated and disparate islands can be leveraged to grow food, relatively lower in risk for others looting or poaching crops. Multiple small island crops insulate against loss if one crop is indeed poached.

Sailing and ocean travel gives clear long distance defensive sight lines.
After a few months or years of the world stewing in violent Anarchy, coastal landing parties to mainland locations might exploit supplies and resources left over such as container ships docked and abandoned in international shipping ports that could contain anything and everything imaginable.

Don't run for the hills. Get a sailboat and go for the deep blue.
Pirate up before anyone else decides to get their jolly roger on.

reply to post by darrman


They're not only gonna take your stuff, but they'll take your family. And then they also might enslave you and get you to work in the fields.

reply to post by Druscilla


It's funny you mention sail boats because I hardly hear people talk about bugging out to the ocean and that has always been my plan. Once there's no supplies left to loot your going to have to fight for what you have and most people won't have gardens and the like for renewable food sources...and when people are starving morals go out the window. So either you've planned for the future and will now have to face the masses which will almost assuredly out number you and yours or you didn't plan and you have to take from others to survive. Now me I'll be in a small convoy of sail boats heading for islands in the Caribbean and I'll have a nice little most around me until I deem it safe to go a shore. So if the question is would you be a looter or someone defending the supplies they had the foresight to stock early. If you stay on land in areas that have huge populations its only a matter of time. Me I'll loot but one thing and one thing only and that's a boat or two depending on the amount of people in my group. Get out and away and hope I don't get caught up by pirates

Prepare as best you can, but even then supplies only last so long. Even if you use extreme moderation to create longevity in those supplies. Sooner or later, hopefully later you will find yourself in the same scenerio as "Loot and Boot".

Bug out to the ocean? Sail boat? Ermm... Pirates... Davy Jones' locker~ Walk the plank.... Err... I'd rather be able to fight with my feat on the ground than sharks below. Just my opinion.

reply to post by darrman


Man it must be nice not living paycheck to paycheck and not anywhere near a major city... When all your income goes to taxes then bills then food then car expenses, you aren't left with much if anything to help build a working supply for a shtf scenario. Heck even if you are able to start squirreling away something, if one small inconvenience hits you, say your car breaks down and the repairs are less than your insurance deductible and have to dive into your food budget to get your car back on the road, you'll end up going into your stores of food.

Sorry to tell you, but my only viable course of action when things go down is to first find a weapon (preferably a gun and ammunition), my next course of action is to secure a vehicle and fuel, my final course of action is get out of the city as fast as I can. In the course of this checklist I will most likely have to do things that are considered illegal in our society. Granted I will most likely run into some evil people trying to get my things, so I would like to take from them rather than you (easier on my conscience) but in the end it's about surviving. Welcome to chaos. It's impossible to prepare for.

reply to post by darrman

The Australian Aborigines, the oldest living culture on earth, have been around for 100's of 1,000's years, yet and soon to be proven by scientist, was there perseverance through history and the test of time. I'd image they would go back to what they know best WTSHTF. They my out live all other races.

reply to post by Druscilla


I live in Michigan, so no ocean here but I love your answer. I live in a rural are so I would sit tight more or less. And if need be just go north less people the more north you go.

Anywho no ocean, but the lakes are huge and full of little islands. I like new perspectives. Good looking out D.

Originally posted by darrman
reply to post by darrman

 

I just cant go out and buy Everything i need ,, im not "rich",,, but over time i put away enough to satisfy any concerns about "making it through"...


under-estimating humans could be MY biggest failure as of yet..

i planned for water,,, food,,, crops,,,, shelter,,,,, hunting,,,,

Thank God i still have time to prep for the "human-element "

Most people don't seem to grasp that even the smallest attempts at stocking provisions will, over time, add up substantially. Even if you can't buy all the crazy bulk, dehydrated,. MRE's etc... if you were to just buy a few extra canned goods, dry goods, rice, sugar things like that every time you go grocery shopping after a few months it starts to pile up, after a year there's a good amount sitting around and if you keep it up then you're good to go. even if some financially unplanned scenario pops up and you have to dive into your supplies you should, theoretically, be OK especially if you go back to storing things away once you're back on your feet.

Being ready on my end has never been my concern. the human element and protecting my children from unprepared scavengers has always been my biggest concern. There are far too many people out there who don't have even the most basic provisions let alone protective measures and they think that scavenging looting and stealing is their first step. it blows my mind. You can get a shotgun relatively inexpensively these days and one AR lower receiver with conversion kit and spare upper in a different caliber will go a long way in saving your butt, conserving ammo and expanding your survivability options because without some sort of firearm or comparable weaponry your stealing and looting will be rather short lived much like the unprepared individual who puts themselves or their family in that position. heck, even 2 cans of soup per week stockpiled away will after a year add up. And while not the easiest option for portability will feed you for several weeks.

reply to post by peter vlar


But I know you know so I dont come at you brah.
I instead befriend you/attempt to engage you none directly (i.e trade) and wait until your back is turned.

My families need for food is greater than yours.

This is the case everywhere and within a small amount of time; small groups of blood/trust relationships are inevitably formed as people are whittled down- small groups of survivalists first.
These none prepared groups grow within 1 generation and we suddenly have territorial based societies again.
People on guard, people out scavenging etc etc and pretty soon order is restored as team human bands together because we need to see what the I-phone 6 is like.

reply to post by Jukiodone


and this is exactly why part of my plan is not to do it all on my own. There are guys I served with and other good friends who have served, who are also a part of it. By combining resources as well as skill sets it maximizes our survivability while being able to maintain perimeter security to minimize interactions with others. Is it fool proof? heck no, there are no guarantees in situations where every person you come into contact with is plotting how to kill me steal my food and do lord only knows what to my children. And there are also interpersonal issues to consider when being in a confined locale, i.e. you've still got to watch your back against the people that are supposed to already be doing so. But the risk vs reward scenario seems to indicate to me that my families and those of my associates are safer under this option as opposed to trying to maintain security for myself and family solo. You make sound points though and people should take them to heart.

You post is about being practical now. making preparations. That makes perfect sense to those that can afford some outlay of funds to prepare. When the times comes, supplies put away will be like money in the bank is now.

If you read the stats, the average family in the US has little or no savings and is in debt for several thousands of dollars. You talk about stashing ammo or foodstuff, and the average American wants to make a run to the grocery store over the weekend and come back with some change in his/her pocket.

However, you are not allowing that people will do what they must to live and one of those most pressing imparities is to simply eat. My grandfather was a decent man. Yet I was told by my mother that during the Great Depression he told the family that he would steal to feed them if necessary.

Where do you stand to judge a man that is stealing to feed his family...or even himself? Morality, social conduct and laws don't stand a chance when the most basic of life necessities are in short supply.

In short, if TSHTF in a big way, the poor man will die trying to get food and the "rich" man with his supplies will die trying to keep it. In every encounter, either man left standing in such a life-and-death standoff will figure that he was justified under the natural laws of survival in what he did. We can blame from this point, but when that day comes, the rules will change.

reply to post by Aliensun


Fair enough points. However where I stand to judge a man who is just trying to feed his family in a situation line that is if and when they come between feeding mine. If I prepare and stockpile, how is it justified that someone who may not be in a position to spare extra money ahead of time or perhaps they just didnt have the foresite or care to do so. Once we as people are at that point the why is irrelevant to me. If I worked hard to set a plan of action in place why on earth is the other person more justified to just take from me? It's a rationalization to insist I'm judging them harshly for trying to survive when I'm going to be in the same situation. I can sympathis with their plight without justifying their actions. In a lawless land the repercussions of something as simple as stealing food are likely to be as severe or moreso than those for murder.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by darrman

 

As far as bugging out, where is anyone to bug out to?
Most, when asked, respond with a run-to-the-hills answer.
Okay, so, WHO owns those hills? Hmmm?
Again, where is someone with a bug-out plan bugging out TO?

It's a bit hypocritical when someone voices concern over protecting what they OWN, when part of their very own plans and activities will involve the exploitation, poaching, or use of someone else's property.

Perhaps the person plans on bugging out to their own hills or maybe to hills owned by a friend or family member where they have been invited to come and stay.

You're being a bit of a hypocrite there assuming a person plans on exploiting another's property.

A person capable of advance planning and forethought who can manage to stock up on basic goods with a fallback plan to bug out is quite capable of planning their retreat location.

Depends on the situation and the death toll. if 50+% of the population in the are dead and many others have left the area i will salvage everything i can use.

Solar panels , power plants , equipment, and anything else i can use to survive.

I will also go through abandoned property and buildings for anything i need if there is no government.
And i don't mean a bunch of nutcases that appoint them self as the government.

i will also be putting tougher a groups of people as a team.

My pet polar bear has been trained to guard our bug-in stash. And the cat keeps an eye on the bear to make sure he keeps his paws off the 10,000 cans of tuna.

But otherwise, in Canada, I expect any looters to knock on the door and politely ask if they may steal a few cans of beans while we're not looking. It's just the Canadian way of doing things.

So I'm not really concerned.

Wind is free. Fuel might not ever again be available. A properly outfitted and provisioned sailboat can get anywhere from a single person to any number of other people (boat size and provisions dependent) anywhere on the planet there's ocean to get to.

I found out the hard way several years ago that a sailboat is quite useless without Jason and the Argonauts to pilot the damn thing. It looks easy like giving someone a haircut or hanging drywall but I found out it takes years to learn how to guide one and, more importantly, someone who knows must teach you.