Were These Really Used To Take Over 4 Plane's ?

a reply to: andy06shake

They'd be willing to accept just about anything they told them once they had the plane. Rule number 3: Don't escalate the situation. If they say they have a bomb, go with it even if you're sure they don't.

a reply to: Bilk22

Sorry to hear that. Maybe some better training is needed. Maybe heavy work gloves are needed so you don't hurt yourself. Sheetrock knives are usually the least dangerous tool to anyone on a job, but also one of the more versatile. I can cut luan, other thin board stock and even thin metals with one.

In order to "train" on this knife I literally had to whittle lap dovetail joints by hand, rabbets and dados, compound 45's, etc out of soft pine. I'm pretty handy with those things. What I mean by dangerous isn't that they pose the highest threat but that of the few injuries I've seen with them an extremely high percentage of these few injuries are serious deep, painful, and bloody. And that's just one cut because usually people stop cutting themselves after the first accidental one.
As far as what I'd want in a fight it depends. On a crowded plane in close quarters? A knife isn't looking so bad compared to something that needs time and space to swing.

a reply to: Zaphod58

So in essence airline protocol and procedure combined with fear and confusion allowed those persons to implement the takeover of the aircraft in question. Given the situation that actually seems plausible.

I would have thought human nature being what it is there would at-least have been one or two have a go hero's on the four aircraft , then again possibly there could have been and we just don't know about it.

Sad turn of events.

a reply to: andy06shake

One question that springs to mind however is why the passengers and crew were willing to accept that these box cutter wielding individuals also had access to bombs? If you have a bomb then you don't need a box cutter. And one is rather disproportionate to the other, certainly bring doubt to mind.

I'm not saying what I believe but I'm saying consider the other side. In general It's actually kind of smart because a bomb is so final. A person would be more hesitant to detonate a bomb and suffer certain death than to take out a couple people with a knife to show they mean business. As a last resort only they could use the bomb.
Plus for their plan they needed to subdue the pilots. This makes sense for them knowing it was a suicide mission and it also makes sense in the minds of passengers who thought they would have a chance of landing. A set of knives to fully takeover the plane and maintain control against any one or two heroes like you folks in this thread, and a bomb to force their hand in the negotiations. Of all the parts of the official story to question I don't see how this is that unbelievable.

originally posted by: TheBolt
a reply to: Bilk22

Sorry to hear that. Maybe some better training is needed. Maybe heavy work gloves are needed so you don't hurt yourself. Sheetrock knives are usually the least dangerous tool to anyone on a job, but also one of the more versatile. I can cut luan, other thin board stock and even thin metals with one.

In order to "train" on this knife I literally had to whittle lap dovetail joints by hand, rabbets and dados, compound 45's, etc out of soft pine. I'm pretty handy with those things. What I mean by dangerous isn't that they pose the highest threat but that of the few injuries I've seen with them an extremely high percentage of these few injuries are serious deep, painful, and bloody. And that's just one cut because usually people stop cutting themselves after the first accidental one.
As far as what I'd want in a fight it depends. On a crowded plane in close quarters? A knife isn't looking so bad compared to something that needs time and space to swing.

Bingo! A utility knife/boxcutter is a swinging/slashing weapon. I've said this all along. A knife is a thrusting weapon as well as a slashing weapon. Screwdriver would be better as a thrusting weapon which can also slash.

The argument, even though I'm making it, is futile. This is the OS and we'll never know otherwise. However as we can all see, it's BS.

a reply to: Bilk22

Don't need to do any thrusting. Slashing will work too. You can cleave and dig the box cutter in. Like I said all you have to do is puncture and grind, dig around and get the thing sunk down about 2 inches. That's not asking a lot when the guy you are trying to do it to is strapped down in a seat.

Screw driver is a decent choice. I would go with reverse modified sabre grip though for the slashing and stabbing.

a reply to: Bilk22

Bingo! A utility knife/boxcutter is a swinging/slashing weapon. I've said this all along. A knife is a thrusting weapon as well as a slashing weapon. Screwdriver would be better as a thrusting weapon which can also slash.

Maybe I didn't word it right but this is the exact opposite of each I was trying to say. A hammer is a swinging weapon. A utility knife doesn't need a lot of backswing to inflict a deep cut especially when the person is moving towards you and therefore towards the blade. And I'm sorry but I'd much rather fight a guy who had a screwdriver vs. someone who had either a knife, a box cutter or a hammer. I would be the least afraid of a screwdriver. If you are struggling to see how they hijacked four planes with box cutters I can only imagine what you would be saying if the official story was that they did it with screwdrivers. Would you be on board with it then?
Also this argument is only true of the passengers that may have revolted. The box cutter would be highly effective after having grabbed a surprised flight attendant and restrained her, and also against surprised pilots strapped into a tight space facing the wrong way. The problem here though is in this argument you seem to be basically saying it's impossible to have gained control of the plane this way whereas I'm saying it's possible to have fought back and taken the box cutters away but also possible and reasonable that no one tried.

All you have to do is flail your arms around with something sharp to keep people from coming at you. No one wants to be slashed to ribbons.

A box cutter would have worked just fine at that. Given the the time, I don't think airport security would have confiscated it either.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

No. Blades under 4" regardless of if they were box cutters or knives were allowed in the cabin.

a reply to: TheBolt

I'm saying it's possible to have fought back and taken the box cutters away but also possible and reasonable that no one tried.

Have you ever walked the aisle of a plane toward the forward exit doors?
You in a confined aisle cannot maneuver whereas the two BG's with box cutters can flank you.
You would have little chance.
Neither would the guy behind you.
See the battle of Thermopylae.

It's simple really. It was an American plane taken over by knife.

Americans are so dependent on guns that without one they are completely helpless. You read it all the time..they talk about other countries with strict gun laws and then mention knife violence like it is rampant and act like a country with strict gun laws is completely useless without a gun.

a reply to: samkent

Have you ever walked the aisle of a plane toward the forward exit doors? You in a confined aisle cannot maneuver whereas the two BG's with box cutters can flank you. You would have little chance.

I agree very much with this. My last few posts have actually been strongly in defence of the official story here which I know is rare for me.

a reply to: Zaphod58

LOL, that's what I said -- back then the security people would have let boxcutters on the plane.

Now I can't even take nail clippers.

As small as it is,
a box cutter is a TERRIBLE weapon.
I know, i carry one with me at all times.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
reply to post by dfens

 

Except the pilots weren't "unbuckled on autopilot". They were still strapped into their seats at the time.

Not only were 5 straps holding them in their seats, but they would have also been hardwired to the instrument panel by their headsets and, depending on altitude, fastened to the cockpit sidewall by quick-don oxygen masks and comm wires. And our training back then was to accede to a highjackers' demands.

originally posted by: Vaedur

originally posted by: LOSTinAMERICA

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
So the other day at work I was looking at a "box cutter", it is the smallest knife with very little blade.
Something seems off that 4 planes were hijacked and taken over with this tiny cutting tool.

"Box Cutter"

I think it was remote control that took over. It all speculation on my part and I'll never believe the official story. Too many inconsistencies. When Larry said pull building seven, I was like, how can they setup the demolition that fast? How does the two main towers fall upon their own footprint? Why wasn't NORAD taking care of business? Why was the debris shipped off secretly? How did they find the passports intact? Inquiring minds want to know.

Box cutters my ass.

Larry said "pull" as in "pull" the emergency personnel from the building and stop fighting the fire IMO. he was talking about all the people who died, so they just pulled the firefighters off building 7.

No, they blew the building with demolition charges. I was watching it on the news. I'm not mistaken. I know what's real.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: Bilk22

Tell you what. You put on a white shirt you don't care about. Go buy or find a red sharpie or marker. Grab your favorite luggage bag or lap top. Now give the marker to your buddy and ask him to play fight with you. Tell him to treat the marker like its a knife. Have a quick go at it. Now look down and see how many red marks and lines you have all over your body. Then you will understand just how ineffective your self defense with a purse or laptop scheme will be.

Good point for sure, but what your hypothetical is lacking is the fact there would be huge amounts of adrenaline involved in a real box cutter versus a victim whom has a good reason to fight for life.
It's a powerful defense mechanism built into us all and it's there so we survive as a species.

When you are scared for your life the odds are in your favor during a confrontation.
Regards, Iwinder

originally posted by: BrianFlanders

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: BrianFlanders

Those planes don't just fly that route and park for the day. Once they got to California, they would have either gone back to the east coast, with a higher load, or on to other destinations. They were needed in California, so they were flown.

Well, like I said. How much fuel do you reckon one of those things burns just going across the country once? How much do you figure that much aviation fuel costs? Especially since the airlines have undoubtedly been under constant pressure from environmentalists for decades over the impact of so many planes pumping so much exhaust into the environment. You have to wonder how they could sit there and watch a plane with that kind of capacity routinely flying with 40 people onboard.

I mean, honestly. Have you seen how companies operate? We're talking about people who pinch pennies. Think about a condo HOA, for example. I'm going to guess an airline management would be significantly tighter than a small company. If they're burning that much fuel every day flying planes that are not filled to capacity, they've got to be making it back somehow. These are not city buses. These are jumbo jets.

I can tell you from a lot of experience that a 757 (-300 to be precise) will burn roughly 24,000 pounds of jet fuel to cross the country. That's 3,600 gallons. Full retail for Jet fuel at JFK today is $7.37/gallon, but the airlines, through bulk purchasing and hedging, pay a lot less. Say, 4.50/gallon. Doing an ad hoc equipment change because of 1 flight's load factor is unheard of. While it might seem more economical to, say, substitute a 717 for a 767 with only 40 pax, chaos would ensue. You might have 180 people waiting in Los Angeles for the 767 to take them to Miami And where do you find a spare 717 to use. Airlines don't keep spare airworthy aircraft sitting around. When you spend 80 million dollars for a machine, you use it, and use it, and keep using it until it breaks. And you have the problem a finding a fully qualified, both as to equipment and route, crew of pilots and FAs, who haven't duty-timed out. And schedules would go in the toilet. A 717 can't legally fly from JFK to LAX and still have required reserves. And the 717 is 50 knots slower in cruise, so that's another delay in the schedules. A lot of people are going to miss their connections at LAX.
Now, if a flight has consistently low load factors, a permanent change might occur or the flight might be eliminated. But a change in type for 1 flight would cause nightmares, and management hates nightmares.

a reply to: LionOfGOD

If you are caught with such an implement in the United Kingdom without sufficient reason for carrying one you would receive a 6 month gaol sentence. There is a zero tolerance regarding knife carrying over here.

a reply to: andy06shake

In the US it depends on your relationship with the local cops what they do. Probably with all cops everywhere. YOu can get away with a lot if your disposition is proper.

I'm on good terms with the local cops that patrol my neighborhood. Several nights a week around 2AM (when ost people aren't looking, cuase they would likely think I'm crazy if they did) I'll practice in the alley next to may apartment with a live Itak. (Need the room for the routine) Cops will pull up and check me out and watch when they roll through for a minute. They know who I am and don't harass me although they do ask questions about the martial arts. Not sure I could get away simply walking down the street with something like this, but I can practice and play with it on the sidewalk in front of my apartment with no problems. So I guess it all depends what you are caught with and what you are doing with it.

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