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"Cowardly" Groklaw, Lavabit, and Silent Circle

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posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 10:28 AM
Thanks guys for further clarification on some questions that I think many people don't understand. I think the heart of this thread is not only about what decisions Groklaw, Lavabit and Silent Circle made....but what decisions we all have to make, sooner then later.....

The internet is perhaps the " Achilles Heel " to the Globalist Agenda, so I say we keep poking it. Some may say just expressing your opinions on a computer is meaningless, but I suggest that if millions of people flood mainstream internet sights such as Facebook with facts and discontent of the corruption consuming the US and other Countries it is Powerful...

If sights like ATS are being monitored, I say bring it on and confront the truth loud and clear. I am thankful that ATS helps me to refine my ability to discuss the critical issues surrounding the future of our World in my demographic circle of family and friends...and I see this as an important "job" we all have, to make a difference within our own realities that translates into the common goal of Freedom and the pursuit of happiness for all......yeah, yeah......corny, I know, but I really believe this........

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 10:44 AM
reply to post by ForteanOrg

Sure genius and they never back doored ARPNET or ANY other system linked to the internet.Enjoy Windows 8 bub. Some IT jock in a government office isn't squat to me. An intell puke in crypto would agree.

Don't worry Utah will save us all

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 12:10 PM
Wow, I wonder if mother Canada is up to no good aswell.

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 12:53 PM
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

I will stand with you.

United We Stand, The Rest Is, Not An Option!

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 01:21 PM

Originally posted by ADVISOR
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

I will stand with you.

United We Stand, The Rest Is, Not An Option!

NOW is the time to stand up against the powers that be as ONE people , united and fearless !!

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 01:33 PM
How do we peacefully defeat this government over-reach?

We have the right to assemble yet we rarely use it.

We have one vote but that seems like so little.

We are the generation that sat idle while our rights were being trampled.

This is a serious question. What can we peaceably do?

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 01:34 PM
So how do we translate our united stance into non-violent effective action?

Give it a few days or a week and this thread will have been forgotten.

I have a deep suspicion that this site will be in the firing line in the not too distant future...
edit on 21/8/13 by Kram09 because: spelling mistake

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 01:34 PM

Originally posted by whyamIhere
I want the program ended.

I want the agency de-funded.

I want the traitors that lied to Congress brought up on charges.

I want my 4th Amendment right back.

I want my government to respect the principles it was founded on.

I want my relatives who gave the ultimate sacrifice for this nation, to be respected.

I could go on but you get my drift...

I agree with all of your points except for de-funding the NSA. I have a more prudent viewpoint on that one The NSA, from what I can tell, was established with a two-prong purpose: 1. intelligence gathering of foreign government information and 2. to be the primary crytpography service in the US. In regards to intelligence gathering, the Truman Memo defines it as this:

The COMMT mission of the National Security Agency (NSA) shall be to provide an effective, unified organization and control of the communications intelligence activities of the United States conducted against foreign governments, to provide for integrated operational policies and procedures pertaining thereto.

It is this directive that I suspect has been wholly bastardized at some point if not by the Patriot Act, then slowly over time. as I do not see how the collection of metadata and/or content of all foreign communication passing through the US would fall under "foreign government" not to mention the US citizen metadata collection. Those two things seem to be well outside of "foreign government". In other words, I believe the NSA should leave non-governmental individuals, either foreign or domestic, alone. Does that risk a terrorist slipping through? Possibly; however, known terrorists should reasonably supply enough evidence to justify a warrant for the collection of a non-governmental individual for not only them but their affiliates. Problem is oversight of even that and oversight is a huge problem throughout the government.

Overall, we are doing infinitely more damage to our national security by being the information overlord of the world and violating the sense of rightness of a very large segment of the world's population, which, in itself, is critical for national security. Personally, I think that we've spent far too much time and effort making enemies and far too little on building friendships. Right now, how hard would it be for any nation to convince their citizens that going to war against us or even sanctioning us would be necessary. Making enemies of one's neighbors isn't a good business and, with perhaps a couple exceptions, we're really not very well liked right now.

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 02:11 PM

reply to post by ForteanOrg

Sure genius and they never back doored ARPNET or ANY other system linked to the internet.Enjoy Windows 8 bub. Some IT jock in a government office isn't squat to me. An intell puke in crypto would agree.

You are digressing. The point was not if 'ARPANET' was back-doored (it was not) nor if systems linked to the Internet are back-doored (some are and should be). We were not discussing Windows 8 either nor what I do for a living. Indeed, I might be a 14 year old girl from Sweden that simply enjoys discussing cryptography..

Anyway. You stated that all cryptographic algorithms had backdoors. That is nonsense. There are those that suspect the secret services to try to get them in there - and no doubt you are one of them. And you may even be right. However: even these algorithms will be scrutinized by the best cryptographers we have - and even if there is the slightest suspicion alarm bells will be rung. So, yes, we should be alert. But it is utter nonsense to claim that the NSA can crack any algorithm, they can't.
edit on 21-8-2013 by ForteanOrg because: (no reason given)

posted on Aug, 21 2013 @ 11:10 PM

Originally posted by Sovaka
I've seen comments back and forth about this issue and how should we deal with it.

There are only 3 ways you can deal with this overall encompassing issue;
1. ) Stand up and fight back - March to your capital and demand the resignation of your president and his cabinet, along with all those believe to be corrupt and in power.
- Install then via democracy vote, those you want in power. Install vote verification systems to ensure those you vote for get the votes. Install a form of protection in your Governing documents that allow for Performance Reviews of your elected officials on a basis that suits (6 months, 12 months) et c. With the end result being if the elect don't do as promised, then they are booted - pure and simple.

2. ) Peacefully resist by making it as hard as possible for them to spy on you.
- Support Project Meshnet. Install and Run your own SSL, Encrypted Email and File servers.
- Stop paying taxes.

3. ) Roll over and die?

Question mark arriving at option 3 is trailing the path of least effort, and
indicative of the present American body politic. Not encouraging.
Backtracking to option two, I've got a couple of friends who were evicted
in the middle of the night by people with select fire rifles for not paying taxes.

Additionally, those who take precautions on their own initiative against criminal
behavior are now themselves characterized as delusional, criminals in their own
right or both. Ain't tyranny great? All you have to do is watch it grow.

And Option One looks like it would enjoy a bigger Neilsen than the climax episode
of Dallas: and be a lot grislier considering how fast Kokesh backpedaled as armed.

For Skep: This struggle may never be over in our lifetimes, and I might have
a couple of extra laps around Sol than you- but I fully intend to get the snowball
rolling back uphill. What the heck, aeronautical engineers swear bumblebees...

Besides it has a lot more to do with what we stand for than anything else we
have to fight for: "the right to be left alone" by our government.
Looks like we'll have to reissue the memo. But everybody should be carrying the
same copy. Without one voice spoken by millions, feigned deafness will win.
edit on 21-8-2013 by derfreebie because: Characterized by a real character.

posted on Aug, 22 2013 @ 06:38 AM

Originally posted by cr33p
Wow, I wonder if mother Canada is up to no good aswell.

Yep -

Canada plans to use hexacopter drones in war against geese

On topic -

We cant even post petitions on here without it being considered 'activism', so I dont really know how we are ment to start anything at all??

posted on Aug, 22 2013 @ 12:35 PM
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

Interesting post man, i like ur avatar too

posted on Aug, 22 2013 @ 09:27 PM
It is really a shame how few people choose to keep thei integrity and shut down, rather became part of the spy network. Good job to lavabit and Groklaw and whomever else!

posted on Aug, 23 2013 @ 11:37 PM
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

I appreciate your point of view and opinion. Before you call these business owners cowards, respectfully consider how you would react in similar circumstances? These brave business owners have directly defied the government by refusing to spy on their customers. They have given up their livelihoods.

posted on Aug, 24 2013 @ 03:39 AM
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

Here is one of your so called cowards SO,

Just so you guys can see the bigger picture here. They are closing down in the USA because you CANNOT have an ethical, and secure software or cloud based data service. They did not close because the were shaking in their boots as you so eloquently put. No, in fact they are just trying to uphold the quality and high standards that their services were built upon and need to function and attract customers or users.

The More I think about the OP the more I question the level of sanity you were in when you made it. Stand together? Fight back? Unite? sounds like a "hook" while this site, that again, being the AOL or Walmart of Conspiracy sites, has no law or secret court to worry about because, again, it's so family friendly you guys can sit back and enjoy the increase in traffic due to the population looking for cheap, mediocre level, conspiracy mumbo jumbo.

Which is fine, I have nothing against a man trying to make a buck, but IMHO to call a group of people who have taken a loss because they have the integrity of their company to safeguard cowardly, is the action of terrible, although fluffy, cowardly creature. You could have sided with them at face value at the very least.

Though, nice "hook" in any case...

But, please, check yaself before ya wreck yaself, because some of us shop Walmart because we are lazy, not stupid.

The Rat.
edit on 24-8-2013 by TucoTheRat because: bubble gum is pure evil

posted on Aug, 26 2013 @ 05:10 AM

Originally posted by cr33p
Wow, I wonder if mother Canada is up to no good aswell.

Yes prety sure of that
Harper is alway's ready to kiss Obama A$$

posted on Oct, 10 2013 @ 02:07 AM
Lavabit founder refused FBI order to hand over email encryption keys

Unsealed documents show Ladar Levison, now subject of government gag order, refused requests to 'defeat its own system'The email service used by whistleblower Edward Snowden refused FBI requests to "defeat its own system," according to newly unsealed court documents.

The founder of Lavabit, Ladar Levison, repeatedly pushed back against demands by the authorities to hand over the encryption keys to his system, frustrating federal investigators who were trying to track Snowden's communications, the documents show.

Snowden called a press conference on 12 July at Moscow's international airport, using a Lavabit address. The court documents show the FBI was already targeting the secure email service before the invite was sent.

Levison is now subject to a government gag order and has appealed against the search warrants and subpoenas demanding access to his service. He closed Lavabit in August saying he did not want to be "complicit in crimes against the American people".

The court documents, unsealed on Wednesday, give the clearest picture yet of the Lavabit case. The documents, filed in the eastern district court of Virginia, are redacted and do not mention Snowden by name. But they do say the target of the FBI is under investigation for violations of the espionage act and theft of government property – the charges that have been filed against NSA whistleblower Snowden.

On 28 June the court authorised the FBI to install a "pen register trap and trace device" on all electronic communications being sent from the redacted email address, believed to be Snowden's. A pen register would allow the FBI to record all the "metadata" from the account including the e-mail "from" and "to" lines and the IP addresses used to access the mailbox.

Levison said that the client had enabled encryption on his email and that he could not access the email. "The representative of Lavabit indicated that Lavabit had the technical capability to decrypt the information, but that Lavabit did not want to 'defeat [its] own system,'" the government complained.



posted on Nov, 30 2013 @ 08:01 PM
I don't see how Pamela Jones had much choice, at least the time of shutting down. Involvement in litigation is by far the most important thing as it part of the law of the land. What the NSA has done, has compromised the law of the land, any land, anywhere or sea for that matter. She will already know that the law of the land is now null and void.
It is different for the others, as they were only messengers, even so devastating for them.
What could be worse?
Thing is Snowden has let the cat out of the bag, not that is was really a surprise, but it is now incumbent on him to cross a 'T' and dot an 'I' on anything that may have come into a courtroom, and that was a focus of attention by NSA/NCTC, and that could be construed as knowledge aforethought.

posted on Mar, 12 2016 @ 03:32 PM
While 9-11 was hardly the genesis of such systems, I can still remember back when the ensuing warrant-less wiretaps and email collections were being touted as the start of a slippery slope, and everyone defending them by saying they were necessary, and that the slippery slope argument is a fallacy. Which - alright - it is a fallacy when taken strictly as an inevitability of course, since obviously it's possible for something to simply stop or reverse but... for the rhetorical purpose of government overreach? Yes, it damn well was a slippery slope. And now we're where we are today.

If there's one thing I hope can be taken from SO's post, even if we may not all agree on the choice of words or conclusions, it should - imho - be: "We were all right." Sadly, we WERE right, and that should be sobering if not downright terrifying given what even the most skeptical among us fear might come in the future if these kinds of overreaches persist.

I can only echo what others have asked: As one who adheres to pacifism, what do we do about this? Obviously we can write to representatives, sign petitions, march (health permitting,) and speak up online. But unless such outcry truly reaches a critical mass sufficient to start hurting people's election or reelection campaigns, or pocket books, there is a growing fear in the pit of my stomach that a combination of apathy, distraction, and institutional inertia will see to it that this simply persists or - more likely given historical precedent - be discontinued, only to be secretly reconstituted under another name, and under different auspices. Until and unless there is effective and powerful public oversight that isn't strictly secret (and therefore unaccountable to anyone in the public,) this can continue in perpetuity, and more worryingly, worsen in perpetuity.

The chilling effect this has begun to have on privacy alternatives is not acceptable to me, nor imo should it be to anyone. And that there is a significant contingent arguing in response, "If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about," should be equally disquieting to anyone who cares about privacy. Granted people can simply go offline completely... but in today's society that brings suspicion with it too, even if you're just a harmless nobody.

Increasingly, it feels like society is moving towards a model wherein everyone must be:

  • Online
  • Transparent to authority
  • On a social network
  • Not drawing attention to oneself by being at all "suspicious" (meaning, anything outside the concensus norm)

... while the security state becomes increasingly non-transparent to public oversight due to overreach and secrecy. Our system has become frighteningly out of balance. As "crazy" people like us have long predicted.


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