Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

Originally posted by Haxsaw
you're being pretty judgemental yourself,

Everyone is judgmental. It's basic human evolutionary psychology to take facts and make judgements based on those facts. (it's smart) And the facts are that the Qu'ran is a mess. The plagiarism from other religions is documented. The scientific and historical errors are well documented. So are the errors in grammar and syntax - meaning that it wasn't dictated from an all-knowing God because an all-knowing God wouldn't make any of those errors.

he told you that Mohommed(saws) ordered the destruction of any copies found of the quranic verses that were in other dialects due to them being somewhat contradictive, as originally it was written down in about 7 different dialects, and as you should well know no language can be directly translated into another, so I believe that answers the OP's arguments almost in its entirety

1 - He provided no documentation to back up his claim.
2 - Even If Muhammad ordered the destruction of copies of the Quran, that still fails to address the fact that the Qu'ran that is out there is a MESS of contradictions and historical and scientific errors.
3 - The poster did NOT answer the OPs arguments in part or in entirety.

On a side note, you said "Buddhism is truly peaceful and it makes a heck of a lot more sense then Islam", well good for you ...

Stacked against Islam -Buddhism makes more sense than Islams 'orgy of the human senses' filled afterlife. Buddhism has a peaceful life and a spiritual afterlife. Islam has a violent life and a mundane orgy filled misogynistic afterlife. No thanks. I don't feel like being part of a harem and having to 'service' a man for all eternity. That 'heaven' would really be hell ...

reply to post by Fromabove

In regard to the word ‘Ummi’ mentioned in the holy Quran as in the following verse: “Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel” (007:157), Imam Muhammad al-Jawad (peace be upon him) has adequately explained its meaning in the following narrations:

Al-Saffar (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Narrated Ali bin Asba`t or [and] others who had said: "I said to Abu` Jafar (al-Jawad): 'People claim that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure family) could neither read nor write!' So, he, peace be upon him, denied that and said: 'They have lied, May the wrath of Allah be upon them! How would that be? When Allah, the Exalted, has said: '(It is) He who raised among the Ummīyīna (i.e. maternals) a Messenger from amongst them, reciting upon them His signs and purifying them and teaching them the Book and the wisdom; even though beforehand they were in a clear straying' How did he teach them the Book and the Wisdom while he could neither read nor write?’

Then Ali bin Asba`t asked the Imam: "Why was he called al-Nabi al-Ummi? To which the Imam (peace be upon him) replied: "Because he was ascribed to Mecca. That is according to the words of Allah, the Most Exalted: 'That you may warn Umm al-Qura` (i.e. the mother of villages) and those around it.' Umm al-Qura` means Mecca. So, he was called Ummi.” (Basair al-darajat, By al-Saffar, vol. 5, p. 246).

Furthermore, al-Saduq (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Narrated Ja’far ibn Muhammad al-Sufi: “I asked Abu Ja’far Muhammad son of Ali al-Rida (peace be upon them both) saying: ‘O son of Allah’s Apostle, why was the Prophet called Ummi?’ He answered: ‘What do the people say?’ I said: ‘They claim that he was called Ummi because he was illiterate.

“He replied: ‘They lie! May the curse of Allah be upon them, Allah has clearly said in His Book: ‘(It is) He who raised among the Ummīyīna (i.e. maternals) a Messenger from amongst them, reciting upon them His signs and purifying them and teaching them the Book and the wisdom’ How would he teach what he himself could not do?

“By Allah, Allah’s Apostle (peace be upon him and his pure family) used to read and write in 72, or he said 73, languages. He was called Ummi because he was from Mecca. Mecca is one of the mother towns, and this is why Allah the Most Exalted has said: ‘So that you (Muhammad) may warn the mother of villages (i.e. Mecca) and whoever is around it’.” (Ma’ani al-Akhbar, By al-Saduq, p. 53).

Accordingly, the holy Prophet (May peace be upon him and his pure family) was called Ummi in reference to Umm al-Qura which is Mecca. In other words ‘al-Nabi al-Ummi’ means a Prophet from Mecca. Similarly, one may notice that Allah the Most Exalted has also referred to the inhabitants of Mecca as “Ummīyīna” as in the following verse: “(It is) He who raised among the Ummīyīna (maternals)” (62:02) although the inhabitants of Mecca at that time were not all unable to read or write, but they were called so in reference to the holy city of Mecca.

alqatrah.net...

www.islamreligion.com/articles/18/

The codification of the Quran (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon
after the Battle of Yamamah
(11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s
death, during the Caliphate of Abu
Bakr. Many companions became
martyrs at that battle, and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire
revelation was produced, large parts
of the Quran might be lost with the
death of those who had memorized it.
Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar
to collect the Quran in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested
by Abu Bakr to head a committee
which would gather together the
scattered recordings of the Quran and
prepare a mushaf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them.[4] To safeguard the compilation from
errors, the committee accepted only
material which had been written down
in the presence of the Prophet himself,
and which could be verified by at least
two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet recite the passage in question[5]. Once completed and unanimously
approved of by the Prophet’s
Companions, these sheets were kept
with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d.
13AH/634CE), then passed on to the
Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsah[6]. The third Caliph Uthman (23AH-35AH/644-656CE) requested
Hafsah to send him the manuscript of
the Quran which was in her
safekeeping, and ordered the
production of several bounded copies
of it (masaahif, sing. mushaf). This task was entrusted to the Companions
Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah ibn Az-
Zubair, Sa’eed ibn As-’As, and Abdur- Rahman ibn Harith ibn Hisham.[7] Upon completion (in 25AH/646CE), Uthman returned the original
manuscript to Hafsah and sent the
copies to the major Islamic provinces.

A number of non-Muslim scholars who have studied the issue of the
compilation and preservation of the
Quran also have stated its authenticity.
John Burton, at the end of his
substantial work on the Quran’s
compilation, states that the Quran as we have it today is: “…the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was
organized and approved by the
Prophet…. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad.[8] Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Quran from the
time of revelation to today as
occurring in “an unbroken living sequence of devotion.”[9] Schwally concurs that: “As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be
confident that their text has been
generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet’s legacy.”

The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of
Munich (Germany), collected over
42,000 complete or incomplete
ancient copies of the Quran. After
around fifty years of research, they
reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except
the occasional mistakes of the copyist
which could easily be ascertained.
This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII.

Originally posted by FugitiveSoul
The Qu'ran is based on the Christian bible and the Torah (in that it references over 50 events from those books), and as we all know, both are full of hypocrisies, inconsistencies, source censorship, and blatant plagiarism from older faiths.

The Qu'ran is of the hand of men, like all religious texts, and as such it is inherently corruptible as men are all inherently corruptible. Books are written and rewritten to suit the needs of those who use the faithful to their own devices.

The first corruption put forth by the many houses of Abraham has always been the condemnation of the pursuit of knowledge. This stunting of the mind is the first step towards spiritual enslavement.

Religion, by design, is corrupt.

I agree that organised religion seem to miss the point. Take the Sikhism for instance. A religion that is based on seeing thru duality and becoming part of god by reaching a state of symbiosis thru meditation.

But what does the Sikhs do? They choose to push a view that to be Sikhs you should not cut your hair or shave. Your physical appearance say nothing about what you understand and your thoughts. But it does give a group duality where the Sikhs who are follow this are different than all else. They are creating a duality where they should be beyond duality already and not care about whether someone likes to have long hair or not.

I am going nuts on this planet how humans seem to go to far in their religions by adding views and by going to far missing the point totally from my point of view.

ON TOPIC -

Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt,

The Qu'ran is corrupt. It was not written by God. A perfect copy isn't in heaven.
Here ya'll go ... these facts will keep you busy reading for a while ...

Scientific Errors in the Qu'ran
Historical Errors in the Qu'ran
Grammatical Errors in the Qu'ran
What's missing in the Qu'ran
Islamic Scholar Shows Qu'ran Changes (corruption)
Some of Where Muhammad 'borrowed' the Quran Stories From

Originally posted by Sonny2

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Sonny2

 

lots of people freak out over the possibility.... it is only those who really look who will find the truth...

yeah, paid Israeli guy might be right!

Look at his signature, he is a buddhist

I told ya, he was never a muslim, just spread his propaganda.

He probably thinks that his stone god is better than Muhammad's

edit on 19-8-2013 by Sonny2 because: (no reason given)

There are people who can see where all views/religions point. I have heard non-dualism in sikhism, buddhism, jesus teachings, even heard it in a youtube where they read what Muhammed preached in his last sermon. I am not of any human religion and will not choose a view that intentionally clouds the true source of it.

"....whoever kills a single soul unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it is though he had killed all of humanity together, and whoever saves the life of a single soul, it is as though he had saved the life of all of humanity together..." Surah 5 Ayah 32

Lol more non-dualism in the Quran .

I have a feeling the OP should be described as a blessed one or sealed one. I am happy for him and hope his travel will be as comfortable as they can be on this level.

Tonight, or today, or whatever... (cant tell time when you cant sleep) I should not have posted in this thread... that was my mistake.

Right now, I cannot deal with hatred, and would see the world changed from this mindset of hate... extremism, no matter what corner it comes from is wrong...

when we should be working toward a better world, we are working to make it worse instead. My religious beliefs, or that or any one, is my own.... it only stops being my own when it hurts others, and if people were worried about that, they would learn to combat the people who are harming others instead of spewing hatred while supporting governments who support those who would harm...

I am sick of hate..... I am sick of people who want to pick a fight, or want to show off, and do not care about anything else....

People say why don't moderate muslims fight the extremists, yet when they do they get critisized. People say why this or why that, yet don't like any of the results simply because they want a reason to hate

I wish we could stop the hate. In my small corner or the world we are trying to show we don't have to hate... we can love eachother instead.... why don't more of us try for that?

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by Sonny2
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

This forum is full of people waiting for these kind of topics so that they can make fun of Muhammad, muslims and Islam. First words that this guy said was 'islam is a terrorist religion', I mean waste of time from the begining. He just copied this stuff from some anti-islam website claiming to be thruth. If he was so sure about his claims he would go to some islamic scholars and ask them. He is posting this on atheist forum full of people waiting to flag topics like this without any research or doubt, I mean, C'mon.

Islam is only a religion of peace to muslims. It is a religion of war, conquest, and death to everyone else. They live and die by the sword. Fighting and killing is all this religion does. Take a look at the middle east. If what they do is to terrorize other peoples than yes, it is a terrorist religion. If not, prove it with the facts because what I see is hate, terror, and killing.

I do not agree 100% since I have not heard of any Sufi fighting and killing. But there are people who only create duality and hate with that book so I am not sure they are ready for reading it and understanding anything spiritual.

reply to post by OpinionatedB


The only problem with the things you're quoting from is that there is no possible way to prove that Muhammad was not an illiterate. Most of the things taught are from people who only had second hand knowledge of anything Muhammad said and most of it is probably made up as needed for whatever purpose they needed it for. That's why there are so many inconsistencies in the Quran that you need abrogation to ease the mind.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Tonight, or today, or whatever... (cant tell time when you cant sleep) I should not have posted in this thread... that was my mistake.

Right now, I cannot deal with hatred, and would see the world changed from this mindset of hate... extremism, no matter what corner it comes from is wrong...

when we should be working toward a better world, we are working to make it worse instead. My religious beliefs, or that or any one, is my own.... it only stops being my own when it hurts others, and if people were worried about that, they would learn to combat the people who are harming others instead of spewing hatred while supporting governments who support those who would harm...

I am sick of hate..... I am sick of people who want to pick a fight, or want to show off, and do not care about anything else....

People say why don't moderate muslims fight the extremists, yet when they do they get critisized. People say why this or why that, yet don't like any of the results simply because they want a reason to hate

I wish we could stop the hate. In my small corner or the world we are trying to show we don't have to hate... we can love eachother instead.... why don't more of us try for that?

I don't think I heard anyone say they hated muslims. So maybe you're upset because you can't produce a counter argument to the things being discussed where it puts your religion at risk of not being what you were and probably are being taught to believe. I will have to check, but I don't see hate on this thread.

reply to post by Fromabove


here is my point in a nutshell.... what does it matter to you?

Does it make a difference in your life whether I believe the Prophet Muhammed (saww) was a Prophet?

Does it make any difference whatsoever in your life if I was to believe in the Easter Bunny instead?

If you want to save me don't worry, I don't need saving. So what is the difference to you, if I believe in anything at all?

Whats the point of telling me what I should be believing in your opinion when you do not even understand what it is that I believe at all, nor, in all reality, do you honestly care....

Originally posted by LittleByLittle

Originally posted by Fromabove

Originally posted by Sonny2
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

This forum is full of people waiting for these kind of topics so that they can make fun of Muhammad, muslims and Islam. First words that this guy said was 'islam is a terrorist religion', I mean waste of time from the begining. He just copied this stuff from some anti-islam website claiming to be thruth. If he was so sure about his claims he would go to some islamic scholars and ask them. He is posting this on atheist forum full of people waiting to flag topics like this without any research or doubt, I mean, C'mon.

Islam is only a religion of peace to muslims. It is a religion of war, conquest, and death to everyone else. They live and die by the sword. Fighting and killing is all this religion does. Take a look at the middle east. If what they do is to terrorize other peoples than yes, it is a terrorist religion. If not, prove it with the facts because what I see is hate, terror, and killing.

I do not agree 100% since I have not heard of any Sufi fighting and killing. But there are people who only create duality and hate with that book so I am not sure they are ready for reading it and understanding anything spiritual.

The fighting isnt due to the religion its due to the culture. Any religion can be used to justify anything one wishes to do. Its the cultural acceptance that sets the stage. In the Koran you can find passages of peace and acceptance or you can find passages of intolerance and war. I guess it just breaks down to which part speaks to you.The bible was originally the same way until a man named Jesus came along and updated the religion so to speak.The new testament tries to alter the old testament making it much more peaceful for example an eye for an eye is replaced with turn the other cheek. However that didnt stop the Spanish inquisition either.Again people using religion to control for there own purposes and it became the cultural norm for a while.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Tonight, or today, or whatever... (cant tell time when you cant sleep) I should not have posted in this thread... that was my mistake.

Right now, I cannot deal with hatred, and would see the world changed from this mindset of hate... extremism, no matter what corner it comes from is wrong...

when we should be working toward a better world, we are working to make it worse instead. My religious beliefs, or that or any one, is my own.... it only stops being my own when it hurts others, and if people were worried about that, they would learn to combat the people who are harming others instead of spewing hatred while supporting governments who support those who would harm...

I am sick of hate..... I am sick of people who want to pick a fight, or want to show off, and do not care about anything else....

People say why don't moderate muslims fight the extremists, yet when they do they get critisized. People say why this or why that, yet don't like any of the results simply because they want a reason to hate

I wish we could stop the hate. In my small corner or the world we are trying to show we don't have to hate... we can love eachother instead.... why don't more of us try for that?

When dealing with duality you have the fear of the person who say love have a dagger to back stab you with his kind of love/view. There is a lot of fighting going on since there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved. In one way I feel sorry for open minded muslims who are forced to live with this kind of hate in a world that is being pushed to the next stage of development on all levels. Give it enought time and it will become easier.

And it's whispered that soon, if we all call the tune, Then the piper will lead us to reason. And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, And the forests will echo with laughter.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now, It's just a spring clean for the May queen. Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run There's still time to change the road you're on. And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know, The piper's calling you to join him, Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know Your stairway lies on the whispering wind?

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Right now, I cannot deal with hatred, ....

- The information in the OP isn't hate. It's just factual information.

- Asking for information from you when you dispute that information isn't 'hate'. It's just asking for information from you to back up what you are claiming.

- Organized religions have a lot of hate. Islam included. If you don't like hate then perhaps you should consider leaving organized religion and being free of it.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
Does it make a difference in your life whether I believe the Prophet Muhammed (saww) was a Prophet?

I don't think anyone gives a hoot what you believe or don't believe. This is a discussion forum so people are discussing the FACTS of what the OP has stated. Just the facts. And the facts point to him being correct ... that the Qu'ran is corrupt and not of God. So far, I've seen tons of facts backing up what he said and I haven't seen any facts showing the Qu'ran is accurate or from God, neither from you or the other Islam apologists.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Fromabove

 

here is my point in a nutshell.... what does it matter to you?

Does it make a difference in your life whether I believe the Prophet Muhammed (saww) was a Prophet?

Does it make any difference whatsoever in your life if I was to believe in the Easter Bunny instead?

If you want to save me don't worry, I don't need saving. So what is the difference to you, if I believe in anything at all?

Whats the point of telling me what I should be believing in your opinion when you do not even understand what it is that I believe at all, nor, in all reality, do you honestly care....

Yes. It matters because your religion insists that I and all people of other faiths must bow down to Muhammad or be killed, which is not going to happen. Islam is never content to leave the world alone and just be muslims. Jihad for instance, did you know that it used to mean the individual struggle to be a true muslim before allah. Now it means war with the infidels.

So, my point is, it matters a lot what you believe because what you believe in is not accurate, full of inconsistencies and contradictions, and is bent towards world conquest. If you would realize that you could be free of it. And I think this is where the OP was going on this.

reply to post by Fromabove


I dont believe that, and i AM muslim... I have yet to kill my husband for being a christian too.... he appears to be surviving fairly well.... although I think he is too thin and try to get him to eat more....

ive got some catching up on this thread to do.. .in the mean time.. ill drop this here for consideration:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Fromabove

 

I dont believe that, and i AM muslim... I have yet to kill my husband for being a christian too.... he appears to be surviving fairly well.... although I think he is too thin and try to get him to eat more....

I understand that. muslims do not get up in the morning and say "I must kill infidels today". They will however by and large obey a fatwa of war or a decree by a mullah or even an Ayatollah to rise up and kill if told to do so. Your husband is a Christian and he chose to marry you so that is his decision. But both of you know that you can never live in a muslim nation because of that fact. Yet in the west no one cares because it is your choice. And yet you still want to remain a muslim woman? (If it's too personal you don't have to respond to my last statement.)

reply to post by Fromabove


yes, I still want to remain a Muslim woman....

why? Because its what I believe.....

why my husband, because I love him for who he is.....

care, respect, understanding, and peace starts with one.... it can snowball from there... I am not the first, nor will I be the last, and some day.... will come the snowball, which will move faster as it gets bigger....

I am good with that.