Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

reply to post by babloyi

Dude ... it's a fact. The Qur'an is nothing more than poorly transcribed bits and pieces of other religions .. with a bunch of misogyny thrown in. It's full of historical and scientific errors. That's not opinion. That's fact. It's not magically transcribed from God ... it's just poorly transcribed from Muhammads memory of other religions around him.

reply to post by wildtimes

Instead of defending your religion, when it is the VERY REASON that Syria has a problem?!!! You really don't see it, do you? No, as usual, you don't.

i see things much clearly than you think.
Religion is not the problem in Syria. Its your opinion as it confirms your world view that all religions are just trouble.
Its different interpretations by people because of their varied selfish interests.
Selfish behaviour by people does not in any way refute that there is God or that He sends prophets and revealations.
The actions of the church and crusades does not refute that Jesus pbuh was sent by God as a Prophet.
The wrong actions of ottoman empire does not refute that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was sent as a Prophet with a revealation.

The condition of the world is due to behaviours, actions and inactions of PEOPLE which belongs to all groups but basically are humans with human weakness of greed, selfishness etc.
You say that morality can exist without God consciousness. How about appealing to the morals of all weapon making companies to shut down manufacturing and selling?
NO BULLETS, NO WAR! right?

Try to keep your personal agenda of religion bashing distinct from showing concern about the condition of the world.

I am not going to do things here on ATS the way you want. So stop telling people what they should or should not discuss especially by trolling on threads that are debating a different topic. I already asked you this once before but you repeated it again today.
Yes i know you are so concerned about current events and then you see people debating not that important topics and you can't make sense of it!
You basically want everyone to think and feel like you do. good luck with that..

If the Muslim community should be
doing ANYTHING right now, it's
insisting on PEACE.
Either work for peace, or STFU

so muslims need your golden advice to realise what they should be doing?
what do you advice to Syrian muslims who have to take up weapons to defend their neighbourhoods as US backed terrorists try to wreck havoc? Should they put white flags and no bullets or grenades would come their way by the powerful shielding effect of peaceful white flags!!!

Quit throwing around the word Peace like you own it.
Would US back off if Assad asked for a peaceful solution but on condition that he remains in power?
Is US' idea of peace not that every sovereign nation accepts the domination of US and Israel? And anyone who resists becomes a threat to US interests!!
The situation the world is in right now is due to arrogance of super powers trying to dominate and forcing other nations to pick sides or change camps.
If India decides to switch to the side of Russia and China, then soon you'l be told how bad the hindus are blah blah so don't tell me to STFU when its you who is trying to annoy muslim posters to make a stand for peace or get judged badly. Do you really think i care what you think of me? I have my ethics, morals and integrity and i don't need you to teach me with a superior western tone.

reply to post by logical7


My Rep wrote me back: He DID listen; And, 20 Need-To-Knows re Syrian Rebels

Go ahead, chime in there. I DARE YOU. READ the OP, I doubt you'll do that.
I doubt you'll even look at it, since I'm so WRONG and in the minority and out of touch with REALITY..
and TROLLING.


You are a real piece of work. :shk: What a gutless wonder, as they say down under.

Do you really think i care what you think of me? I have my ethics, morals and integrity and i don't need you to teach me with a superior western tone.

hypocrite.

Syria's rebels: 20 things you need to know

7. There have been efforts to unite the rebels, but still there's no central figure leading them. And if the regime falls, it's anybody's guess what could happen next.

An organization known as the Supreme Military Council, which formed late last year, now unites many rebel groups.

And for now, the rebels are working together to achieve a common goal -- toppling al-Assad's government. Here's how one local al-Nusra front leader put it to CNN in April: "In the period after the regime falls, our main goal is to create an Islamic state that is ruled by the Koran. It can have civilian institutions, but not democracy. We look at the other Free Syrian Army rebels as one of many groups defending religion, so we support them. In the future, we will handle this differently."

8. Religion motivates many of them.

The rebels are largely made up of Sunni Muslims battling against al-Assad's minority Alawite sect, which is associated with Shia Islam. Weapons and funds from Iran's Shia rulers have helped the Syrian regime, while Sunni states like Saudi Arabia have reportedly supported Syrian rebels.

"The conflict has become increasingly sectarian, with the conduct of the parties becoming significantly more radicalized and militarized," the UN said earlier this year.

That doesn't bode well for Syria's future. Studies have said religious civil wars are longer and bloodier than other types of clashes. They're also twice as likely to recur and twice as deadly to noncombatants.

ADDRESS THIS, MISTER HOLIER-THAN-THOU-with-morals-and-integrity. Stubborn, foolish men are the problem.

reply to post by wildtimes


I had already went to the thread you made, read it and i appreciate it
i was actually reading the replies on it till now, i also appreciate that FF also tried to do her part

and TROLLING.

well you are trolling here if you come on this thread and criticize people for debating a certain topic and not doing anything for Syria!!
Why not just send u2u to people if you want them to tell their views on a topic you are concerned about?

Maybe I'm depressed, but this thread certainly hasn't helped. I was excited at first, and tried to follow the discussion, but after awhile, I started to lose track of the points being made. Then a new tone crept in, argumentative and ugly. No real problem with that, that's to be expected (unfortunately) in threads dealing with Islam.

Now, despite the best efforts of Shabi and others, it has been largely side-tracked, and I'm sorry for our loss.

For Muslims (or any religionist for that matter) to say that the words we have in this book are exactly the words God dictated to humanity, his perfect speech, telling us everything we need to know; and then to say "But, of course all of the dozens (200?) different sects all interpret it differently, so really nobody knows what it means," is absurd on its face.

Dear logical7, you can write anything you'd like in any forum you'd like, but from my biased, Western, point of view, you're not making Islam seem attractive.

Dear wildtimes, I noticed your new avatar and can only conclude that the caption is something like "I've never had "bed head" like this!"

reply to post by charles1952

Dear logical7, you can write anything you'd like in any forum you'd like,

i know i can.

but from my biased, Western, point of view, you're not making Islam seem attractive.

well, Islam is a complete way of life that revolves around the basic principle of God consciousness each moment. Be it work, home, public place, entertainment or politics.
The western secular way compartmentalized it all and makes God a personal option that is better expressed at home and at place of worship only.
I understand why it appears so alien and unattractive to you. You cannot love the World and God at the same time.
Its never a matter of being attractive/appealing or unattractive/unappealing when it comes to God. The question is who is God in between you and God. God with the complete meaning of the word understood in its full intensity if you get what i mean
its easy once you realize your own place.

Originally posted by logical7
The situation the world is in right now is due to arrogance of super powers trying to dominate and forcing other nations to pick sides or change camps.

More taqiyya and kitman from you. SOME problems in the world are due to superpowers. But a whole lotta' problems in the world are due to Islam being incompatible with itself, and the rest of the world. It's just that simple. I see you continually deflecting on the problems Islam inherently has with getting along with others and itself ...


ON TOPIC -

Originally posted by charles1952
For Muslims (or any religionist for that matter) to say that the words we have in this book are exactly the words God dictated to humanity, his perfect speech, telling us everything we need to know; and then to say "But, of course all of the dozens (200?) different sects all interpret it differently, so really nobody knows what it means," is absurd on its face.

It's obvious that the Qu'ran isn't from God. God wouldn't make errors. The Qu'ran is loaded with scientific and historical errors. It's got syntax errors and it gets confused in many places as to who is speaking. It's a mess. And God seems to be pretty .... um .... sexed up, when it comes to what he thinks is important. It is easy to see the bits and pieces of other religions that Muhammad was trying to remember when he put it all together. His memory must not have been very good at that point. He told old stories from the Jews, Christians Pagans and Zoroastarians .. and he screwed up the stories when he retold them.

Originally posted by logical7
I have my ethics, morals and integrity and i don't need you to teach me with a superior western tone.

'ethics, morals and integrity' according to the Qu'ran and interpretation of that Qu'ran by Imams ...

Taqiyya and Kitman are just fine and dandy. It's okay to steal from non muslims and rape them. Don't make friends with Jews and Christians. Go fight and kill in the name of God and to spread Islam. Women are worth less than men. Women can and should be beaten. Women can't have their fair share of an inherence. Women can't have their equal say in a court of law. Owning slaves (non muslims) is great. No freedom of speech. No freedom of religion. Don't tell the truth about Muhammad or you'll get your head chopped off. No freedom to dress as you wish - show an ankle and be beaten by 'morals police'. Torture is just fine (cut off hands, feet, and fingertips, gouge out eyes). Rape victims are whipped to death and rapists get off because it's the womans fault. Women have to 'service' their husbands even if they don't want to have sex at that time - they are treated as sexual pleasure objects and not people with their own feelings. And of course the Sharia extremists based on the Qur'an .. chopping off hands if a child is caught stealing ... etc etc

Yeah .... lots of ethics, morals and integrity there ...

Western secular rule of law obviously IS superior. It's not a 'tone'. It's a fact. One look at that mess of so-called 'ethics, morals and integrity', and it's obvious.

reply to post by logical7

your rebuttal is based on half truths

Regarding the superiority of the recitations of Ubay ibn Ka'b and Abdullah ibn Masu'd above the recitation of Zaid ibn Thabit;

I presented 7 authentic ahadith from Sahih al-Bukhari,... 1 authentic hadith from Sahih Muslim,... 1 authentic hadith from Mustadrak al-Haakim,... 1 hadith from Siyar aa’laam an-Nubalaa,... 1 tafsir commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali,... and an excerpt from Al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an.

You presented ZERO sources, yet I am the one speaking falsities and half-truths?

Abu bakr r.a and Umar r.a called him to compile the Qur'an. So if the hadith you present as proof for ibn Masud's superiority says that Umar praised him. What you have to say that Umar agreed along with Abu Bakr to give the task to Zaid? Actions speak louder than words i guess.

Or you would now like to claim that all Caliphs were co-conspirators in the Uthmani TakeOVER

Here, you are utterly wrong. Please allow me to correct you.

This is the traditional line of succession of Islam:

1. Prophet Muhammad
2. Abu Bakr
3. Umar
4. Uthman
5. Ali


It was Abu Bakr and Uthman who relied upon Zaid ibn Thabit. It was NOT Umar, as you have incorrectly mentioned.

Umar and Ali did not commission Zaid. Let us examine anything "odd" regarding the two Caliphs who did not commission Zaid.

* Umar: Made a public address to clear his conscious that the verses of stoning were left out of the Qur'an [1]

* Ali: Compiled the first fully complete manuscript of the Qur'an, which had a drastically different arrangement of the sentences of the Qur'an than the Zaid/Uthman Qur'an. When you change sentence arrangement, you also change the overall meaning and context of the adjacent sentences in general. [2]

reply to post by logical7

Also you try to portray that those praised in the hadiths you quoted played no part or were disgregarded during the compilation of Qur'an. Which is not the case.
Zaid had a strict guideline to include any verse. It must be written in the presence of the Prophet himself and two witness who had seen it.
If Ubay ibn Kab and Ibn Masud had a variation then they did not bring it up or object.

Once again, you are completely wrong. Actually, I already mentioned this in the op as well. [1] [2] [3]

Please allow me to correct you.



* Abdullah ibn Mas'ud

As one example of many, according to Ibn Mas’ud’s teaching, the Arabic recitation of Qur’an 9:3 that we have today is incorrect:

Narrated by Ibrahim:
The companions of 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) came to Abu Darda', (and before they arrived at his home), he looked for them and found them. Then he asked them, "Who among you can recite (Qur'an) as 'Abdullah recites it?"

They replied, "All of us."

He asked, "Who among you knows it by heart?"

They pointed at 'Alqama. Then he asked Alqama, "How did you hear 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud reciting Surat Al-Lail (Chapter 92: The Night)?"

Alqama recited "By the male and the female."

Abu Ad-Darda said, "I testify that I heard the Prophet reciting it likewise, but these people want me to recite it: "And by Him Who created male and female," but by Allah, I will not follow them."

[Sahih al-Bukhari 6.468]
[Sahih al-Bukhari 5.85]
[Sahih al-Bukhari 5.105]

Abdullah ibn Mas’ud recitation:
” By the night as it envelops,
And by the day as it appears in brightness.
By the male and the female,
Certainly your efforts and deeds are diverse.”

Uthmani recitation:
” By the night as it envelops,
And by the day as it appears in brightness.
By Him who created the male and the female,
Certainly your efforts and deeds are diverse.”

[Qur’an 92:1-4]

There are many more documented discrepancies between Ibn Mas’ud’s recitation and the recitation compiled by Zaid, commissioned by Uthman. Ibn Mas’ud taught a different Qur’an than the Uthmani Qur’an.

When Uthman’s Authorized Qur’an was launched as the official standard, surprisingly, Ibn Mas’ud’s compilations of the Qur’an were also ordered to be burnt. Ibn Mas’ud strongly objected to the order:

'Abdullah (Ibn Mas'ud) reported that he (said to his companions to conceal their copies of the Qur'an) and further said: “He who conceals anything he shall have to bring that which he had concealed on the Day of Judgment,” and then said: “After whose mode of recitation you command me to recite? I in fact recited before Allah's Messenger (s.a.w.s.) more than seventy chapters of the Qur'an and the Companions of Allah's Messenger (s.a.w.s.) know it that I have better understanding of the Book of Allah (than they do), and if I were to know that someone had better understanding than I, I would have gone to him.”

Shaqiq said: I sat in the company of the Companions of Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) but I did not hear anyone having rejected that (that is, his recitation) or finding fault with it.”

[Sahih Muslim 6022]

CONTINUED

reply to post by logical7



* Ubay ibn Ka'b

Umar said, "Ubay was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur'an) yet we leave some of what he recites." Ubay says, "I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever." But Allah said, "None of Our Revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar." (2.106)

Sahih al-Bukhari 6.527

As one example amongst many, according to the preeminent Qur’an scholar and translator Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Ubay’s recitation of Qur’an 33:6 is different than the Uthmani version:

In some Qira'ahs (Recitations), like that of Ubay ibn Ka'ab, occur also the words "and he is a father of them", which imply his spiritual relationship and connection with the words "and his wives are their mothers".

Ubay ibn Ka’b recitation:
”The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves and he is a father of them, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs (emigrants from Mecca): nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).”

Uthmani Recitation:
”The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs (emigrants from Mecca): nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).”

[Qur’an 33:6]

reply to post by logical7

Does praising an individual make him infallible authority?

I thought that was how a Muslim was supposed to practice Islam; by adhering to the authority of Prophet Muhammad.

Ubay ibn Ka'b and Abdullah ibn Mas'ud weren't simply or merely praised. Prophet Muhammad specifically praised them and made an authoritative command to learn the Qur'an from them.

So now, are you telling me that in Islam, when Muhammad makes proclamation, it is to be ignored in favor of the ruling of his 3rd successor Uthman?

Zaid was a gifted scribe. ibn Mas'ud and ibn Ka'b were gifted Qur'an reciters and experts. But we see Uthman ignore the Qur'an experts proclaimed by Muhammad, in favor of a writing expert. And then we see argument, disagreement, and difference between the "scribe" and the "Qur'an reciters".






* Zaid ibn Thabit: Expert scribe of Muhammad. Chosen by Abu Bakr and Uthman to compile the written Qur'an.

* Abdullah ibn Mas'ud: Expert reciter of the Qur'an, praised and recommended by Muhammad. Disagreed with Zaid's Qur'an.

* Ubay ibn Ka'b: Expert reciter of the Qur'an, praised and recommended by Muhammad. Disagreed with Zaid's Qur'an.


How can anyone ignore these points or brush them off so easily without ever investigating them or even attempting to ACTUALLY debunk them with equal or stronger source-evidence?

reply to post by charles1952


Hello there Charles. May Peace be upon you!

What you see in this thread is predictably noted by psychologists, philosophers, and behavioral scientists. Once the very foundations of a person's belief-system have been challenged in a serious way, it becomes a threat to one's entire understanding of life its self!

We humans tend a few predictable modes of reaction:

Ridicule or make the challenge into a joke.

Completely ignore and reject the challenge and carry on as if nothing has happened.

Rationalize and justify opposition to the challenge with weaker and less-viable points.

Rely upon emotion, anger, and aggression instead of clear-headed thinking.




What we see is a true reaction of the human psyche, in response to a very real and very serious challenge to a belief-system.

If the information had been so easily falsifiable, perhaps we would not have encountered such degrees of anger and hostility as shown.

If this thread and its information can not be properly and thoroughly falsified, the psychological and emotional escalation due to the attachment of incorrect beliefs, if any occur, will be hate and violence to the messenger. That is why it becomes dangerous to debate such topics in a serious manner, in an open and public setting.

It takes a courageous person to question their understandings and beliefs, and to accept challenges to those understandings and beliefs, without resorting to negativity.

May Peace be upon us all. Keep your smile up Charles

reply to post by Sahabi

It takes a courageous person to question their understandings and beliefs, and to accept challenges to those understandings and beliefs, without resorting to negativity.

May Peace be upon us all.

Indeed. Thanks, Sahabi.

Wow ..beautiful thread ...loaded with all the trappings we humans find ourselves in from time to time .I thank you op for a much better understanding and a picture of a true and sincere gentleman .Peace to you and may all find peace.

Originally posted by Sahabi
If this thread and its information can not be properly and thoroughly falsified, the psychological and emotional escalation due to the attachment of incorrect beliefs, if any occur, will be hate and violence to the messenger. That is why it becomes dangerous to debate such topics in a serious manner, in an open and public setting.

It takes a courageous person to question their understandings and beliefs, and to accept challenges to those understandings and beliefs, without resorting to negativity.

edit on 9/7/13 by Sahabi because: (no reason given)

why not ! Islam is not the religion of ignorance and it does not want deaf and blind followers.

Do not follow what you do not know. The hearing, sight and heart about all these you shall be questioned. -Koran 17:36

and who when they are reminded of the verses of their lord, they do not fall down deaf and blind. -Koran 25:73

when it is said to them: 'follow what allah has sent down, ' they reply: 'we will follow that which we found our fathers upon, ' even though their fathers did not understand anything and they were not guided. -Koran 2:170

every human will be questioned about how they live and what they do and believe.
these are common questions which every muslim or non muslim may have.
Islam does not let anyone to believe in something blindly.

reply to post by maes2



Thats not true every religion wants deaf or blind followers when you ask questions you begin to see the truth. And religions hate the truth because people realize they have been lied to. When you start truly examining religions you see the inconsistencies you see the half truths and you see the superstition of it all.












thats

reply to post by maes2

Islam is not the religion of ignorance and it does not want deaf and blind followers.

Regarding jihad and holy-war,... Allah does indeed want deaf and blind followers. Allah says that regarding jihad, Muslims are ordered to fight, and if they dislike or question it, it is because they are ignorant because "Allah knows but you do not know".

"Jihad is ordained for you though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know."

Qur'an 2:216

reply to post by maes2


Be it Islam or Christianity or Scientology or whatever. Most religions want followers to completely trust the leadership/interpretation of that religion and not to question it .. and not to look too deeply at it's thought process. Some even go so far as to say if you are questioning it then you are sinning.

Try being a Muslim in a Muslim country and go around asking logical questions about Muhammad being a thief and murderer .... and ask what proof there is that Muhammad was actually telling the truth about having heavenly visions .... see how long you are allowed to live after daring to ask common sense questions about Muhammad.