Question regarding NSA/BND cooperation.

Good evening ATS!

I have a question for you, regarding a recent rumour in Germany about the NSA/BND cooperation.

As you might know, the NSA-spying-scandal made some big headlines and waves in our media.
You might also know that we Germans tend to react a little allergic to domestic spying, because of our grim history with the Nazi Gestapo and the SED Stasi (pretty much the predecessor organizations of what the U.S. alphabet-thugs turn out to be).
What you probably don't know, is that we are in an election year, so everything presented / or NOT presented by our media right now is to be taken with caution for us.

This being said...

There is apparently a rumour going around that the NSA and BND were working in close cooperation, much closer than we knew.
According to said rumour, the BND has created their own little Gestapo-programs.
Programs allegedly so efficient, that even the NSA was interested in them.

If true, this could have very serious consequences here!

Since we're in an election year, and since our media is compliant with our Government for the most part (not as much as in the U.S., IMHO, but still...) there isn't much clarification about this to be expected from them.

The only thing I could find to cite anything about this from our media is this article by Der Spiegel Online: Mass Data: Transfers from Germany Aid US Surveillance

[...]US agents also showed an interest in two BND programs, which, according to American experts, were to some extent even more effective than their own solutions.

So now I'm asking you, ATS... does anyone on here by any chance know anything more about this?

Any contribution would be much appreciated.

Pretty much everything I've seen so far in regards to collusion between the NSA and BND has come from Spiegel Online as well. They have a large number of well written articles on this subject though they admit to keeping some documents from the public.

If you haven't already seen it the following article was pretty damning about the NSA/BND collaboration.
'Key Partners': Secret Links Between Germany and the NSA

I'd say it's definitely not rumor. In fact, it seems Germany may have been more helpful than the UK in some ways. I've been downright surprised at how close the two nations have been in reading about it recently. Although,. to believe my last link below, all that's over now.

What the Germans knew about the spy in the U.S.
(OP.. I'm sorry, You're German. I feel like an idiot. Why post a bad translation? Here is the Original Article as it was written in German. It may be a whole lot more valuable to you..and I'm sorry I don't read German myself as the translation is ..challenging)

Mass Data: Transfers from Germany Aid US Surveillance

and from the associated press, August 2nd:

GERMANY ENDS COLD WAR SPYING PACT WITH US, BRITAIN (Sorry for caps. The AP likes it that way)

I think if the FULL truth ever came out, some of the nations loudest and quickest to condemn the UK and US are among those who have worked in all this the closest over the decades. The US may have led the parade by technology, but I think we're finding it's been a loooong and diverse parade.

To add.. In reference to that last link? I hadn't read the caption to the photo...That puts some context to it that isn't the best. Particularly on the last line. Hmm... The band plays on I guess.

FILE - The July 8, 2013 file photo shows the former monitoring base of the U.S. intelligence organization National Security Agency (NSA) in Bad Aibling, near Munich, southern Germany, that was closed in 2004. The German government has canceled a Cold War-era surveillance pact with the United States and Britain following concerns about their alleged electronic eavesdropping in Germany. Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle said Friday, Aug, 2, 2013 that ending the agreement was "a necessary and proper consequence of the recent debate about protecting personal privacy." A government official says the move is largely symbolic and has no practical consequences for intelligence cooperation. (AP Photo/Matthias Schrader)

What I kinda get from this is that the NSA likes their sticky little fingers in everything. I guess Germany was even somewhat unaware of being watched. But then realized it may be better to just go with the flow and cooperate. I may be wrong though.
A few other sources, hopefully I posted them right, I'm a nub.

Germany sends massive amounts of phone email data to NSA

Merkel runs for re-election

Good morning and thanks a lot for your input!

Perhaps I should have worded my question a little more specific.
Everything we learned up until now about the cooperation of NSA / BND and their doings (mainly through Snowden; reported by Spiegel) is bad enough in itself...

The rumour about the BND programs I was indicating, if true, would make things much worse from our point of view.
Our BND themselves, not only acting in complicity with the NSA, but also directly delivering a tool (made in Germany) for domestic spying to them, would break some serious laws, and border on treasonous behaviour towards the German people.

I take it there is nothing more known about that particular topic?

reply to post by wrabbit2000

Thanks for your post Wrabbit.

Originally posted by wrabbit2000
I think if the FULL truth ever came out, some of the nations loudest and quickest to condemn the UK and US are among those who have worked in all this the closest over the decades. The US may have led the parade by technology, but I think we're finding it's been a loooong and diverse parade.

I have to agree... I'm afraid this might very well be the case.
I highly doubt the FULL truth will come out now though, if at all.
Chancellor Merkels admin and the BND are doing everything to keep a lid on the story, especially now.

Originally posted by wrabbit2000
OP.. I'm sorry, You're German. I feel like an idiot. Why post a bad translation? [...]

No worries.
Unfortunately the article you linked is the original version of the same article I linked in the opening post, but thank you in any case.

Originally posted by wrabbit2000
In reference to that last link? I hadn't read the caption to the photo...That puts some context to it that isn't the best. Particularly on the last line. Hmm... The band plays on I guess.

The band plays on indeed.
This part in the AP article also underlines that this was nothing more than an unsubtle campaigning maneuver:

"The government needs to do something to show voters it's taking the issue seriously," said Henning Riecke of the German Council on Foreign Relations, a Berlin-based think tank. "Ending an agreement made in the pre-Internet age gives the Germans a chance to show they're doing something, and at the same time the Americans know it's not going to hurt them. Given the good relations between the intelligence agencies, they'll get the information they need anyway."

reply to post by ColCurious


Dagger Complex is being moved to Wiesbaden heritage home.



The construction site is interesting. Here are some of the things I noticed.

Here is the Google map for a closer look.

goo.gl...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And don't forget the German BND officer who decided to spy on his daughter. She found the software and turned it over to Anonymous. And it was supposed to be something that was NSA/BND related. Germany was also mixed up with STUXnet servers.

reply to post by JBA2848

Thanks for your input too, JBA2848.

Very interesting thread you have there... I didn't know about the Sarkozy connection.

Its just disappointing that my question couldn't be answered.
I guess this subject is just too far above top secret for this forum.