The Iroquois Are Not Giving Up

reply to post by whatnext21


That's the thing isn't it?

The "white man" came here and killed and made treaties with the "Indians" (which the white man didn't stay true to the treaties). They got conquered. I don't feel their treatment was right, nor justified, but they did at that time. It has happened all the time throughout history and will continue to happen. Just as the "Indians" did to other "Indians". They killed them, and got their land. Are they going to give it back or make reparations to the people that first occupied the land? How to prove that? I think this is going to be a long stalemate...

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

EDIT- To the people that are starring the post where I might get the "Worst Post Award". Don't be a coward. Tell me why you believe I am wrong and lay out your points. I am interested to read them. Don't be scared.

I got your point in that post (and I am one of those that feel that the Iroquois should at least have historical recognition with regard to the U.S. cheating them when it came to treaties), but apparently there are those that simply didn't. I wouldn't expect a plethora of responses to your challenge, though.

reply to post by superman2012


The deal is, they didn't kill them, or defeat them. They signed treaties with them.

We hinge law on treaties that go back 700 years. But it would appear that we only pay attention to the treaties which are convenient.

Why doesn't everyone talk about the people who rule Latin America giving back the land to the natives that were there before the Spanish conquest?

When is Spain and the ruling families going to pay back the Incas for all the gold they stole?

reply to post by FlyersFan


I didn't comment on the current lawsuits and I have no opinion of that.
I simply took issue with the idea that the Iroquois went "quietly off in to the night".
The whole continent was a pushing contest in many ways between tribes and the Iroquois were very aggressive in that regard.
The weaker tribes were simply pushed West so yes, you are correct for all practical purposes they did the same thing the colonists did.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by superman2012

 

The deal is, they didn't kill them, or defeat them. They signed treaties with them.

We hinge law on treaties that go back 700 years. But it would appear that we only pay attention to the treaties which are convenient.

Just like the rest of government...

They signed the treaties so they could get their way without having to kill anymore of them. They did it by lying instead. Like I stated earlier, the "Indians" thought they were putting one over on the "white men" and the "white men" thought they were putting one over on the "Indians". Technology won, just as it always has and will.

I'm not saying it is right, but it happens. The American people vote in representatives that in turn do the same thing to other countries. It isn't right, but it happens. Remember Iraq? They had something the West wanted. We took it. They lost.

Originally posted by ProfessorChaos

Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

EDIT- To the people that are starring the post where I might get the "Worst Post Award". Don't be a coward. Tell me why you believe I am wrong and lay out your points. I am interested to read them. Don't be scared.

I got your point in that post (and I am one of those that feel that the Iroquois should at least have historical recognition with regard to the U.S. cheating them when it came to treaties), but apparently there are those that simply didn't. I wouldn't expect a plethora of responses to your challenge, though.

Don't get me wrong, I believe they should get something for the government breaking the treaties...but they aren't ever going to get their original land back.

I too, do not expect any responses...in fact, I was giggling waiting for the star count on that post to go up. There are quite a few anonymous cowards on forums.

reply to post by Bassago


What are they going to sink a ship with? arrows or spears.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Maybe it's true that humanity's story will always be that of the strong overtaking the weaker. But should we just assume this?

Or might we try and build a culture and society that protects the rights of all? Isn't this what we claim to be doing, or some even say have done? I think it is a better idea to try and improve the ways of our civilizations instead of simply accepting a constant cycle of rising conquests and fallen victims.

The history of Native Americans is a major aspect that requires some type of reconciliation if we are to build a world that truly respects others and protects rights. It might not have to involve land/monetary compensation but I do think we need a change in the common view toward the situation. There has to be a paradigm shift toward sympathy for victims and realizations that the world we have now is built on exactly the cycle of war that we'd like to prevent in the future. People/nations of the future have to act in a distinctly different way than those in the past if the world is going to improve.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


A good way to move forward is to: forgive the past, learn from it, move on.

reply to post by superman2012



Well, we didn't exactly conquer Iraq by treaty.

But we can certainly agree that it is wrong. Taking this conversation beyond just the philosophical.....i would suppose it is just another brick in the wall.

reply to post by superman2012


That's much easier to say for a Westerner than any else. To me this gap between the two sides has to close some to make the world more peaceful. Until the West changes it's tone and condemns much of the history and adopts more sympathy toward the rest of the world then you can never expect descendants of conquered people to simply forgive and forget.

The lesson hasn't been fully learned yet, not even close. Hence the continued state of warfare worldwide.

In many ways this is a parallel issue to the Middle East and the ongoing discussions of inequality of African Americans.

reply to post by pierregustavetoutant
You're right, and Muslims are going to replace us, and minorities are poised to start getting what they perceive has their just reparations. Our present government is determined to punish anyone who is not of color, and take everything we have. Muslims just want to oppress infidels. I guess after all that happens, they can war amongst themselves, and kill each other off.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


I am second generation Canadian. My grandparents came here from Latvia. Everything they had, they earned and worked hard to get it. Same with my parents, same with me.

I don't care if someone had a treaty with my grandparents. I feel good earning and working for myself and my family without resorting to past debts.

PS- I am made to feel guilty about this, even though it had nothing to do with me or my lineage.

PPS- They lost everything in the war...should I be filing for reparations on their behalf with Germany?

reply to post by superman2012


I think that is a good attitude to have, working for yourself. It would be great for all people to take on the same mentality especially those from hard circumstances because they'll need it.

But, I do think there has to be some widespread acknowledgement at some point that our history had a lot of victims and never should be repeated. Settling debts, I'm not so sure about. But I think the conversation at least brings awareness on the debts that exist and the tilted structure of our world that is built on part from ruthless conquest.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


I agree with you, but until people learn to forgive and move on, we will always be stuck in the past. Hand up not a hand out. Even if there were wrongs in the past, what can be done to move on and move forward...that is what people should be asking. To undo hundreds of years of history is not feasible. We must move forward as a society, not as different warring tribes.

Everyone here forgets that might makes right. so tough crap natives. Treatise or not... who ever had the pointiest stick won and as long as the natives don't have a pointier stick today they are getting NADA


that's the way the USA rolls.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by superman2012

 

I think that is a good attitude to have, working for yourself. It would be great for all people to take on the same mentality especially those from hard circumstances because they'll need it.

But, I do think there has to be some widespread acknowledgement at some point that our history had a lot of victims and never should be repeated. Settling debts, I'm not so sure about. But I think the conversation at least brings awareness on the debts that exist and the tilted structure of our world that is built on part from ruthless conquest.

Are apologies enough of an acknowledgment?