Are atheists mentally ill? The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability

reply to post by charles1952


Glad to convers again with you.

Maybe religion is good for some people that way but I would like to think it wouldn’t be the case. We have had this talk before about philosophy and how it can take the place of religion. You are correct in a sense that maybe I am a bit more selfish in a way. I want to experience as much as I can in this life it has pushed me to travel the world the saying of you only get one shot but at the same time I have risked my life on the same premise in the name of experience.

My father who I think was an atheist although he may have had some hope in reincarnation was one of the most generous men you could meet almost to a fault and was dedicated to his family and friends. Both he and I served our country in times of peace and war as he believed in honor and duty so I do as well. I admit much of who I am comes from my admiration of him. I guess I am a second generation atheist but I think I am living on par with most of faith.

Even though I know there is no prize at the end of the tunnel it makes me want to do better with what I have now and I think it is human nature to want to leave behind something good you can be remembered for even if it is just your deeds.


BTW when you coming down this way? We can grab that beer there is a new microbrewery near by I would like to try.

reply to post by charles1952

You raise the question of motivation. Seriously, and completely honestly, if I professed Atheism, I would probably also be an Hedonist.

My goal would be to get all the pleasure I could out of life, always thinking out what would make me the happiest. And why not? If I only have 80 years, I want to have the most fun possible, whatever that might mean. I certainly wouldn't go to war to defend my country, being a policeman would be out of the question, giving my money away instead of buying beer would be silly, and on and on. The world is all about me. because the only reward is the one I get for myself right now.

Certainly martyrdom can be a good and holy thing but honestly, there's not much chance of that happening in Florida, the US, North America, or most places in the world if you're not preaching to a group of Muslims. I don't expect it. But I believe God has given us other things to do. Love, when I really want to hate. Listen, when I want to hang up. Be generous, when I want to be selfish. Each of those, and many more, are tiny martyrdoms done out of a love for God. I want to be with God, because I love Him, that will be the greatest possible reward I could ever have.

So the only thing that makes you behave is the fear of punishment in an afterlife.

Your more morally bankrupt than your thug of a god.

LOL i wouldn't call most of the dark ages which were ruled
by religions helpful, nah i would say they held us back from
advancement for a very long time, and guess what when
we finally managed to get them to stop murdering scientists
and atheists, the world got better! wow big shock there.

Religion teaches you to throw away your responsibility and
ask something that doesn't exist to forgive you for something
when in all reality the proper thing to do is take responsibility
for your actions and try to correct the harm, not ask someone
else to do it for you.

I really don't understand why a belief system that cannot be proven
true and touts obedience even at the cost of murdering your
own children is seen as a good thing ever, slavery and the
murder of children are not moral, yet religion says they are if
their leader (god) tells you to do it, where is the morality???

Religion pretends to have the moral high ground, i refuse to see
things that way because until they acknowledge that they
teach perverse morality and claim it as good then they will
never be in a position, in my eyes, to dictate morality to anyone.

Religions breeds about as much social stability as you will find
in wonderful places like Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, Iran, Israel,
Mexico, Honduras, and about a hundred other small to large countries
that are majority religious. the world has been there and done that
with religion and now its rightly moving away from an immoral
and violent set of teachings that have destroyed more than they have
ever helped.

reply to post by Wertdagf

Your more morally bankrupt than your thug of a god.

Lol,

reply to post by Wertdagf

Dear Wertdagf,

In one sense you are completely correct. I am infinitely more morally bankrupt than my God.

Of course, I'd be curious to know where you got the standard that you apply to God to condemn Him as bad? Where did you get your idea of "good?" Are you creating your own rules of good and bad? If so, then everyone else can too, and the result is that there is no good or bad, just opinions.

Or did you get your idea of good and bad from some absolute source, so solid that you can apply it to everyone? I would maintain that your absolute source for your ideas of good and bad could very easily be God.

So the only thing that makes you behave is the fear of punishment in an afterlife.

And I thought I made it clear, that I choose to behave because I love God. Just as many men choose not to cheat because they love their wives. It's not fear of punishment, but love that should drive us. I don't volunteer to avoid Hell, I volunteer to be just a little like Christ in His service to others. I love Him and His children on earth. But I'm human and don't do it anywhere near perfectly. I'm a sinner looking for forgiveness for my faults. Sure, nobody in their right mind wants to go to Hell, or see anyone else there, but most of all I don't want to offend the One I love.

With respect,
Charles1952

P.s. Although if you do really see God as a thug, which I doubt, you'd better not mess with Him, or He'll bust a cap in yo' ass. (Do they still say that?)

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reply to post by charles1952

P.s. Although if you do really see God as a thug, which I doubt, you'd better not mess with Him, or He'll bust a cap in yo' ass. (Do they still say that?)

reply to post by Wertdagf

Would you be so kind as to point out where I lied? I'd be happy to correct it if I wrote something that I don't believe. Maybe my fingers slipped.

Also, I don't want to suffer from any mental illness untreated, so if you would point out the insane portions of my post, I'll head on over to a therapist to begin treatment.

Originally posted by charles1952
Nothing to me would be more tragic, more horrifying, than to hear God say to me, "You don't love Me? You don't want to be with me? Fine, you never shall be." May God preserve us from that.

With respect,
Charles1952

I don't know man. That quote above sure sounds like Fear rather than Love.

In fact when you say you act a certain way because you Love God but then give the statement above as part of your reasoning then what you're saying is that you are choosing to Love God out of Fear of what He'll do if you don't Love Him.

That's just my take on it anyway. Maybe it's not that simple but when you word it like that, that's what it sounds like to some of us reading it.

reply to post by mOjOm


I have debated Chareles on many occasions and he is not the fire and brimstone type. He is also very reasonable and can/has seen and acknowledges the other point of view when it makes sense. I respect his opinions and try to see things from his side although I can be pigheaded at times.

When he says he is a better person out of love for god I believe him. My father I think was a better person out of love for family/friends/country. I think the human condition is bettered when it’s from love not fear.

I speak out against religion when I see the motivation being fear/anger/hate but certainly that isn’t excusive to religions. He said the piece about bust a cap in humor I am sure that sometimes doesn’t translate well in text but I guess I see it because I am used to talking with him.

reply to post by mOjOm

Dear m0j0m,

Very solid post, thank you. I was worried about how that would come out. Mind if I stick with the example of the husband and wife for a minute?

Let's say that I was married to a woman who knew my thoughts and my heart, better than I did myself. (From the guys I've talked to, that's not too much of a stretch.) I could say to myself, I really love my wife, but not notice or recognize that every day I did little mean things that hurt her. Maybe I would comment about her weight or getting old. Maybe I'd pry into her affairs out of jealousy.

Whatever it was, I could justify it to myself in some way. Maybe I'd think it was just a joke, or just a little thing, or reasonable caution, or whatever excuse came to mind. Then, one day, she'd get up and say, "I've had enough of all this petty sniping day after day. It's clear you don't care about me and I've had it."

I'd be crushed. Then I'd get mad. "Women, there all a bunch of $%$^#@. I never did anything wrong. I was a good husband, she had no reason to leave."

What I'm afraid of is rationalizing my sins, trying to excuse them, not realizing the damage they're doing to others and to me. I'm asking God to show me how I might be offending Him, because I don't want to. In the same way, if I was that husband, I'd want my wife to tell me that fat jokes hurt and I'd want to stop them. One might slip out every now and then, but I'd hope she'd forgive me and give me another chance. Not because I don't want her to leave, although I don't, but because I love her so much that I don't want to hurt her.

That may not make sense, but if it doesn't let me know, and maybe I can fix it.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by Grimpachi

Dear Grimpachi,

I can't thank you enough. Yes love is the motivator that comes from God and leads to goodness. We've all tried hate at one time or another in our lives. I've learned that it is the wrong way to go. In some cases, hatred is insanity. (To return to the headline of the thread.)

As far as I can remember, "Busting a cap in yo' ass" translates to shooting you, usually fatally. If he really believed that God is a merciless enemy, the only sane policy would be to get on His good side.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Grimpachi
reply to post by mOjOm

 

I have debated Chareles on many occasions and he is not the fire and brimstone type. He is also very reasonable and can/has seen and acknowledges the other point of view when it makes sense. I respect his opinions and try to see things from his side although I can be pigheaded at times.

When he says he is a better person out of love for god I believe him. My father I think was a better person out of love for family/friends/country. I think the human condition is bettered when it’s from love not fear.

Ok. I'm not trying to attack his character or make any general statement about his interaction in the world. I was just pointing out that his reasoning behind his Love for God sounded like it was rooted to some degree in fear rather than love. I used his own words to point out what I was talking about. I didn't do this in an attempt to show his claim as false. Just showing that using that statement in that way won't work. You can't claim Love over Fear and then use an example of your Fear leading you to Loving. (hopefully that made sense???)

I speak out against religion when I see the motivation being fear/anger/hate but certainly that isn’t excusive to religions. He said the piece about bust a cap in humor I am sure that sometimes doesn’t translate well in text but I guess I see it because I am used to talking with him.

I didn't say anything about his "bust a cap" humor so I'm not sure what this has to do with my post.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


From Wikipedia's article:

Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society from London's Birkbeck College, expressed concern that the study failed to take into account a complex range of social, economic and historical factors, each of which has been shown to interact with religion and IQ in different ways.

With such variables left out, how can this study even be taken seriously? It't akin to trying to engineer a new rocket system for NASA but ignoring stress factors for the load of the rocket itself. (Not a rocket scientist, so not sure how to adequately phrase it.)

Now, on topic regarding atheists and their mental state...

We all take our own paths in life which lead us to who we are today. We're constantly evolving and changing our opinions on new information learned. Some may have been religious who learned new information which made them believe otherwise. I don't think that makes them mentally ill.

I'm really tired and it's hard for me to formulate myself the way I'd like, so instead I urge people to view a great video by Camper Killer which isn't only funny, but on topic.

I can't seem to embed the video correctly so I'm including the link: www.youtube.com...

reply to post by mOjOm


Sorry I either misinterpreted or read some posts together with another ATM I am watching a debate between Richard Dawkins and William Lane Craig which has diverted my thoughts while replying.

Again apologies if I lumped you in.

reply to post by charles1952


Ya, that was still kinda confusing but don't fret about it, I'm not. Also, I'm not trying to say that you are lying about your Love for God. For me to make the claim that I know how you feel better than you would be insane. They are your feelings, not mine, so I make no claim to them. Personally, the way I look at it, as long as you're full of love, I don't really care what your inspiration or source is anyway.

I was just kinda pointing out that you should be careful in making certain statements when trying to prove a point. You obviously had already seen your mistake without me even pointing it out.

I will say however, that to me, I honestly don't find anything wrong with what you said as far as it being Truthful in a general sense. I would bet that there are many many "God Loving" people around who do in fact represent what you had given as an example. They may not even realize it themselves because having to admit that the God of which you have an unquestioned Love for is the same God you also Fear more than anything should he not be pleased with you, is most likely something you wouldn't want to ponder upon. You know what I'm saying??

IQ and mental health are 2 different things all together, so debating on the IQ of atheist vs believers isn't what this study was aiming for in the first place.

I know one thing that makes us stupid : Fear.

The fear of death, the fear of god's judgement, the fear of not fitting in, the fear of nothingness...all of which influence if we follow the path of believing or not believing.

Anyway, it all comes down to the individual. There are smart and stupid atheist and believers.

reply to post by Grimpachi


That's kinda funny because I also happen to be watching that same debate. We seem to be following the same threads at the moment....

reply to post by mOjOm

Dear m0j0m,

No problem, I'm grateful for the lesson. I really did put it in a confusing way and I'll watch myself in the future.

I would bet that there are many many "God Loving" people around who do in fact represent what you had given as an example. They may not even realize it themselves because having to admit that the God of which you have an unquestioned Love for is the same God you also Fear more than anything should he not be pleased with you, is most likely something you would want to ponder upon. You know what I'm saying??

Yep, I do think I know what you're saying, and I agree. There is one problem for me, and it's one I don't know how to avoid. How to believe in a God that has made possible an eternity of perfect happiness, and at the same time believe that God will not allow any punishment worth thinking about to those who reject Him. I just can't manage it.

But, as you suggest, it is woth pondering. Thanks.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by mOjOm


Haha yeah. I figured I may grasp some great new concept if I watched the debate considering the names but to be honest I have read it all before on here. Man 1:45 video it helped that I understand Spanish but I am a little disappointed at the conclusion anyway I am going to sleep now.