"Besides, who wants ANOTHER arms race? Lost count of how many we've had now in the past century, and they always end up with somebody crying....."

thats exactly what i was trying to say

exactly

why try and create another superpower just to try and balence the U.S.?

especially when you consider the U.S. is setting a timebomb in its own economy and probably wont be able to be a superpower much longer.

why would european nations give up there own soveringty to balence the "U.S."

Originally posted by TheRepublic
why try and create another superpower just to try and balence the U.S.?

- Sorry but we aren't.
It might be hard to accept but not everything revolves around the US and it's actions.

Our arrangements regarding the EU are absolutely about our own affairs and furrthering our own interests and have nothing to do with attempting to achieve any kind of 'balance' with the USA.....otherwise the EU would never have grown beyond a particular size.

especially when you consider the U.S. is setting a timebomb in its own economy and probably wont be able to be a superpower much longer.

- Yeah well if you guys keep electing govs on the basis of their claims of making you 'safe' - irrespective of how laughably excessive your military spending already is - what do you expect?

You'll notice that Europe is not getting in to that whole absurd OTT military thing at all.

why would european nations give up there own soveringty to balence the "U.S."

- We aren't.

What we are actually doing is regaining lost sovereignty in a world where the small and medium powers have little or none of any effect.
By coming together we all gain much more actual and effective sovereignty.

This is purely in our interests and nothing to do with the USA.
It would all hold valid and true regardless of who the other power(s) were.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Well volk thats what happens to the weak, they live under the yoke of the strong.

And you wonder why they get all pissed of, rise up and try to break the yolk with homemade weapons (what you call terrorism).


Edit: Adding bits:

Ever wonderd why the Germans and the French are so keen to get the US out of NATO?

IT WOULD BE THE EU DEFENCE FORCE!!!!

[edit on 17/11/2004 by Corinthas]

Originally posted by Corinthas

Ever wonderd why the Germans and the French are so keen to get the US out of NATO?

IT WOULD BE THE EU DEFENCE FORCE!!!!

- Er, no it wouldn't.

A 'NATO' minus the USA would still have Canada as a member of NATO you know, Turkey too and Norway.....in fact there are several members of NATO not in the EU; regardless of the USA's position.

The EU is already setting up it's own "EU defence force" made up of units from the national armies already existant within the EU.

There is nothing new in this idea of an 'EU defence force'.

OK ok so the other trans-atlantic member is canada.. Norway regardless of its EU position... is still europe.

So remove US, Canada and all other non European members then we would have a EU defence force... basically my point still stands... alltough it has been propped up slightly

Originally posted by Corinthas
OK ok so the other trans-atlantic member is canada.. Norway regardless of its EU position... is still europe.

So remove US, Canada and all other non European members then we would have a EU defence force... basically my point still stands... alltough it has been propped up slightly

same with removeing every country except us canada and any non north american countries and you would have a north american defence force.
also as sminkey stated there is already talk of an independant EU defense force.
also what if it was just a EU defence force? you afraid we wouldnt support you in war?

The European Union will be a military superpower for sure. The question is �when?�.

The same question was applied when the Euro was born. Many people said �oohh what�s that, a new currency for all this different countries, lost of identity, a wrong idea, delirious, etc.�

Well, now, 5 years after, the Euro is winning against the dollar in the economic war and Europe is an economic superpower, and a true rival for the American economy.

As Spanish, I don�t feel that my identity is being lost. Absolutely not. There are in my opinion a misperception among many Americans and also many Europeans about the question related to the national European identities.

We are not loosing anything but winning. I have not lost even a little bit of my Spanish identity. But I have won a little bit of German, French, Italian, Greek, Dutch, Portuguese, Irish, Brit, etc. identity.

I don�t feel myself less Spanish. I feel myself as Spanish as ever, but, apart from this, I feel myself also European. Thus, for me, the Europeans are not loosing identity, but winning identity.

Old rancor between the European countries?? Ok, ok. If there is some Frenchie reading my words: Don�t worry man, I pardon you for Napoleon.
Some Brit? Right man, lets forgive Nelson and Drake.
Some Dutch? Right man, sure, you had the right to gain your freedom for the Spanish dominance.

Now lets make business together and lets put the USA out of the race.


I don�t mean to offend. But for me, the EU must be orientated to be the rival (not the enemy) of the USA.

Don Quixote saw giants instead of the windmills that actually were there. The USA, looking at the EU, is seeing a windmill instead of the giant that actually is born here.

Larger integration in the EU can only be good, United we are stronger and can benifit each other. A more diverse armed forces can trade skills and techiques, making them more efficient in the field.

Our Military strength can but grow. The Dollar is down and out, but somehow the Pound is hanging on, and, well, why not keep it until the Euro is stronger? The pound is cool.

Yeah, we will be a military superpower soon. About time too, we've been faffing around for God knows how long on this front. Also, we now have a load of Eastern Bloc tech mixed with our shiny new stuff. So, we can combine into a Large, Diverse, Tech-Savvy military. And that means our newest developed weapons can beneifit from more input.

And Hell, let's replace the SA-80 guys!

Sure Teh_Gerbil. The pound may be cool. And the Brits are in their right to keep with the pound as long as they want. But the longer the Brits wait to adopt the euro, the more difficult for them will be to meet the requirements and the later will be the benefits for the whole EU, and this is something that the Brit people should take into account.

But 1 Euro = 1,3385 dollars. This is a reality.

When I pay my beers in the pub, I am very used to the curious Euro coin. For one side, all of them look the same. But if you turn the coin you can see a da Vinci�s draw, the Liberte Egalite Fraternite, a nice eagle, the face of the queen Beatrix, depending on whether the coin was made in Italy, France, Germany, the Netherlands or whatever the country. I miss the face of the Brit Queen in some Euro. But that is your decision.

Don�t worry for the Eastern countries. They are going to learn quickly, for sure. They may be an economic drag for the EU at the beginig, but they have a lot to give to the EU. I bet in 10-15 years we will look at the decision of accepting the eastern block in the EU as a great decision.

Yeah, I want the Euro but I just feel sad at loosing the Pound that has been so strong.

Im all for it if it stop ours Uber-Capitalist governemnt ripping us off with our Taxes, when we see directly the difference without the exchange rate. THEN the *tries not to swear... unnng!* theiving nasty men will have to stop and we'll get a better Britain. How the HELL do you Europeans cope when you come here filling up your car/buying a drink? One thing I will really struggle with though is if we convert to Metric all the way. Sure, it'll solve problems, but I have been taught in MPH, Pints of Beer. But I use CM and although our car does MPG, Its filled up in Litres. WTF? Serious, the mind boggles over here!

Onwards to the EU, lets Fix the damned UK. And WTF is with it being either UK or GB? What be'th the difference? Why is one or the other used?

God, we don't make up our mind on ANYTHING here.

Well, I understand your suffering� that is not easy�

But I would add just one more question: Why the hell you guys use to drive the left side???

Why the hell do you guys drive on the right side damnit! Awkward people! Make my dream '77 Trans Am have the wheel on the wrong side. Silly yanks.

I dunno, it has always confused me why us and few others drive down the left, yet you guys are on the right! Which nation had the first left/right system would be interesting to see.

Aus is on the left, is it not? Yet their cars are cheaper. Gagh. Stupid UK mark-up of everything.

Originally posted by Pelayo
Well, I understand your suffering� that is not easy�

But I would add just one more question: Why the hell you guys use to drive the left side???

Cause everything here is done on the left , in my idea its from the military.
You know every order on the left foot kinda stuff?

I thought it was all about two armed men (as most might have been) approaching each other being able to offer their 'sword hand' in friendship/peace (the handshake).......and also having a quickly available and free sword-hand to start with - so with most being right-handed that would make passing each other to each others' right the most natural.

But then Napoleon changed things as his troop columns clashed with each other when they passed due to the way they slung their riflers/muskets as they marched and so he order they pass each other to each other's left.

Which now comes to mean Europe drives on the right and the UK undefeated by Napoleon still drives on the left.

One source I saw simply said that Henry Ford decided himself which way the US was to do it by making his cars a particular way only!


[edit on 29-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Onwards to the EU, lets Fix the damned UK. And WTF is with it being either UK or GB? What be'th the difference? Why is one or the other used?

Because we are: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

That is the full and official name of our country.... See my Avatar

I rode that it comes from the time of the cars pulled by horses.

Since the streets in the Brit cities were very narrow and the majority of the drivers were right handed, when the drivers lashed the horses with the whip there was a risk for the bystanders and also was difficult avoid the different obstacles in the right side of the street. So the Brits started to drive by the left side, in this way the whip fly towards the horses in the middle of the street without risk for the bystanders.

Since the majority of the people is right handed it is easier to drive by the right side with the driver sat in the left side of the car, because to keep fixed the wheel is easier than to change marches moving the stick, so we keep fixed the wheel with the left hand while we change marches with the right hand.

Wow... ALOT of theories indeed. And we'll probably never find out which is correct. Might be a combination of a good few of them. I think the majority of coutries worldwide are on the right though, making us awkward. Makes no sense, we conquered most of the world so they should follow our example. Maybe they rebelled. Who can blame them?