reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
What -real world- evidence shows that Jesus saved us from our sins and that his death was necessary? As far as I can tell, he hasn't saved us from
anything, he's only given us an excuse to sin even more.
The real changed lives of countless millions/billions of souls who have, over the past two thousand years, placed their trust (faith) in the Deity who
came into a world that knew 'greatness' as subjecting millions to tyranny (Alexander the Great, et al) and instead preached the forgiveness of sin
by an action so simple as trust in Him & the fair, charitable treatment of others - and asked only that we should go and do likewise. As in, forgive
those who wrong us, and seek to lead better lives that do not inflict harm, and in fact bring positive benefit to others wherever possible. People
really can change through a spiritual relationship with the infinite Lord; there are many, many, many testimonies about miraculous changed lives -
people literally saved from death by some transformative power that was unleashed when they placed simple trust in Jesus.
Theologically, Jesus' spiritual death* saves us from spiritual death, if we ask Him into our heart when self-knowledge of our lost condition is held
in our awareness (usually through a combination of circumstance, and an awareness of / belief in / faith in His station as Lord of the Cosmos, the One
who is able to fulfil the promise of salvation).
* (Jesus' spiritual death occurred when the Father 'turned away' from the dying Jesus, for a moment, separating Him from any connection with His
and our Father in Heaven - that connection being the primary factor that brings us our general sense of wellbeing & conscience, our spiritual 'life'
- without which, we are lost)
The resurrection and ascension of Jesus' physical form (as testified by 500+ persons shortly after the time of His crucifixion) provides the
assurance of the same, spiritually, for us. We go through the dark night of the soul, and we come out of it reborn, revitalised, and ready to serve
others instead of ourselves (though we cannot do so perfectly, due to living in a 'fallen' world, mysteriously & ineffably broken by
that occurred in the way-back mists of time, represented symbolically in the Garden of Eden story).
I am one of the countless millions of believers who has placed trust in Christ, and found that in supernatural ways my own life has changed
dramatically (though I'm nowhere near perfect - I think we all know enough to know that we are all, in this broken place, imperfect to some extent).
I am NOT one of those who claim that God has no place in Heaven for those people whose potential for meeting with Christ during their earthly
lifetimes is ruined by their observations of those who bring His good name into disrepute. As in, those being turned off Christianity by believers
who behave in a manner that is offensive, discriminatory, persecutory etc.
God is infinite in wisdom, and in mercy - His compassion knows no limits. All are welcome.
*** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Some additional thoughts not in response to the above quoted member, but in response to some others in this thread:
A true believer in Christ - who has placed simple trust in Him, and who attempts to keep to His teachings - would never subject others to wilful
persecution. People are so quick to latch onto the efforts of the 'bastardised church' as another ATS'er succinctly put it, and in so doing lay
claim that all Christians are heartless torturers.
Why do you think Jesus stated to the Teachers of the Law that the prostitutes were nearer to Heaven than they, the supposedly righteous religious
leaders were? Because He knows the heart of Man - and men who climb into religion for the sake of the power they can perversely accrue as a
'religious teacher' existed then, and will always exist, until this tired old world is wrapped up.
Jesus knew that His teachings would be manipulated by some - but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
NB - The establishment of Israel was a definite objective which required that some battles be fought; however, the Jews were not bloodthirsty
conquistadors - they established their nation and the borders stayed roughly the same - they also happened to chronicle some of the battles that were
fought to maintain the borders; even those they lost, which adds plausibility to the historical validity of the documents.
EnochWasRight has already pointed out that the Jews were imperfect, and hence corrupted their own religion. I make mention of the same by saying that
certain persons who claim to be Christian have corrupted the Way of Christ - which was originally about family & fellowship with others, under the
awesome banner of a relationship with the Divine.