A return to the Air Force for the sleek Blackbird?

Originally posted by ownbestenemy

Originally posted by crazyewok
Wouldnt its stealth abilitys though just be well out of date? I mean this is 1964 tec

The U-2 was and never is considered a "stealth" plane. It is a spy plane. It isn't designed to avoid or decieve radar; it is designed to fly high and fly quick through enemy airspace.

Sorry, but crazyewok was discussing the Blackbird here, which debuted in 1964.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
A little while later the controller says "Here he comes." The observer hears *BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP* from the screen, and they were across it that fast.

While I will not contest the speeds that the SR-71 achieved, the above is.....editorialized. Radar screens, may they be ARTS2/3 A or STARS (or even DBRITE) do not execute a "blip" sound. There is no "blip" sound. That is a product of the movies.

Either way, I am sure as centers across the United States marveled at the site of an object moving across their sector at the speeds the SR-71 was achieving.

reply to post by schuyler


Sorry

reply to post by ownbestenemy


Of course it was. But that doesn't make it any less funny all the same.

ownbestenemy

Originally posted by Zaphod58
A little while later the controller says "Here he comes." The observer hears *BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP* from the screen, and they were across it that fast.

While I will not contest the speeds that the SR-71 achieved, the above is.....editorialized. Radar screens, may they be ARTS2/3 A or STARS (or even DBRITE) do not execute a "blip" sound. There is no "blip" sound. That is a product of the movies.

Either way, I am sure as centers across the United States marveled at the site of an object moving across their sector at the speeds the SR-71 was achieving.

Another story I heard or read somewhere (can't remember where) was the story of an F-15 Eagle driver showing off for a commercial airliner. The airliner asked control what their ground speed was, and control replied 450 or something like that. Then the F-15 asked the same question, and the controller replied 710. An SR-71 was in the area at the same time and asked the same question. The controller replied 2250. He said the F-15 didn't make another sound the whole time!

reply to post by boomer135


I love that one. The version I heard starts with like a Cessna, then a Twin Beech, then an F-18 smugly asks, then the SR-71 (Brian Schul relates it in one of his books) asks, and it gets really quiet after that. It makes me laugh every time I read it.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by boomer135

 

I love that one. The version I heard starts with like a Cessna, then a Twin Beech, then an F-18 smugly asks, then the SR-71 (Brian Schul relates it in one of his books) asks, and it gets really quiet after that. It makes me laugh every time I read it.

Yeah, I heard that one, too. Thanks, Zaphod for the book reference. New editions are still available, but yikes on the price. Here: galleryonepublishing.com...

reply to post by ownbestenemy

While I will not contest the speeds that the SR-71 achieved, the above is.....editorialized. Radar screens, may they be ARTS2/3 A or STARS (or even DBRITE) do not execute a "blip" sound. There is no "blip" sound. That is a product of the movies. Either way, I am sure as centers across the United States marveled at the site of an object moving across their sector at the speeds the SR-71 was achieving.

I have to agree with you here. I have print out from an ATC screen and it looks like they are covering at least a 200nm radius. So we're talking 230 statute miles. Take the top speed at 2200mph. Call it 2300mph to make the math easier. So you have 230/2300 which means 0.1hr to cross the screen. Actually twice that since 200mn is the radius. So it would be on the screen for up to 12 minutes. So not only would there not be a sound, but they would have plenty of time to track it.

reply to post by Zaphod58

Stealth development has moved into multifrequency radar, infrared, microwave, and beyond. It has moved so far beyond where it was when the F-117 came into existence that it's like the SR-71 to the Wright Flyer. And contrary to what others may say, visual stealth is being developed and worked on. People a lot smarter think that there is an advantage to it, and it will play a role in the future.

You are confusing technologies here. The multifrequency radar as you state it is the low probability of intercept radar on the plane itself. That is so it is not detection on a radar warning receiver. Radar has been microwave ever since the invention of the magnetron.

I stand by my statements on visual stealth since they are based on science, but feel free to carefully document any visual stealth currently implemented.

reply to post by gariac


Not according to the article I read. He distinctly said "multifrequency" when talking about radar stealth, as well as IR, microwave, and others.

Regardless, a number of organizations are working on it, so someone seems to think it's a good idea.

reply to post by schuyler


Oh but they're so worth it, just for the pictures he took. My brother bought them both when they first came out, and were cheaper, so I got to read them both. He had some funny stuff to say.

He was talking about day 4 I think it was of the interview, which was when they first flew the simulator. The sim operator would start talking them up, about how they were the best pilot he had ever seen, etc. Then he says "I bet you can fly with the yaw dampers off. Let's try it!" So the pilot would agree, at which point the sim instantly slams to full up and freezes, with a loud *BANG*. The sim operator freaks, talking about how they just broke the multi-million dollar simulator, and they were both dead men, etc.

Turns out, the entire thing was a stress test and part of the interview.

Originally posted by crazyewok
reply to post by schuyler

 

Sure ahead of its time in the 1960's

But to think what could be made now? I mean its been 50 years

It (A12) was actually on the drawing board in the 50's, and I still think
daddy Kelly Johnson was one of them. Amazing bird, after the slight
balance / instability issues were fixed up to the SR incarnation.
If I need a cheap rush, I still plug the A12 into my MSFS 8 (dinosoar no typo)
and pour the coals to it slow from FL350. It's like a box kite with a Thiokol
booster for leafing, but boyo it's great after you get up there.

reply to post by schuyler


SR-71 blackbirds record breaking air speed. 3529.6km/hr.(2193.2mph) Or mach 2.9 roughly

Most modern SAM, as well as A2A travel much faster than this. It is much easier to fly a rocket well beyond the speed of sound, than it is a fixed wing aircraft.

9M82 8690.46kph, (5,400 mph). Or mach 7.

Sorry, but the blackbird is not immune by speed alone, if it's detected and a missile is launched, it will not succeed in defeating that threat with it's measly mach 3(rounded)

reply to post by Hijinx


Just because they can fly faster doesn't mean they can intercept the blackbird. You also have height aswell and missiles aren't very good at maneuvering at 80,000 feet.

What we are discussing is a dead aircraft however way you look at it......
I am a believer in the rumoured wedgie hanging off a KC 135 over the North Sea, a few years back....
Then theres the sausage contrail............and strange doings in California skies....
The Unca Sams got hardware even some top brass doesn't know about......

reply to post by Hijinx


Top speed of the SR-71 was closer to Mach 3.4. That's the fastest I heard of one flying. But regardless, you have to take a lot of factors into account, such as the altitude the Blackbird is flying, the distance it was detected, etc. Your missile may do Mach 7 but it has to accelerate, and then climb to the 80,000 feet the Blackbird is flying at. All the while the Blackbird is screaming along eating miles up, so you're going to end up in a chase situation. A missile in a chase situation is going to miss. It can't carry much fuel so you have a very limited engagement window. A Blackbird that's already at Mach 3+ already has an enormous advantage over a missile.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by gariac

 

Not according to the article I read. He distinctly said "multifrequency" when talking about radar stealth, as well as IR, microwave, and others.
.

"Multi-frequency" stealth when discussing radar is probably referring to the fact that low-frequency radiowaves act a bit differently than the higher frequencies of search, track and targeting phase of most radars.
One of the interesting things is that larger aircraft actually defeat low-frequency returns more effectively which at first glance seems counter-intuitive. Of course, at lower frequencies, say targeting, the smaller surfaces are obvious an advantage. Which results in some interesting trade-offs when discussing LO and different wave-lengths.


As far as the F-22 and IR is concerned, countermeasures aren't going to make a difference at knife-fight distances. There are some odd things that happen at different wavelengths when it comes to IR attenuation through the atmosphere. So if you can manipulate some portion of your emissions to those wavelengths which attenuate quickly, you're ahead of the game. But as far as filming within a mile or so from the tarmac, you'll never be able to hide from that sensor. Especially the exhaust plume at full burner. Cruising a few dozen miles away without injecting fuel straight into the cans is an entirely different matter.

reply to post by _Del_


Of course you're not going to completely dissipate your IR signature, but like you said, if you can get it to where it attenuates quickly, and is harder to detect at range, then you're way ahead in the game. Short range, you're almost on equal footing, but if I can stay out at long range, where you can't detect me on radar, or by IR, then I've got every advantage imaginable.

Originally posted by ColeYounger
The SR-71 is the 2nd coolest aircraft IMO. It's beautiful...but my favorite will always be the old Convair B-58 Hustler. While I was a young'un in the early 60s, my family was visiting relatives near Bellevue, Nebraska, who lived just west of Offutt air base...out in the burbs...not many houses around at the time. Offutt was the SAC headquarters then. My cousin and I were playing out in the back yard and a B-58 flew over, producing an end-of-the-world sonic boom. I looked up and caught a glimpse of the four engines on the delta wing as he streaked by at a fairly low altitude.
My cousin freaked out and was crying hysterically. I was pretty freaked out too. What a cool experience.

but the corvair would have made no noise when it passed, you couldn't possibly have looked up after the boom to see the plane. It would have been gone, by the time you heard it, even at mach 1.

I'll post some more thoughts about this thread in a little bit after I look up some stuff. But here's a question/thought that crossed my mind. The RQ-4 Global Hawk back in 2011 was picked to replace the U-2's due to cost, and other stuff. Then, the pentagon decided that the Global Hawks cost too much money and decided to upgrade the exisiting U-2's to last until 2040 or longer. Well Northrop decided that this wasn't cool, and launched a campaign of lobbying to get congress to make the pentagon buy the block 30 global hawks. These aircraft were horrible as seen in this excerpt below:

Meanwhile, rigorous testing from October 2010 through January 2011 led the Pentagon's chief weapons tester to conclude that the Block 30 was unreliable. The Block 30's "mission-critical air vehicle components fail at high rates, resulting in poor takeoff reliability, high air abort rates, low mission capable rates, an excessive demand for critical spare parts and a high demand for maintenance support," J. Michael Gilmore said in a May 2011 report. When flying at a near-continuous pace, the Block 30 provided less than half the required 55 percent "Effective Time On Station" coverage -- the amount of time loitering over a target to gather intelligence -- over a 30-day period, Gilmore said. Its sensor to identify radar and communications signals "does not consistently deliver actionable signal intelligence end-products to operational users due to technical performance deficiencies" and other reasons, he said. As a result, Gilmore added, the Block 30 "is not operationally effective for conducting near-continuous, persistent ISR [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance operations]."

So the Global Hawk Block 30 aircraft provided less than half of 55 percent effective time on station coverage. I'm sorry but when an aircraft is only available for 25 percent of its mission, it needs to be scrapped. But the best has yet to come and leads me to believe that if there is a super secret spy plane out there, it's probably NG's.

The RQ-4 back in 2001 was originally supposed to cost 88 million dollars per aircraft. Similarly to the F-22, the F-35, and the B-2 (among others), the cost skyrocketed to a staggering 223 million dollars per aircraft in 2011! PER AIRCRAFT!!!. Mind you this is a drone that has no stealth technology and has an RCS the size of a bus. Yes it can loiter for over 24 hours at a high altitude (25 percent of the time), but what's the point when we have china and russia with capabilities to just mozy on up to altitude and take it out with guns while the drone is helpless? Why did a drone aircraft in the first place cost so much damn money? And why did the cost skyrocket over 150 percent in ten years?

So the answer is out there somewhere. I can see absolutely no reason at all that a drone could cost a quarter billion dollars per copy, when you can get an F-22 for 138 million (minus r&d of course), or an F-35 for less than the drone. So perhaps the answer we are looking for has to do with this enormous cost of the RQ-4. Perhaps they are using that extra money to either build, create, or test the new spy plane, or cost to keep an active, small squadron of spy planes flying. We have people all around the country that disect the black budget as much as they can and map out when a new weapons system is being developed. This could be another way of funneling money into the spy program without raising too much suspecion.

RQ-4