A return to the Air Force for the sleek Blackbird?

Originally posted by schuyler
, some of the stuff you "see" isn't really there.

I have always thought that some of the less nutz and bolts UFO sighted have been something diffrent to aircraft. Man made but diffrent. Optical illusion, holograms, decoys obviously all have defence uses and seeing as I could rig something up in my back yard for a few hundred quid that could have my neigbourhood running about Im sure the US (And it seems UK) Defence industry that has access to billions have some amazing stuff.

reply to post by crazyewok


There are at least six black projects that I know of (no details), both manned and possibly unmanned that have been in the works for many years. At least two are possibly operational and in service now, with several others possibly going to see the light eventually (10 or so years potentially).

I know we've drifted off the SR-71. There's one on display at the Boeing Flight Museum in Seattle. The thing that first struck me was that it is HUGE! Really! It's about twice the length of an F/A 18 at just over 100 feet, with a 55 foot wingspan, whereas an F/A-18 is about 40 feet. I grew up in the fifties. I took one look at the thing and said, "That's a rocket ship!"

These things were rated, i.e.: the public (cough) speed (cough), at Mach 3.3, which is something like 2300mph or so, but their range was less than 3,000 miles, so basically they could stay aloft for an hour before they had to find a tanker fast.

One story was when one was snooping over Libya when Ghadafi threw up a few SAMs against it. Apparently the pilot wasn't as worried as his RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) who said something like,

"Don't you think we'd better step on the gas here pretty quick?" They did and wound up overshooting their rendezvous with their tanker over Gibraltar and were half way across the Atlantic before they could get themselves turned around. I've been in a speed boat and over shot my turn before, but doing it in a Blackbird must have been awesome.

reply to post by schuyler


Sure ahead of its time in the 1960's

But to think what could be made now? I mean its been 50 years

reply to post by schuyler


The top speed released as public is pretty close to the real top speed. It couldn't go much faster than that due to the heating at that speed. The windscreen and some of the other softer components couldn't handle the friction much beyond that. Other than where they flew, and when they flew there, there's not a lot secret anymore about the Blackbirds.

The pilot you were talking about is Brian Schul. He wrote Sled Driver and The Untouchables about flying the Blackbird. Amazing books, beautiful pictures, expensive as hell. Well worth the cost though.

Are you sure it was a Blackbird and not an A-12? Several of them on display (like the one at NASA in Huntsville) are A-12s, usually mislabled as SR-71s. If you don't know what you're looking for it's hard to tell them apart.

I was....8 the time I got to see one. They diverted in to Pease, due to a navigation system problem. We launched a tanker to meet up with them and guide them in to the base (no JP-7, couldn't refuel them). My father took me down to the hangar they had it in, and got the guard to let me cross the ropes and go right up to it and walk around it.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by schuyler

 

Are you sure it was a Blackbird and not an A-12? Several of them on display (like the one at NASA in Huntsville) are A-12s, usually mislabled as SR-71s. If you don't know what you're looking for it's hard to tell them apart.

Kinda......

This M-21 is a unique variant of the A-12, the earliest Blackbird type. Built for a CIA program code-named "Tagboard," the M-21 carried unpiloted vehicles for intelligence gathering. These drones were intended for launch from the M-21 "mother ship" for flights over hostile territories. Design features of the M-21 include the second seat for the Launch Control Officer and the launch pylon on which the drone is mounted.
The Museum's M-21 was built in 1963, and is the sole surviving example of its type.

Source

They've also got one of the drones.

reply to post by Zaphod58


Yup. The funny thing is, the individual bits and pieces about these technologies aren't classified. The science behind them is usually done and published in peer-reviewed journals. It is when you combine them together correctly for a "complete package" that the whole thing turns into a black project.

Originally posted by crazyewok
I have always thought that some of the less nutz and bolts UFO sighted have been something diffrent to aircraft. Man made but diffrent. Optical illusion, holograms, decoys obviously all have defence uses and seeing as I could rig something up in my back yard for a few hundred quid that could have my neigbourhood running about Im sure the US (And it seems UK) Defence industry that has access to billions have some amazing stuff.

I believe that holography is a VERY interesting subject, both technically and philosophically. I suspect a whole lot of secrets of the universe are buried in this idea and that it has seen quite a few practical applications beyond security seals for software packages.

reply to post by schuyler


Yeah, that program was a bit of a disaster. There were several successful launches from an M-21, but under carefully controlled conditions they might not be able to do under fire. One of the M-21 attempts ended in a crash of the mothership, and the death of one of the crew members. They even have it on video. This was the last launch attempt and led to the cancellation of the program.

It was a Mach 3 launch attempt, and upon separation of the two aircraft the D-21 lifted off the back of the M-21 then slammed back down into it, pitching the M-21 nose up, which caused it to break apart just behind the cockpit. Both pilots stayed with the aircraft for a short time before ejecting. They both survived the ejection, and landed in the Pacific, where Ray Torrick, the LCO, opened his helmet, allowing it to fill with water drowning him.

www.wvi.com...

Originally posted by schuyler
These things were rated, i.e.: the public (cough) speed (cough), at Mach 3.3, which is something like 2300mph or so, ...

The geometry and location of the intakes makes a speed much higher than that unfeasible.

I've never seen the Blackbird in person, but as a little kid I heard it's sonic boom. This must have been in the very late 80's to mid 90's. It was on the local news that an SR-71 was in the area and not to be alarmed by the loud noises.

Unfortunately, it's domestic recon mission was unsuccessful. I'm sure Zaph knows what I'm talking about!

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by mbkennel

 

The newer aircraft have IR suppression systems it's believed. So if you can confuse the optical system into thinking that the aircraft isn't there, and you have an IR suppression system that keeps it from locking on at any kind of range, then you don't need to use flares as often as in the past.

This is why I love this game. It's better than chess with the move and countermove.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by MystikMushroom


The best SR-71 story I heard was when they did their record run from London to LA. The FAA put observers in radar centers across the country to verify the flight path.

The Phoenix observer was watching the screen, when one of the controllers said "This is a 747." The screen went *blip*......................*blip* and the radar return barely moved on the screen.

A little while later the controller says "Here he comes." The observer hears *BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP* from the screen, and they were across it that fast.

Total flight time from RAF Mildenhall to LAX was 3:37:49, an average of 1435 mph. That included 53 minutes of subsonic flight after take off, refueling from three tankers off England, and two more near Newfoundland, plus deceleration near the mountains of California.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by mbkennel

 

The newer aircraft have IR suppression systems it's believed. So if you can confuse the optical system into thinking that the aircraft isn't there, and you have an IR suppression system that keeps it from locking on at any kind of range

"any kind of range"? I don't believe that. Lower observability sure, but unlike radar stealth, there is some minimum total emissions. Friction and combustion still make heat, you can't change the laws of physics. If you want to gain energy & altitude you have to burn.

You can try to modify it from one bright dot to a more diffuse blob.

Originally posted by mbkennel

Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by mbkennel

 

The newer aircraft have IR suppression systems it's believed. So if you can confuse the optical system into thinking that the aircraft isn't there, and you have an IR suppression system that keeps it from locking on at any kind of range

"any kind of range"? I don't believe that. Lower observability sure, but unlike radar stealth, there is some minimum total emissions. Friction and combustion still make heat, you can't change the laws of physics. If you want to gain energy & altitude you have to burn.

You can try to modify it from one bright dot to a more diffuse blob.

I took "any kind of range" to mean "any sufficiently long enough range" as opposed to "any range at all" if that makes any difference here.

Originally posted by schuyler

These things were rated, i.e.: the public (cough) speed (cough), at Mach 3.3, which is something like 2300mph or so, but their range was less than 3,000 miles, so basically they could stay aloft for an hour before they had to find a tanker fast.

One story was when one was snooping over Libya when Ghadafi threw up a few SAMs against it. Apparently the pilot wasn't as worried as his RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) who said something like,

"Don't you think we'd better step on the gas here pretty quick?" They did and wound up overshooting their rendezvous with their tanker over Gibraltar and were half way across the Atlantic before they could get themselves turned around. I've been in a speed boat and over shot my turn before, but doing it in a Blackbird must have been awesome.

That incident had Brian Shul at the helm, he pushed the Blackbird to Mach 3.4 in his haste to get out of there.
It was a leaky bugger on the ground though, although the fuel used was thought to be safe enough, as long as all you had was a box of matches. I'm inclined to think that this story is a bit bully, and that the military man is just pushing for more money to go indirectly to the black projects...and a nice bottle of Vino to boot.

The SR-71 is the 2nd coolest aircraft IMO. It's beautiful...but my favorite will always be the old Convair B-58 Hustler. While I was a young'un in the early 60s, my family was visiting relatives near Bellevue, Nebraska, who lived just west of Offutt air base...out in the burbs...not many houses around at the time. Offutt was the SAC headquarters then. My cousin and I were playing out in the back yard and a B-58 flew over, producing an end-of-the-world sonic boom. I looked up and caught a glimpse of the four engines on the delta wing as he streaked by at a fairly low altitude.
My cousin freaked out and was crying hysterically. I was pretty freaked out too. What a cool experience.

reply to post by mbkennel


The AIM-9X is believed to have a range out to 22 miles. The Navy is looking at adding an optical sensor as well as an IR seeker to increase the range as much as 60% over the current range. Of course, the odds of hitting a target at 22 miles are very slim to begin with.

An IRST system also gives the aircraft equipped with it a huge advantage, in that it can track an aircraft, and launch a missile without the other aircraft knowing it's there. An IR suppression system is going to slice the range in half, or even better, possibly allowing the aircraft with the system the chance to identify an attacker on its own sensors, or even to get away.

Yes, friction is going to play a role, but not nearly as much as you think it will. There are ways to alleviate even that heat to a degree that makes it very hard to track the aircraft. Otherwise, what's the point of stealth? All you'd have to do is point an IR camera at the sky and look for a heat source.

The F-117 used ceramics, and upward vented exhaust on top of the wing. The B-2 uses baffles and a long exhaust (as well as a rumored active system). The F-22 and F-35 have to move beyond those, as both of those don't allow for much power (I've watched the F-117 roll 8,000 feet on a 10,000 foot runway on take off). So they have to move to a different way of hiding the IR signature, or again, what's the point.

B-58 was a beautiful airplane. It lasted only ten years. And the B-52 is still flying after 60 years. My cousin was a B-52 pilot in the sixties. Now 78 and long retired he took a tour (At Boeing Air & Space) and had two things to say. 1.) They've got a lot of new antennas on there now, and 2.) They now let kids fly them.

reply to post by smurfy


A crew chief on Okinawa used the JP7 that had leaked out of the bird to put out a gasoline fire started by the V8 start cart (either a Cadillac or Oldsmobile engine, I think it was a Cadillac though). Everyone else was running for the door, he picked up a broom and swept some JP7 over the fire, while everyone crapped themselves, and put it out.

To start the engines required the use to Triethylborane (TEB) to get the temperatures high enough to ignite the fuel. That's what created the characteristic green flame on engine start.