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Death, or Death by a Thousand Cuts

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posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 03:51 PM
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This topic is one I am passionate about and I know has been touched on before, but it came up on the radio today and the fact that this new story has come out justifies bringing it up again since it shows how little progress we are making in this area.

I listened to the show hosts on this radio station debate around this topic with lawyers and doctors and callers with personal experiences. A source for the story needs to be linked because it is the catalyst to start a new conversation on this particular social issue.

There are TWO TOPICS HERE



I already know this thread will split into two directions. One conversation based on Barbara Mancini and the allegations made against her, and one on the social issues of the topic itself and what IS humane treatment of the terminally ill.


Barbara Mancini, the Philadelphia nurse who is being charged with assisting in the suicide of her 93-year-old father, is pinning her hopes on Pennsylvania's attorney general to drop felony charges that could send her to jail.

Mancini, 57, is alleged to have given her ailing father, Joseph Yourshaw, a lethal dose of morphine to hasten his death. She's charged with "recklessly endangering another person" and "aiding suicide," according to the criminal complaint, obtained by ABCNews.com. The case hinges on whether Mancini gave her father the morphine to help relieve his pain, as she claims, or to help him commit suicide.


This is pretty much the jest of it for those who are scanning this before they dive into the article itself. She has flip flopped on why exactly she gave him the morphine from giving it to him so he could end his life at his request to giving it to him because he wanted to ease his pain. My opinion is she doesn't deserve to be charged with anything and I will state that right off the bat, because I have strong feelings about the right to choose assisted suicide in a terminal situation.

As I am listening to all of this, I already have a stance on assisted suicide. I think the topic needs to be dug into and sorted out to end the suffering of those who choose to go when they please and their families who may have Power Of Attorney at this point in their illnesses and choosing that option before they are incapable of it anymore and in hospice. Or worse really, before other variables that one cannot predict come into the equation such as dementia, altzheimers (never expect me to spell that right) etc and they are not able to decide with full understanding of what they are doing.



The day before police intervened, Yourshaw had fallen. When the hospice nurse, Barbara Cattermole, came the following day to check in, he was unresponsive in bed, according to the Inquirer, and she called police. The nurse "told me that her client had taken an overdose of his morphine with the intent to commit suicide," according to the police report.

The nurse had reportedly told him that Mancini had given his father the medicine, "at his request so that he could end his own suffering." ABCNews.com called Cattermole for comment but she refused. When an ambulance arrived, Mancini allegedly told paramedics that her father was dying and did not want further treatment, according to the Inquirer.

Durkin overruled her. At the hospital, Yourshaw was revived with Narcan, an antidote for opiate overdoses, and lived for four days, according to the Inquirer. Mancini's lawyers said that his doctors gave him additional morphine for his pain. The death certificate says he died of "morphine toxicity," complicated high blood pressure and heart disease, according to the Inquirer, but an autopsy was not performed.

Crowley of Compassionate Choices said that proving that Mancini assisted in her father's death will be difficult. "Here, the kicker is, that he doesn't even die," he said. "They have to prove that he wanted to commit suicide and she aided him. But keep in mind, he didn't die and that's what's bizarre about the whole thing. He lived another four days after the family prevailed and asked them to please stop treating him against his medical wishes."


To all of the bolded, Mancini's father had a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) Order. I CANNOT for the life of me find it in an article to source, but it was on this same news program and the link to their article about it is Here and it may be possible to find a re-run of that particle segment but the Lawyer who was involved on the call confirmed that.


A hospice nurse at his home in Pottsville, Pa., reported her to police. Yourshaw reportedly was taking prescribed morphine for a variety of painful illnesses: end-stage diabetes, heart and cardiovascular disease, stroke, kidney disease and arthritis. The state must prove that Mancini intended to help her father die.

Source

This is where the title of my thread comes into play here. Yourshaw had been taking morphine for an incredibly long period of time and had developed quite a tolerance to the substance as it has a very long half-life chemically and a very quick physical dependence. THIS is the question that is REALLY bugging me and has since I read this.

What would you choose? Death the way you want or Death by a thousand cuts? That's really what it is called in the world of opiate withdrawals in recreational drug abuse rehabilitation. You can quit the opiate instantly and suffer through the incredible withdrawals or you can slowly CUT down on the medication using titration to get off of the drug making it slightly less hellish but for a much much longer amount of time. That is lovingly referred to as Death by a Thousand Cuts.

What I see when I look at this situation is Mencini did nothing wrong. Hospice did nothing wrong. Hospice workers are some of the most incredible people on the planet. There is something inherently wrong with how Hospice and long-term care facilities are run in regards to the prolonged treatment of terminal patients with morphine to 1) Ease their pain and 2) Keep them pleasant as they approach death.

Now let me ask you this, if the Dr. had ordered hospice and Mencini to keep him on morphine for such a long period of time, was that not death by a thousand cuts? Was that not assisted suicide in and of itself just over a MUCH LONGER period of time?

She allegedly gave him an overdose, yet he did not die. He did, ironically, die after they gave him morphine in the hospital 4 days later. Now somehow she is getting flack for assisting in his suicide. But WHY? His long term care plan was a long term assisted suicide if you ask me.




posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 04:03 PM
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The morality of it all is up in the air, and really comes down to personal views, despite what I personally believe on the matter,

I can answer the last part.




She allegedly gave him an overdose, yet he did not die. He did, ironically, die after they gave him morphine in the hospital 4 days later. Now somehow she is getting flack for assisting in his suicide. But WHY? His long term care plan was a long term assisted suicide if you ask me.


It was her intent to kill her father, assisted suicide or not, it would be the same for an attempted murder by gun, you shoot at someone, intent is where the law is.

I can accidentally discharge a weapon and face lesser charges, than an intentional shot that missed.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by benrl
The morality of it all is up in the air, and really comes down to personal views, despite what I personally believe on the matter,

I can answer the last part.




She allegedly gave him an overdose, yet he did not die. He did, ironically, die after they gave him morphine in the hospital 4 days later. Now somehow she is getting flack for assisting in his suicide. But WHY? His long term care plan was a long term assisted suicide if you ask me.


It was her intent to kill her father, assisted suicide or not, it would be the same for an attempted murder by gun, you shoot at someone, intent is where the law is.

I can accidentally discharge a weapon and face lesser charges, than an intentional shot that missed.


She has flip flopped on if she gave it to him as a way for him to end his life or if she gave it to him and there was some mystery overdose. Frankly it would be hard to kill someone with morphine on that high of a tolerance level anyway.

If we hypothesize that she did intend to kill him, yeah she would have murdered him if he had died then but he didn't, he died four days later. There is also this big elephant in the room that I can't get over... wasn't the long term care plan to kill him anyway? He was dying anyway. He wanted to die anyway. You could go so far as to say God was ready for him to die but I really don't want to go down that road.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 04:12 PM
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reply to post by ValentineWiggin
 


I believe in assisted suicide, I believe everyone should have the right to die if that is their wish especially when living is causing them constant pain. My question though is her flip-flopping. If she was truly assisting him in his wish for death I see nothing wrong here. If however she actually screwed up his dose and death was not really wished by him just a small relief of pain than there is a problem. People should not be tasked with caring for individuals if they do not understand what it entails, how much is too much medicine or too little etc.... I see that she is a nurse so I highly doubt this was a mistake.

However it seems that she just wished to help him end his life how he chooses to and I honestly see nothing wrong with that.

It takes an abundant amount of love for someone to help a person who means so much to them end their life. People are generally selfish and want to hold on to anything and anyone they can at all costs, even in others pain. I commend her for letting go, if in fact that is what she did.

edit on 13-8-2013 by brandiwine14 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by brandiwine14
reply to post by ValentineWiggin
 


I believe in assisted suicide, I believe everyone should have the right to die if that is their wish especially when living is causing them constant pain. My question though is her flip-flopping. If she was truly assisting him in his wish for death I see nothing wrong here. If however she actually screwed up his dose and death was not really wished by him just a small relief of pain than there is a problem. People should not be tasked with caring for individuals if they do not understand what it entails, how much is too much medicine or too little etc.... I see that she is a nurse so I highly doubt this was a mistake.

However it seems that she just wished to help him end his life how he chooses to and I honestly see nothing wrong with that.

It takes an abundant amount of love for someone to help a person who means so much to them end their life. People are generally selfish and want to hold on to anything and anyone they can at all costs, even in others pain. I commend her for letting go, if in fact that is what she did.

edit on 13-8-2013 by brandiwine14 because: (no reason given)


She was a nurse, so screwing up his dose -unintentionally- is unlikely IMO

I agree with the rest of what you say though. The point was brought up on this segment that we put down our dogs or cats when they are suffering from terminal illnesses all the time to put them out of their pain, so why do we treat humans differently when most consider their animals family?

That could lead to some interesting conversations here.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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I'm living with stage 4 Metastatic Melanoma. I've had tumors in my sinus cavities, my lungs, my brain, my abdomen, shoulders, and most recently on my spinal cord.

I had those removed last weekend, they were small (less than 1/2 inch.) but I am still in alot of pain, just these few sentences take alot of effort. I have nerve damage on the right side of my body and my nerves going down my spinal cord and legs feel like they are on fire most of the time. I also have side effects from IL2 and radiation that I'm still dealing with from last year also. My body is shot. This is an incredibly deadly disease. It is responsible for only 4 percent of all skin cancer diagnosis, but its responsible for 80 percent of all skin cancer deaths. I'll be extremely lucky if I am alive 4-5 years from now. I am not deluding myself into thinking that I'm going to live to be an old man drinking my coffee on the front porch and yelling at kids to get off my lawn.

I'll tell you what makes me afraid.

Spending that time in pain.

Watching my loved ones watch ME in pain. That's the worst part is watching your family suffer because they are watching YOU suffer.

I only hope if I am in a situation where I am in so much pain and I'm eaten up with Melanoma that someone would love me enough to send me back to God.

Everyone seems to like to pretend that they are never going to die. They forget that its a naturail process and they are going to die also. I think most people's ego tricks them into just ignoring death and pretending its never going to happen to them, that's its this horrible thin when in reality in can be a sweet release from the pain and suffering in this world.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by Cancerwarrior

I'm living with stage 4 Metastatic Melanoma. I've had tumors in my sinus cavities, my lungs, my brain, my abdomen, shoulders, and most recently on my spinal cord.

I had those removed last weekend, they were small (less than 1/2 inch.) but I am still in alot of pain, just these few sentences take alot of effort. I have nerve damage on the right side of my body and my nerves going down my spinal cord and legs feel like they are on fire most of the time. I also have side effects from IL2 and radiation that I'm still dealing with from last year also. My body is shot. This is an incredibly deadly disease. It is responsible for only 4 percent of all skin cancer diagnosis, but its responsible for 80 percent of all skin cancer deaths. I'll be extremely lucky if I am alive 4-5 years from now. I am not deluding myself into thinking that I'm going to live to be an old man drinking my coffee on the front porch and yelling at kids to get off my lawn.

I'll tell you what makes me afraid.

Spending that time in pain.

Watching my loved ones watch ME in pain. That's the worst part is watching your family suffer because they are watching YOU suffer.

I only hope if I am in a situation where I am in so much pain and I'm eaten up with Melanoma that someone would love me enough to send me back to God.

Everyone seems to like to pretend that they are never going to die. They forget that its a naturail process and they are going to die also. I think most people's ego tricks them into just ignoring death and pretending its never going to happen to them, that's its this horrible thin when in reality in can be a sweet release from the pain and suffering in this world.





I am so sorry for your pain and what you have been through and appreciate your reply to this thread so much. A lot of people who called in to this radio segment had stories such as yours, where they did not wish their family to suffer while they suffered when they eventually knew they would get to a point of wanting to go in peace.

I agree entirely about the ego instinct preventing us from accepting our inevitable deaths. I believe it even prevents us from TALKING about it. I believe when most people hear or read the words "Assisted Suicide" the survival instinct/ego/delusion whatever you want to call it says "NO WE CANT TALK ABOUT THAT" and it has created a taboo around subject so no one can have a serious logical conversation about the definition of compassionate care, long term pain management, and how those pretty words hide something that isn't so nice to think about.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:31 PM
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Originally posted by ValentineWiggin

If we hypothesize that she did intend to kill him, yeah she would have murdered him if he had died then but he didn't, he died four days later. There is also this big elephant in the room that I can't get over... wasn't the long term care plan to kill him anyway? He was dying anyway. He wanted to die anyway. You could go so far as to say God was ready for him to die but I really don't want to go down that road.


Heres the problem, who gets the say? IN the absence of Laws to regulate such issues it really is up to the D.A. to decide if criminal intent was involved.

and she flip flops the story, Surely you could understand that IF there is to be allowable assisted suicides, it has to be regulated strictly.

Otherwise you could get family members offing others for their money, etc. Just to hurry the process along, I understand the case is sad but see the need for strict rules and regulations regarding such a topic..

I could walk into death row and shoot someone because they are taking up my tax dollars, but guess who will probably be sitting on it soon after.

The excuse of they are already going to die does not fly in such cases.

edit on 13-8-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:34 PM
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I don't have a specific opinion on this nurse or her actions (mainly because it's hard to pin down her true intentions).

However, I am adamant about allowing a person to choose to die if they are in horrible suffering. The comment about pets is exactly the way it makes sense to me. We would never make an animal that is mauled or in indescribable pain continue in their anguish- we put them down to end their suffering. So, why do we insist humans suffer?

One of the most terrifying human afflictions I have ever heard of is locked in syndrome. Hearing about it freaked me out so bad I begged my husband to kill me if such a thing ever happened to me. One story in particular broke my heart. One man suffering from locked in syndrome had used eye movements to appeal to the courts for the right to die. His appeals were refused and I think he died in the end of refusing his feeding tube although I'm not sure how he was able to do that.

There is such a thing as a fate worse than death and we shouldn't force our code onto others who are begging to be released from pain.

The only drawback is I could see it being abused to kill those who don't want to die or those deemed 'undesirable.' But in the case a person makes it abundantly clear they want to 'go home,' I have NO PROBLEM with them being accommodated.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:35 PM
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Honestly if it was me and I was in that much pain, I wouldn't want my family to suffer due to my own suffering and probably go that same route.

As to Barbara Mancini, she did flip flop which is what they would look into. However her father didn't die so I don't see how she should be charged with assisted suicide.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by benrl

Originally posted by ValentineWiggin

If we hypothesize that she did intend to kill him, yeah she would have murdered him if he had died then but he didn't, he died four days later. There is also this big elephant in the room that I can't get over... wasn't the long term care plan to kill him anyway? He was dying anyway. He wanted to die anyway. You could go so far as to say God was ready for him to die but I really don't want to go down that road.


Heres the problem, who gets the say? IN the absence of Laws to regulate such issues it really is up to the D.A. to decide if criminal intent was involved.

and she flip flops the story, Surely you could understand that IF there is to be allowable assisted suicides, it has to be regulated strictly.

Otherwise you could get family members offing others for their money, etc. Just to hurry the process along, I understand the case is sad but see the need for strict rules and regulations regarding such a topic..

I could walk into death row and shoot someone because they are taking up my tax dollars, but guess who will probably be sitting on it soon after.

The excuse of they are already going to die does not fly in such cases.

edit on 13-8-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)



My proposal is that we create a venue for people to choose assisted suicide in the event that they become terminal or another condition that makes their quality of life unbearable.

I believe that the decision should have to be brought to a judge with expert witnesses 1) Their Dr. 2) A psychiatrist. The Dr. to explain to the court why he/she supports the assisted suicide in regards to their health situation and a psychiatrist to confirm that the patient is of sound mind to make such decisions.

On that note, I also believe these decisions should be allowed at any given point in a persons life just like a DNR order and go through the same process. The person who wishes to have assisted suicide (at any age) should set forth the conditions of which they would like it to happen ( Im talking about terminal illness, schizophrenia, dementia, whatever, not just someone saying at 18 if they get perscribed an anti-depressant they want assisted suicide).

What is a DNR order anyway? The medical team will stand by and the family and do nothing to help. In many cases there is plenty to do, but the patient requested them not to. It's the same to me, and I think people should be able to choose to a certain extent based on crippling health conditions.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
I don't have a specific opinion on this nurse or her actions (mainly because it's hard to pin down her true intentions).

However, I am adamant about allowing a person to choose to die if they are in horrible suffering. The comment about pets is exactly the way it makes sense to me. We would never make an animal that is mauled or in indescribable pain continue in their anguish- we put them down to end their suffering. So, why do we insist humans suffer?

One of the most terrifying human afflictions I have ever heard of is locked in syndrome. Hearing about it freaked me out so bad I begged my husband to kill me if such a thing ever happened to me. One story in particular broke my heart. One man suffering from locked in syndrome had used eye movements to appeal to the courts for the right to die. His appeals were refused and I think he died in the end of refusing his feeding tube although I'm not sure how he was able to do that.

There is such a thing as a fate worse than death and we shouldn't force our code onto others who are begging to be released from pain.

The only drawback is I could see it being abused to kill those who don't want to die or those deemed 'undesirable.' But in the case a person makes it abundantly clear they want to 'go home,' I have NO PROBLEM with them being accommodated.


The reference to the assisted deaths of animals really got me thinking as well. I have put a few dogs down, and a horse, and more cows than I care to count. I worked in chicken houses and had to cull the chickens also. Which is slightly different, but still.

People may argue that a system where one could choose (like a DNR order) in extreme conditions to be peacefully brought to death might be abused. There is a difference between a government mandate on if you have x condition and its terminal you have to die- and - if you have x condition and it is terminal you can choose to die. The point is choice, and that word CHOICE has to exist in any conversation that is had on the topic. Yet people write wills every day about what they want done after their deaths and those legal documents do not get abused they are upheld by the judicial system in the majority of cases ( I can't think of a case currently where a will was abused).

I agree with you... it could be abused, but I feel also in this case the man's DNR request was abused because they revived him despite of it. Now I know a DNR (or I think I know) means in the event of the heart or circulatory system failing. I can't find anything stating whether or not his heart stopped at any point.
edit on 13-8-2013 by ValentineWiggin because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by ValentineWiggin

On that note, I also believe these decisions should be allowed at any given point in a persons life just like a DNR order and go through the same process. The person who wishes to have assisted suicide (at any age) should set forth the conditions of which they would like it to happen ( Im talking about terminal illness, schizophrenia, dementia, whatever, not just someone saying at 18 if they get perscribed an anti-depressant they want assisted suicide).

You are treading in some muddy waters at the point when you start talking non-terminal illness.

Someone wants to take their own life fine with me, you have that right now, its usually done with terminal velocity off a high place, Abuse of pharmacology, or the lead kind.

Otherwise thats when the law needs to come in and allow ELDERLY who are unable to take their own by their own hand if they so deem it.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by benrl

Originally posted by ValentineWiggin

On that note, I also believe these decisions should be allowed at any given point in a persons life just like a DNR order and go through the same process. The person who wishes to have assisted suicide (at any age) should set forth the conditions of which they would like it to happen ( Im talking about terminal illness, schizophrenia, dementia, whatever, not just someone saying at 18 if they get perscribed an anti-depressant they want assisted suicide).

You are treading in some muddy waters at the point when you start talking non-terminal illness.

Someone wants to take their own life fine with me, you have that right now, its usually done with terminal velocity off a high place, Abuse of pharmacology, or the lead kind.

Otherwise thats when the law needs to come in and allow ELDERLY who are unable to take their own by their own hand if they so deem it.


That's what I was trying to say and I may have mis-communicated.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by ValentineWiggin
 





I agree entirely about the ego instinct preventing us from accepting our inevitable deaths. I believe it even prevents us from TALKING about it.



My wife bursts into tears when I try and talk about it with her. My family too has convinced themselves that I beat it the first few times i went to MD Anderson and that's it. Melanoma does not really go into remission like other cancers do. I've been unable to get out of bed the past 10 days or so since the operation. My mom and dad came and saw me when I got home from from the hospitol. The left shortly after when they saw I could not move without my eyes going to the back of my head from the pain. When they left they were crying, and I NEVER seen my dad cry.

I notice too alot of folks are keeping their distance now that I'm really starting to show the wear and tear. The same folks that would come around after a surgury or an IL treatment to tell me that I've been on their churches prayer list have not been around lately. Not that I'm complaining, I'll take all th prayer I can get! I guess I remind them that sooner or later we all pass on, but really death is just a part of life.

No need to apologize, but thank you just the same for the kind words.Like I stated before, my own physical pain is only part of it. Watching my family cry because thay are watching me suffer is a worse.

I'm determined to face my death without the fear that has seemed to pervade alot of my life. I used to be quite a negative person, believe it or not the cancer has made me not only a better person, but more appreciative of everything I've experienced and have yet to experience.

There was a thread on ATS a while back about the top 5 regrets of the Dying. It was written by a Hospice nurse. The number one regret of people that are facing death is that they wished they had just chosen to be happier. In the end you realize it's not anything material that will make you truly happy. It really is a choice.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is the thread with the article.

I feel like if I take my own life, no matter the amount of pain I'm in I will distance myself from the source that is God. So I hope if it comes down to it, someone can help me do it.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
reply to post by ValentineWiggin
 





I agree entirely about the ego instinct preventing us from accepting our inevitable deaths. I believe it even prevents us from TALKING about it.



My wife bursts into tears when I try and talk about it with her. My family too has convinced themselves that I beat it the first few times i went to MD Anderson and that's it. Melanoma does not really go into remission like other cancers do. I've been unable to get out of bed the past 10 days or so since the operation. My mom and dad came and saw me when I got home from from the hospitol. The left shortly after when they saw I could not move without my eyes going to the back of my head from the pain. When they left they were crying, and I NEVER seen my dad cry.

I notice too alot of folks are keeping their distance now that I'm really starting to show the wear and tear. The same folks that would come around after a surgury or an IL treatment to tell me that I've been on their churches prayer list have not been around lately. Not that I'm complaining, I'll take all th prayer I can get! I guess I remind them that sooner or later we all pass on, but really death is just a part of life.

No need to apologize, but thank you just the same for the kind words.Like I stated before, my own physical pain is only part of it. Watching my family cry because thay are watching me suffer is a worse.

I'm determined to face my death without the fear that has seemed to pervade alot of my life. I used to be quite a negative person, believe it or not the cancer has made me not only a better person, but more appreciative of everything I've experienced and have yet to experience.

There was a thread on ATS a while back about the top 5 regrets of the Dying. It was written by a Hospice nurse. The number one regret of people that are facing death is that they wished they had just chosen to be happier. In the end you realize it's not anything material that will make you truly happy. It really is a choice.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is the thread with the article.

I feel like if I take my own life, no matter the amount of pain I'm in I will distance myself from the source that is God. So I hope if it comes down to it, someone can help me do it.







This is where I developed a huge respect for Hospice workers, they are angels.

I worked in the Oncology wing of a major hospital in this state and I also worked in their Chemo lounge (lounge? really?). I took calls from hospice (among 5 other jobs that I had to do) for refills on the cancer patient's pain meds. It was always... -always-.... morphine or phenergan (for nausea). I was constantly writing down patient names, hospice care giver names, running them back to the nurse and having her scribble a Dr's name on a script for Morphine all... day.... long.

I had to make the calls when a patient passed in the hospital. To hospice and to the family. I will just say this... calling the hospice caregiver in the event of their patients death was the WORST part of my job. They were so distraught because... the family had already removed themselves emotionally from it.

Now this was not always the case, but it WAS the majority. Which goes on to prove your point that our ego prevents us from accepting death even if it means distancing yourself from a family member who is dying, which I am guilty of myself.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 06:28 PM
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I have to bring up Terri Shiavo here. If she had the opportunity to form a legal document early in life stating that in a vegetative state she would like assistance with ending it things might have gone differently. I don't know if it was confirmed ever but she was known to have suffered from bulimia. Most of the drama revolved around the feeding tube.

ENTER PURE SPECULATION AND OPINION:

As someone who suffered anorexia and bulimia the most horrible thing I can think of is being force fed in a vegetative state which she arguably could have been aware of... that goes into neurology we are still trying to understand.

Her husband was at war with her family who was holding on to her despite the FIFTEEN YEARS she was kept alive in this state. Yeah it was fifteen years.

Now I can't tell you what Terri would have wanted and it would be disgusting if I did, what I can tell you is that my husband and I have an "agreement" and it is definitely a decision I would not want my family to make.

Just an example.. if that makes sense.
edit on 13-8-2013 by ValentineWiggin because: (no reason given)

edit on 13-8-2013 by ValentineWiggin because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


The hospice worker is not the one under scrutiny, it is the man's daughter who happens to be a nurse, just for clarification.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 06:50 PM
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This comes from an edited skype conversation with the OP about the subject at hand... take it for what it's worth and in the spirit it's meant please.

are we truly free if we're not even allowed to choose to die with dignity?

I mean really in many states it's a CRIME to attempt to kill yourself
think about this
we're so free we don't even get to choose when we have had enough
we're so free we are legally obligated to watch our loved ones degrade slowly and painfully while they BEG us for release!
not only that
but we're so free that we're expected to spend ourselves into complete bankruptcy keeping people alive who just want to die

but hey at least you can choose your religion and which group of people you'll let your pastor hate demonize and instill fear in you towards! (Or political ideologies or which apprentice you want to win... it's all the same crap! and none of it is NEARLY as important as living and DYING on your own terms!)
whether it's gays or women who god forbid have an abortion
[
because it's not at all a crime to give birth to a child you resent and hate and never wanted in the first place

NOOOO it's not like that ****s people up at all! It's not like unwanted children are more likely to be lost in the system from a young age and shockingly likely to never graduate high school or end up doing life in prison.... (Oh yeah except that's EXACTLY what happens to unwanted children all too often!)

Only YOU have any right or ABILITY to say whether what you are feeling is too much to bear
whether death is preferable to life
the government... **** your FAMILY doesn't have a say in that!
that's YOU and only YOU that can make that decision and more importantly make peace with that decision.

but the keyword there is CHOOSE!

you are no sort of free if you are forced to suffer horribly because people "don't feel right" about letting you go by your own choice!

why are we being TOLD anything about this? seriously the first part of the constitution states we are supposedly about life liberty and the pursuit of happiness
and further you have the RIGHT to ask someone who loves you and cares about you to HELP you because you have the RIGHT not to suffer! when happiness is no longer possible because of pain or who knows what... when you can no longer have a life that's worth living in your own mind you have the RIGHT to choose not to do it anymore!

Supposedly we are CITIZENS not SUBJECTS.... further though and more disturbing I thought the Gettysburg address was supposed to be the point in American history where it became unacceptable for one man to retain ultimate control over the life of another man! And let's be honest here people... if you can't CHOOSE to die... you aren't a person you are PROPERTY.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by roguetechie
women who god forbid have an abortion



The use of your word FREEDOM in this situation and the quoted text are incredibly relevant. Now we are considering in what situations this is acceptable.

RT brings up a valid point with abortion in that respect. Abortion is still taking a life, no questions are asked as why.

Now the topic of abortion is incredibly divisive, I don't want this to become a debate about that. I just want everyone to consider the legality of it in comparison to the legality of assisted suicide and keep it on topic in that respect.


edit on 13-8-2013 by ValentineWiggin because: (no reason given)



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