Rolling (in the grave) with Dead Presidents

Remember the good old days? Politicians talked about Providence and God's watchful eye but they didn't try to interpret or impose His word? And the clergy NEVER preached politics or told you how to vote without a swift kick in the robe?

Of course, that's all changed thanks to divisive wedge politics.

Meet a man that could never be elected today running against Karl Rove, John F. Kennedy.

On Sept. 12, 1960, Kennedy affirmed that his allegiance was to the American people, not the pope. "I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute," Kennedy told an audience of skeptical Protestant ministers in Houston. "Where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote. An America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish. Where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from any ecclesiastical source. Where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind.

"I am not the Catholic candidate for president," Kennedy concluded. "I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president, who happens also to be a Catholic. I do not speak for my church on public matters, and the church does not speak for me."

But the radical, anti-Americanism of fringe politicial influences didn't start in the 60's (at least not the 1960's). We've always had our secularist elements hovering outside the mainstream. Get a load of this nutjob, Thomas Jefferson.

"We have no right to prejudice another in his civil enjoyments because he is of another church." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:546

Screw you Jefferson. 51% have spoken.

"Our civil rights have no dependence upon our religious opinions more than our opinions in physics or geometry." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:545

Get a job ya dirty hippie. Seriously though, what if something "new" comes up like...oh I don't know...small groups of people not like the rest of us?

"If a sect arises whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play and reasons and laughs it out of doors without suffering the State to be troubled with it." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:224

Nope. Makes more sense to take a vote and amend the Constitution, don't ya think? Come on Jefferson. Haven't you heard that whole thing about seperation of Church and State isn't real and was made up by liberals in the 60's?

"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

Get the fawk outta here! That was YOU! Well surely there should be some role for Religion in government, like religious special interest groups. You know, large voting blocks rallied by spiritual leaders...to protect our liberties of course.

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." --Thomas Jefferson to Horatio G. Spafford, 1814. ME 14:119

Dude. Harsh. In every country and every age? Okay, okay, okay....what about...OH, OH, OH...a compromise? How about Faith Based Initiatives? That's cool right?

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545

I give up. With Founding Father's like you, how did we ever get along so well before Bush saved us... :shk:

[edit on 11-11-2004 by RANT]

Everyone remembers Bob Jones University right? The segregationalist (not to mention anti-gay) South Carolina "University" that George Bush campaigned at in 2000.

Now they're calling in markers.

Congratulatory Letter to George Bush from Bob Jones III

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:

The media tells us that you have received the largest number of popular votes of any president in America's history. Congratulations!

In your re-election, God has graciously granted America�though she doesn't deserve it�a reprieve from the agenda of paganism. You have been given a mandate. We the people expect your voice to be like the clear and certain sound of a trumpet. Because you seek the Lord daily, we who know the Lord will follow that kind of voice eagerly.

Don't equivocate. Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ. Honor the Lord, and He will honor you.

*snip*

The student body, faculty, and staff at Bob Jones University commit ourselves to pray for you�that you would do right and honor the Savior. Pull out all the stops and make a difference. If you have weaklings around you who do not share your biblical values, shed yourself of them. Conservative Americans would love to see one president who doesn't care whether he is liked, but cares infinitely that he does right.

Best wishes.

Sincerely your friend,

Bob Jones III
President

BJIII:lw

PS: A few moments ago I read this letter to the students in Chapel. They applauded loudly their approval.

When I told them that Tom Daschle was no longer the minority leader of the Senate, they cheered again.

What say you Jefferson?

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

Crazy old Jefferson. :shk:

Great post RANT. If he were here now I think he'd be totally shocked at what our government has evolved into.

So what your point, RANT? That the people voted in Bush? That Bush was voted in because of God, and something about him undermining people's morals? Did you happen to catch the polls about why voters voted for Bush? Most of the voters said, and I'm sure you already know this, good strong morals! Wow, considering that this guy subverts our morals, he sure got a lot of votes from people who think he has good strong morals!

Man, I'm going to need to update my little post in the Rant section, this probably makes over 20 posts by pissed off people about how evil Bush is. I'm sure the founding fathers would have preferred him over Kerry. I don't know if you were made aware, maybe you have some kind of filter on your T.V. where you can only hear left wing spin, but Kerry campaigned in churches! In fact, it was only after Kerry started doing so that Bush joined in as well! I don't think Jefferson would have liked him much .



[Edited on 11-11-2004 by Herman]

Originally posted by Herman
this probably makes over 20 posts by pissed off people about how evil Bush is.

Yet, when others of the same content, say they(we) are LEAVING the states, the response from Bush supporters is to stay and fight then, let our voices be heard.

So, which f'n way do you ppl want it?

Jeez, dislike/hate Bush? Damned either option we take.

Misfit

Originally posted by Herman
So what your point, RANT? That the people voted in Bush? That Bush was voted in because of God, and something about him undermining people's morals? Did you happen to catch the polls about why voters voted for Bush? Most of the voters said, and I'm sure you already know this, good strong morals! Wow, considering that this guy subverts our morals, he sure got a lot of votes from people who think he has good strong morals!

You've clearly lost it Herman. I know Bush won on "morals" and the unprecedented pulpit push. That's the point (read it again). Not sure where you get I said Bush subverts morals, as it's my thinking he imposes them wrongly on all of us. He's hell bent on a Theocracy (at least his "value voter" supporters are), and that's something Jefferson was clearly against.

The "point" is something called seperation of church and state. Something Bush would just as soon ignore.

Originally posted by Herman
Man, I'm going to need to update my little post in the Rant section, this probably makes over 20 posts by pissed off people about how evil Bush is.

Go update your little post in the rant section. But you may want to pack a clue for the trip. Be sure to quote how I said Bush was evil in this post. I'm eager to see where that was exactly.

Originally posted by Herman
I'm sure the founding fathers would have preferred him over Kerry.

Don't be so sure. You obviously can't even comprehend my post of Jefferson's words. I wouldn't trust you to interpret their minds.

Originally posted by Herman
I don't know if you were made aware, maybe you have some kind of filter on your T.V. where you can only hear left wing spin, but Kerry campaigned in churches! In fact, it was only after Kerry started doing so that Bush joined in as well!

That's an interesting "factoid" considering it comes two posts after one documenting Bush's 2000 campaign stop at Bob Jones University. Did Kerry invent a time machine I'm not aware of to secure the born-again block before Bush?

[edit on 11-11-2004 by RANT]

While I understand the current concern for separation of church and state, there is a very big difference between the concept, and people's use of it.

I do hear a good portion of the time that because religion (Christianity most often) is for/against something, that we are just to oppose it because the separation of church and state means that religion and government are to be polarized in the extreme.

What? There is no logic there, mainly due to the fact that no body on earth knows the truth about the afterlife (no matter how much they deny it), so one's ideas are as good as another.

The ideas or moral are not to be stricken from government all together, but rather that government will not be joined with an established religion (church), and there will be no "Official Church" in America.

This is a point that neither Candidate really is strong in, considering that neither are really worthy of the Christian vote.

The "strong morals" of Bush are a big joke. As for "preferring" Bush or Kerry, I think the founding fathers would take one look at the monolith in Washington and just hang themselves with a quick note that says "Pick whoever you want, you're screwed".

If you are going to bring in "Founding Fathers" here let us keep the players straight. While Jefferson was a �Founding Father�, Jefferson did not write the Constitution. Hamilton and Madison were the primary authors of that document. So if we are to discuss the intent of the clause we need, not to refer to the author of the Declaration of Independence, but to the men who wrote the Constitution.
Now the concept of a separation, you refer to, came from Jefferson talking to a group of Baptists and Jefferson had his reasons for that phrase. But this was written not by the authors. Let us see what both Hamilton and Madison had to say about this "wall".


Essay 44, Topic 24, sets forward the idea that there must be safeguards against the misuse of religion, in that no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.

Essay 51, lets us know that in a free government, the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights.

Essay 57, Topic 6, briefly elaborates that no qualification of wealth, birth, religious faith, or civil profession is permitted to fetter the judgment or disappoint the inclination of the people.

pledge-of-allegiance.net...

If you do not trust the above site, try this one:
www.law.ou.edu...

Notice how he said: "...that no qualification of wealth, birth, religious faith, or civil profession is permitted to fetter the judgment or disappoint the inclination of the people." Humm...he did not say the leadership did he? No Hamilton was addressing the Acts imposed by the Crown and some American states, at the time, which had provision of religion on voter eligibility.

Now the point of the 1st Amendment was not to keep the church out of the state, but rather to keep the state out of the church. The British had pass quite a few measure that forced people to worship the way the state wanted them to; the Conventicle Act of 1665, was a good example of this. The logic of not allowing religion and government to mix is impossible. Voters bring their beliefs into the election booth; this includes their religion. Freedom of association allows all groups to direct their focus where ever they choose.

I do agree with KrazyJethro, our founding fathers would be shocked to see what the federal government has become. Especially Jefferson, he believed in a egalitarian-yeoman-farmer country; not a super massive economic powerhouse.









A great legal essay on the Separation of Church and State:
www.lawandliberty.org...


[edit on 11-11-2004 by Imperium Americana]

Originally posted by RANT
You've clearly lost it Herman. I know Bush won on "morals" and the unprecedented pulpit push. That's the point (read it again). Not sure where you get I said Bush subverts morals, as it's my thinking he imposes them wrongly on all of us. He's hell bent on a Theocracy (at least his "value voter" supporters are), and that's something Jefferson was clearly against.

Not sure where you said he subverts morals? Well you certainly applied it here:

"If a sect arises whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play and reasons and laughs it out of doors without suffering the State to be troubled with it." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:224]/quote]

Nope. Makes more sense to take a vote and amend the Constitution, don't ya think? Come on Jefferson. Haven't you heard that whole thing about seperation of Church and State isn't real and was made up by liberals in the 60's?

The "point" is something called seperation of church and state. Something Bush would just as soon ignore.

Maybe I just read it wrong?

Go update your little post in the rant section. But you may want to pack a clue for the trip. Be sure to quote how I said Bush was evil in this post. I'm eager to see where that was exactly.

Be sure to tell ME where I said that you said he was evil. I'm eager as well. I don't think I'm the one who needs to get a clue here .

Originally posted by Herman
That's an interesting "factoid" considering it comes two posts after one documenting Bush's 2000 campaign stop at Bob Jones University. Did Kerry invent a time machine I'm not aware of to secure the born-again block before Bush?

I'm speaking of the election in 04, where he ran against Kerry. I realize he campaigned in churches in the past, but Kerry started it off in this particular race.
[edit on 11-11-2004 by RANT]

Honestly though, if anything people in the past were MORE persuaded by their religion! Like that line in the pledge, "One nation, under God".

History repeats?




My point is they were both liars, b/s artists and never "delivered".

Sanc'.

Bob Jones 'university'?!

The segregationist bigots who 'schooled' and gave us in northern Ireland "Doctor" (*s'n-word'*.....that's a doctorate as in 'ker-ching' you're now a doctor and a few $ lighter, old son!) Ian Paisley?! (a key figure in contributing to 40yrs+ of sectarian religious strife in NI)

Oh. My. God.

You really have a situation in the USA where they have a direct line to your President?!

Jayzuss; I was worried before but bl**dy hell man!
Those people really are the 'Christian' taliban.
Lord help us all.



[edit on 12-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

From the moron who posted this trash thread:

"But the radical, anti-Americanism of fringe politicial influences didn't start in the 60's (at least not the 1960's). We've always had our secularist elements hovering outside the mainstream. Get a load of this nutjob, Thomas Jefferson.

quote: "We have no right to prejudice another in his civil enjoyments because he is of another church." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:546

Screw you Jefferson. 51% have spoken. "


I come from the same family lines as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, my family came to Virginia in 1609 on a Land Grant, Holloway is the last name and I can honestly say that if it were not for Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Sam Adams, and many others there wouldn't have been a way for such trash as George W Bush and his stupid father to ever get into an office of power like they have because it wouldn't have existed. Never compare such great leaders as our forefathers to any stupid rich texan again, it really shows your lack of education and intelligence and also remember one thing. The families of our forefathers were here on the shores when the trash Bush family came via Ellis Island.

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
I come from the same family lines as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, my family came to Virginia in 1609 on a Land Grant, Holloway is the last name and I can honestly say that if it were not for Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, George Washington, Sam Adams, and many others there wouldn't have been a way for such trash as George W Bush and his stupid father to ever get into an office of power like they have because it wouldn't have existed. Never compare such great leaders as our forefathers to any stupid rich texan again, it really shows your lack of education and intelligence and also remember one thing. The families of our forefathers were here on the shores when the trash Bush family came via Ellis Island.

- GrndLkNatv, maybe I should leave this to Rant to explain to you but I think there's a ton of sarcasm and irony that has passed you by on this thread mate.

Happens to us all from time to time but I think you got Rant all wrong on this one.

Then I apologize, I am a little serious this morning. Us native Virginians get our blood boiling when you compare the Bush family to anything from Virginia as nothing from Texas can even compare, not even to our cow stuff.

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
Then I apologize, I am a little serious this morning.

That's a perfectly understandable response to anyone attacking the principles of this nation and a man like Jefferson... as I did satirically while Bush elements do seriously.

You may have missed the intent of the thread, but you got the point perfectly. Wish we all shared your outrage at the new Theocratic subversives.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
You really have a situation in the USA where they have a direct line to your President?!

Jayzuss; I was worried before but bl**dy hell man!
Those people really are the 'Christian' taliban.
Lord help us all.

My sentiments exactly.

Did you happen to see this thread sminkey?
Rise of the Reconstructionists

That should also give you pause.

.

Originally posted by Gools
Did you happen to see this thread sminkey?
Rise of the Reconstructionists

That should also give you pause.

.

- Excellent if depressing work.