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Inside the Hyperloop: the pneumatic travel system faster than the speed of sound

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posted on Aug, 11 2013 @ 08:00 PM
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www.telegraph.co.uk...

This system might actually get built! Los Angeles to San Francisco projected in 30 minutes at one tenth the cost of a 3 hour ride in a bullet train...


It is called “The Hyperloop” and, according to the designer, it will be a revolutionary “fifth mode” of transport, eclipsing trains, planes, boats and automobiles.



In an internet conversation this week with Sir Richard Branson, Mr Musk said: “I originally started thinking about it when I read a thing about California’s high speed rail project, which was somewhat disappointing. It is actually worse than taking the plane. I get a little sad when things are not getting better in the future


Golly Gee me too!!! Connecting cities that are 1000 miles apart with direct lines and no stops...Sounds like a plan to me. There would be hub cities where a hyperloop change would have to be made if there were not direct connects but it would still beat other modes of transport,,,IMO...




posted on Aug, 11 2013 @ 08:15 PM
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Well, I dont think people will be hanging on to the side of that hitching a free ride


The future is nearly here



posted on Aug, 11 2013 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by 727Sky
 


Very cool, thank you for posting this. S&F


In the article I found this part extremely interesting:


Mr Musk will not be patenting the design and it will be “open source”, meaning anyone can modify it, or try to build it.


That is very cool, I would imaging this will open the door for many new businesses and individuals jumping into the fray to propel(pun intended
) this technology forward. It will be interesting to see how this all unfolds from here.



edit on 8/11/2013 by mcx1942 because: typo



posted on Aug, 11 2013 @ 08:41 PM
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I feel that there is not going to be any "new" technology used to build this system, rather it will be the novel use of existing technologies. Of course magnets are going to have to be involved. But from what has been said, that is not the extent of the design. I would think that having a tube that could be used to create a vacuum might be used, which would eliminate resistance with the air, allowing higher speeds. I thought about a vehicle being propelled by air pressure, but this would require a relatively tight seal between the vehicle and the tube itself, which would be difficult because there would be friction of some sort.

But like they said, it could be similar to a tube used at the bank. The capsule doesn't fit snugly against the wall in such a system, yet it still works. But, this makes it less efficient from what I understand. It would require a huge amount of air pressure to propel a large vehicle, and that is why pressure alone will not likely be used. I would think that such speeds could be reached with magnets alone, and that would reduce the costs considerably if there didn't have to be pressure systems involved.

I was wondering about whether the g-forces would cause some passengers to black out or something, but I think that if the acceleration is gradual, this won't be a problem. They can accelerate the vehicle gradually up to the speed of sound. And this is another reason that makes me believe they will create a vacuum within the tube. Attempting to make a vehicle like this surpass the sound barrier when air is present will cause the vehicle to actually outrun the air, creating a sonic-boom and causing who knows what problems to the systems involved. So if they are hoping to reach the speed of sound, it would be wise to do so in a vacuum or at least a partial vacuum of sorts.

The inside of the vehicle will have to be pressurized, like an airplane, and will have to be designed much differently from your average train car, as it will have to withstand the pressure pushing outwards, which is the same force that causes a barrel to deform when the air is sucked out. Many people think that something like there vacuum cleaner is a magical suction device, and they don't realize the physics involved. Instead of a sucking action, there is more of a pushing action. Everything around us has pressure on it from all directions. Air pressure. When the inside of the vacuum is de-pressurized, the outside pressure actually pushes debris into the tube, instead of the vacuum sucking the debris into the tube.

So just as much as it is the lack of pressure inside the vacuum, it is also the greater amount of pressure outside the vacuum that causes it to operate. And when a person goes into a vacuum chamber or into space without a pressurized suit, the sudden loss of pressure on the outside of the body will cause a person's fluids to literally start bubbling, and they will quickly perish if not pressurized again. And in the design I am talking about, not only does one have to worry about creating a train car that can stand up to its own internal cabin pressure, but one must also take into consideration the pressure of the outside air pushing on the outside of the tube, which could make it deform or crash inward due to the pressure differential.

So a pressurized cabin would want to burst outward, while the pressurized tube the car was travelling inside would want to burst inward on itself, both due to the direction and location of the greater air pressure.
edit on 8/11/13 by JiggyPotamus because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 11 2013 @ 08:51 PM
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I've heard of this before, perhaps this same guy. It's an awesome idea and I hope it gets built. But in today's world, what an easy target for terrorism will this make if it ever gets into widespread use.



posted on Aug, 11 2013 @ 11:08 PM
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The Hyperloop system seems very interesting to me.

One great weakness and fear I believe would be earthquakes.

Especially 8.0-9.0 range.

Surely they would have a " OMG the tube broke 11 miles ahead braking system" on hand in case of an emergency.
edit on 11-8-2013 by ManOfHart because: spelled wrong.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by ManOfHart
One great weakness and fear I believe would be earthquakes.

edit on 11-8-2013 by ManOfHart because: spelled wrong.
I had the same thought. Doesn't have to be of a higher magnitude but even a slight movement in the location of the ground underneath can possibly 'crack' the enclosure if I understood the technology correctly unless they're planning to build the enclosures in segments (few hundred feet each) with moveable air tight seals at the joints. To me it sounds like the mechanism used at the Banks drive thru.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 01:16 PM
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Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by ManOfHart
One great weakness and fear I believe would be earthquakes.

edit on 11-8-2013 by ManOfHart because: spelled wrong.
I had the same thought. Doesn't have to be of a higher magnitude but even a slight movement in the location of the ground underneath can possibly 'crack' the enclosure if I understood the technology correctly unless they're planning to build the enclosures in segments (few hundred feet each) with moveable air tight seals at the joints. To me it sounds like the mechanism used at the Banks drive thru.


Both of you have good points. I would assume that they would integrate a system to allow the track to slide with earthquake waves to absorb the energy and keep everything in one piece. Kind of like how tall buildings have their EQ protection systems to do kind of the same thing.

I'm excited about this though. And open-source as well?!? Heck yeah! If the design is sound, there could be some positive changes ahead for city-to-city transportation.
edit on 12-8-2013 by Gu1tarJohn because: ETA



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by 727Sky
 


His twitter :

twitter.com...

Says he will be revealing plans today at 1:30 PT.
(pulled an all nighter with others)




posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by Gu1tarJohn

Originally posted by hp1229

Originally posted by ManOfHart
One great weakness and fear I believe would be earthquakes.

edit on 11-8-2013 by ManOfHart because: spelled wrong.
I had the same thought. Doesn't have to be of a higher magnitude but even a slight movement in the location of the ground underneath can possibly 'crack' the enclosure if I understood the technology correctly unless they're planning to build the enclosures in segments (few hundred feet each) with moveable air tight seals at the joints. To me it sounds like the mechanism used at the Banks drive thru.


Both of you have good points. I would assume that they would integrate a system to allow the track to slide with earthquake waves to absorb the energy and keep everything in one piece. Kind of like how tall buildings have their EQ protection systems to do kind of the same thing.

I'm excited about this though. And open-source as well?!? Heck yeah! If the design is sound, there could be some positive changes ahead for city-to-city transportation.
edit on 12-8-2013 by Gu1tarJohn because: ETA
Unless until the ground underneath shifts significantly to the left or right or up or down
I'm sure the engineers will plan it accordingly.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:04 PM
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This reminds me of a movie I once saw (Battle Beneath the Earth, from 1967) where a Chinese general wanted to invade the U.S. using a tunnel dug between China and the United States. For the General to move between China and the U.S. quickly, he used a pneumatic tube (like you see at drive-through bank tellers, but bigger).

Here is the whole movie, but see the 35:40 mark and the 36:35 mark for the general using this tube. (The movie wasn't exactly "good", but had a certain "campiness" that made up for its lack of quality):




edit on 8/12/2013 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 04:07 PM
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Ok, rendering is up!


twitter.com...



Is there truly a new mode of transport – a fifth mode after planes, trains, cars and boats – that meets those criteria and is practical to implement? Many ideas for a system with most of those properties have been proposed and should be acknowledged, reaching as far back as Robert Goddard’s to proposals in recent decades by the Rand Corporation and ET3......


The Hyperloop (or something similar) is, in my opinion, the right solution for the specific case of high traffic city pairs that are less than about 1500 km or 900 miles apart. Around that inflection point, I suspect that supersonic air travel ends up being faster and cheaper. With a high enough altitude and the right geometry, the sonic boom noise on the ground would be no louder than current airliners, so that isn’t a showstopper. Also, a quiet supersonic plane immediately solves every long distance city pair without the need for a vast new worldwide infrastructure.

www.teslamotors.com...


PDF File



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 06:27 PM
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Originally posted by ManOfHart

One great weakness and fear I believe would be earthquakes.

Especially 8.0-9.0 range.


edit on 11-8-2013 by ManOfHart because: spelled wrong.


A quake of that size would be a weakness to much more than just this technology. We drive the streets, take trains and buses everywhere, so this quake risk is just as real on the ground as it is in the hyperloop. Can't really see that being the lead cause to stop production (every other mode of transport seems to be operating just fine with the ground shaking).

I can't imagine they would actually go through with the construction of this without weighing on natural disasters and their potential risks.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 06:52 PM
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So many things wrong with this overhyped idea, it's hard to pick where to start.

Fifth mode? No, it's clearly a type of train.

Solar is an irrational choice for this project. Musk is just a guy who wants to sell batteries because he is so deeply invested in batteries now, and this thing would need a huge number of batteries. He's trying to push battery powered airplanes for the same reason.

His companies strike me as having a problem: because of promises on the batteries he sells, he always has to sell more batteries than the previous year or he'll be in serious financial trouble. It borders on a battery ponzi scheme; he can afford to buy back batteries so long as he can sell more batteries than he has to buy back.

The 30 seconds apart thing is impossible. Relatively empty trains would be significantly faster and could catch up to full/heavier trains, so you can't run them at a standard distance/time apart, and certainly not one so small.

But the real limiting factor on how far apart they can travel together is safety. One train would have to be far enough behind another so that it could stop in time if something went wrong with the train ahead of it.

Otherwise, a bomb on one of these things would be devastating. A single bomb or crash for any reason would kill everyone on not only the train it was on, but with only 30 seconds separating each train, it would kill everyone on however many trains could not brake in time. At 30 seconds apart, 5 minutes is 10 trains and even 5 minutes doesn't seem to me like enough time to safely stop something massive that was moving at 800+ MPH.

This tells me that each train could not be large. Forget transporting cars or freight, it would have to be passengers only and the smaller the better because more mass makes it harder and harder to stop the thing. So maybe something with a passenger capacity similar to a bus.

Higher speeds mean lower fault tolerance and thus higher maintenance demands. Higher speeds means more heat, more strain, and so more wear in a shorter amount of time. There's no way this thing would be cheap to maintain. You'd have to be actively monitoring all 1000+ miles of track all the time with sensors, and whenever there was a problem, you'd have to shut everything down until you can get somebody out to the middle of nowhere to fix it. A single train going down the line could create problems on the track behind it so that's another limitation on how often you can send them.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by LeftKoast

Originally posted by ManOfHart

One great weakness and fear I believe would be earthquakes.

Especially 8.0-9.0 range.


edit on 11-8-2013 by ManOfHart because: spelled wrong.


A quake of that size would be a weakness to much more than just this technology. We drive the streets, take trains and buses everywhere, so this quake risk is just as real on the ground as it is in the hyperloop. Can't really see that being the lead cause to stop production (every other mode of transport seems to be operating just fine with the ground shaking).

The super-high speeds involved makes it different than other modes of ground-based transport.

Could one of these "pods/train cars" moving several hundred mph stop quickly enough if there was an earthquake that damaged a tube ahead, or would it crush itself against a kink in the tube while moving at these super-high speeds


I can't imagine they would actually go through with the construction of this without weighing on natural disasters and their potential risks.

Which is why this idea may never become a reality (or at least not in the foreseeable future).


edit on 8/12/2013 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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Musk is pretty a interesting guy and you have to give him credit for everything he has done. This idea though is bordering on stupid.

It's an elevated platform? At those speeds it would have to an extremely straight track. That means it will inevitably run into eminent domain issues.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 07:56 PM
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Originally posted by drock905
Musk is pretty a interesting guy and you have to give him credit for everything he has done. This idea though is bordering on stupid.

It's an elevated platform? At those speeds it would have to an extremely straight track. That means it will inevitably run into eminent domain issues.


Yes. It is an elegant idea, but the devil may be in the details, a few of which have been pointed out in this thread.

However, we need to dream big. This may someday become a reality, and it may start with Musk's vision, but I think there are too many obstacles to overcome in the form of these details that may cause this to take a long time to become reality.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by drock905
Musk is pretty a interesting guy and you have to give him credit for everything he has done. This idea though is bordering on stupid.

It's an elevated platform? At those speeds it would have to an extremely straight track. That means it will inevitably run into eminent domain issues.


Have you even read the PDF report? I don't think so.



posted on Aug, 13 2013 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by bl4ke360

Originally posted by drock905
Musk is pretty a interesting guy and you have to give him credit for everything he has done. This idea though is bordering on stupid.

It's an elevated platform? At those speeds it would have to an extremely straight track. That means it will inevitably run into eminent domain issues.


Have you even read the PDF report? I don't think so.


I don't know about drok, but I read the PDF, and drok does raise a valid point. It seems they want to limit curved track radii to >3.0 miles to be able to maintain the 750+ mph as much as they can. They did say they can have a track bend radii as small as 1.0 miles, but the pod would need to slow down to 330 mph to navigate that curve.

Therefore, even if we figure 1.0 mile radii bends, that is still a relatively straight track that will NOT be able to keep to existing rights-of-way. There will be some occasions where eminent domain issues will arise. There would be no way to follow an existing right-of -way (say along Interstate 80 across the entire U.S.) by using 3.0 radius curves, or even 1.0 radius curves.

That's not a deal breaker by any means. However, procuring the land rights would still become an issue, and maybe a sticky one sometimes.



posted on Aug, 14 2013 @ 12:19 AM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by bl4ke360

Originally posted by drock905
Musk is pretty a interesting guy and you have to give him credit for everything he has done. This idea though is bordering on stupid.

It's an elevated platform? At those speeds it would have to an extremely straight track. That means it will inevitably run into eminent domain issues.


Have you even read the PDF report? I don't think so.


I don't know about drok, but I read the PDF, and drok does raise a valid point. It seems they want to limit curved track radii to >3.0 miles to be able to maintain the 750+ mph as much as they can. They did say they can have a track bend radii as small as 1.0 miles, but the pod would need to slow down to 330 mph to navigate that curve.

Therefore, even if we figure 1.0 mile radii bends, that is still a relatively straight track that will NOT be able to keep to existing rights-of-way. There will be some occasions where eminent domain issues will arise. There would be no way to follow an existing right-of -way (say along Interstate 80 across the entire U.S.) by using 3.0 radius curves, or even 1.0 radius curves.

That's not a deal breaker by any means. However, procuring the land rights would still become an issue, and maybe a sticky one sometimes.



It would still be a lot less of an issue than with the high speed rail, as that needs a huge foundation surrounding both sides of the track, whereas with the hyperloop that wouldn't be the case.




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