New low for the Tea Party

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Kali74

 

I am also a Libertarian but I'm on the Left side where as you are a Right Libertarian.

Then still a lefist as a libertarian is:

And

Might as well just drop the 'libertarian' part

Yes Libertarian Left is Leftist, you got it right! Liberal is center. Left Libertarian and Liberal are not the same thing. Why drop the Libertarian?

Originally posted by votan
I am not saying this is right.. but wasn't there a campaign going on not to long ago to post a list of gun owners publicly in an attempt to shame them or intimidate them??

And that was wrong also.
any...-any- lists about your neighbors serves to only divide the community, and there is a special place in hell for those whom would try to turn your neighbor into a label.

reply to post by neo96


Aaaaarrrrggghhhhh! STOP! You are BOTH correct. The classical form of the word "Liberal" derives from "Liberalis" - "noble, gracious, munificent, generous," literally "of freedom, pertaining to or befitting a free man," from liber "free, unrestricted, unimpeded; unbridled, unchecked, licentious." This begot the modern term "Libertarian".

In the early 1820 the Liberal Party of Great Britain adopted a "Liberal" standard of tolerance that departed from the more Classic Conservatism of the Christian Church and used terminology like "Tolerance, free from prejudice". The movement of the time was one toward Collectivism whereas the use of "Liberalism" was seen as being more tolerant toward government to affect social change".

Look up the Etymology of the word "Liberal" for a more defined history - I've only given you the brief, abridged version.

reply to post by muse7


ROFL
look at all the right wing reactionaries
acting like moderate muslims having to defend themselves from the broad brush

the dialogue and arguments are identical

"oh noz, they is difrunt kinds of us, them nasties :

DO NOT REPRESENT ALLS OF US, THEY IZ EXTREMISTs...!"

so practice what you preach on the muslim bashing threads:

denounce these theives and "extremists" and hold them to account.

Since the above is a litany of sources at your request...I will simplify it here for you...

Originally posted by kozmo

Alexis Tocqueville once stated, "Democracy dies as soon as people realize they can vote themselves money." A Frenchman who favored the writings of Benjamin Franklin as they shared similar political philosophy. He went on to elaborate Franklin's statement: "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." First published in Democracy in America published in 1835.

WRONG

Alexis de Tocqueville
Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville (29 July 1805 – 16 April 1859) was a French political thinker and historian, most famous for his work Democracy in America.


Misattributed

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

en.wikiquote.org...

reply to post by Kali74

Yes Libertarian Left is Leftist, you got it right! Liberal is center. Left Libertarian and Liberal are not the same thing. Why drop the Libertarian?

This why:

I am Left and I don't particularly care for Liberalism as it supports Capitalism.

Just left not center of nothing, not libertarian of any kind.

Which is what is running this country in to the ground with its state's control of the economy.

Basically what progressives do is hijack a name til they get found out then pick a new name to rinse and repeat the same ideology.

Free markets are free markets and only exist in the absence of government interventions AND it is that interventionism that created the welfare industrial complex.

That created the welfare state.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by burntheships

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Did the tea party write that specific note?
You know what...even if they didn't, they have in every way possible through their stances, their complete absurdly misunderstanding of the economics behind it all, and being a zombie.

Oh, so now it is time for the Strawman defense eh?

So, even if they are not guilty, "guilty by way" of a logical fallacy?
:shk:

edit on 12-8-2013 by burntheships because: (no reason given)

This is not a strawman argument. this is completely not a strawman in any way you can think of it. I gave links to the bloody tea party website and linked directly to articles discussing the whole food stamp thing.
If your "party" says they want to shoot kittens, and your debating if a specific "kill the kittens" poster is from the organization, it is not a strawman to point out all the kill the kittens dogma by said party. That is called establishing evidence.

Some people..I swear...shesh

yes, but that "evidence" you've "established" constitutes nothing more than a red herring, because it has nothing to do with the question....it's a distraction....an end run around the actual question, which is the validity of the claim that this specific note was written by a member of this specific party...there is no proof that this is the case, so it doesn't matter if food stamps are an issue discussed by this party, as food stamps, and disability are two completely different things....

i submit that your grasp of reality is tenuous at best....

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by votan
I am not saying this is right.. but wasn't there a campaign going on not to long ago to post a list of gun owners publicly in an attempt to shame them or intimidate them??

And that was wrong also.
any...-any- lists about your neighbors serves to only divide the community, and there is a special place in hell for those whom would try to turn your neighbor into a label.

There is no community.. if there was a community the community would know who needs help and who is committing fraud..

there is no community anymore there is just a bunch of divided individuals.... which is why you can have people commit fraud and have people who need help end up going to the government... because no one knows they need help or if they are committing a crime.

Originally posted by TheMagus
reply to post by muse7

 

ROFL
look at all the right wing reactionaries
acting like moderate muslims having to defend themselves from the broad brush

the dialogue and arguments are identical

"oh noz, they is difrunt kinds of us, them nasties :

DO NOT REPRESENT ALLS OF US, THEY IZ EXTREMISTs...!"

so practice what you preach on the muslim bashing threads:

denounce these theives and "extremists" and hold them to account.

What extremists? All I saw was a stupid non authored image of a text. Anyone could have written it. It looks more like typical distraction meant to divide people while the ptb laugh at the stupid sheep all bickering. Grow up.

reply to post by Indigo5


You didn't read my post. I stated that I would not post links as I spent over 30 minutes searching for support to your claim. I left that up to you. I also gave you the information you would need to validate my claim. The quote is attributed to Alexis Tocqueville in his book "Democracy in America" published in 1835.

Tocqueville, a Frenchman and noted scholar, was a fan of Benjamin Franklin's writings and philosophies. They were kindred spirits in that both men abhorred "Democracy" (Much to the chagrin of many historians). Both men advocated for a type of government that was Representative Republic but predicated upon Parliamentary Procedure. They feared that an over-zealous majority could hijack a government "Of the people" from the people by using populist representation (This is exactly what we are seeing today).

Whereas there is no written documentation to support that the quote is attributed to Benjamin Franklin, Tocqueville attributes the notion to Benjamin Franklin through his paraphrasing what he believed Franklin meant in a speech. To state that there is no evidence for the life of this quote prior to either 1988 or 1950 is disingenuous at best and fraudulent at worst.

The reality is that I wasn't there to hear the alleged speech, so I certainly can't verify it. But for those truly interested, "Democracy in America" is a fascinating study into the evolution of American Democracy and provides a blueprint to the French on the pitfalls of true Democracy so that they may avoid it as their own government evolved from a monarchy. Benjamin Franklin and countless others are cited throughout the book.

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by beezzer
Would everyone please stop using logic and reason.

This is a hit-thread on the Tea Party. There is NO evidence that supports the allegations that it is the Tea Party, but please don't let that stop the vitriol and hatred oozing off the cyber-pages of this thread.

Bumping for REALITY.

Problem is that these tactics used to demonize the opposition are extremely effective, damage done?

That said, perhaps the administration should consider using the IRS and maybe other agencies under their control to target the Tea Party and others... Oh wait... That may not be possible anymore.

Originally posted by seabag
Maybe if more people embraced the tough action advocated in the OP’s letter we’d make some progress! Maybe it’s time we start embarrassing the freeloaders and prosecuting the crooks; maybe then we’d get somewhere!!

The problem is all it will do it embraress the the REAL disabled. You think the crooks and fraudster would be shamed?

If they could be shamed they wouldnt not be defrauding the welfare system in the first place.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Kali74

 

I am also a Libertarian but I'm on the Left side where as you are a Right Libertarian.

Then still a lefist as a libertarian is:

And

Might as well just drop the 'libertarian' part

Sorry, but I went into convulsive fits of laughter when I read, "Giving generously to those in need" on the right. Sounds pretty socialist for a republican. You forgot the to put, "for a substantial tax write-off".

Originally posted by Daedalus
an end run around the actual question, which is the validity of the claim that this specific note was written by a member of this specific party...

ok

Can you prove to me that anyone in that group holding the signs is an actual patriot.
It seems you are saying we can no longer reasonably assume...there must be proof..maybe a video of them making it.
After all, just because it shows signs consistant to their stances, it doesn't mean they themselves are actual tea party members...could totally be mean liberals pretending to be tea partiers in that group.

so, can anyone prove beyond a doubt that the tea party even exists outside of like 6 people...everyone else may just be liberals pretending..and every sign ever is a rope-a-dope.

the brains at ATS decided this...

Incidently, can we be certain humans wrote the poem on the statue of liberty? is there a youtube video of humans doing it? It could be the molemen trying to get poor huddled masses and we are just taking the word of books and knowledge and stuff.


I give up...you refuse to acknowledge how I said the letter is almost beside the point and should lead to a discussion, but some of you are too thick to comprehend that
so, nevermind..actually...I know who wrote the sign in ops. it was clearly baby hitler with help from demon aliens....because the tea party lubs welfare programs and never, ever would say anything bad about them.

reply to post by Kali74

We are both human 1st and American 2nd so in that regard I will always have your back, I will always fight for your Liberty and I always respect your point of view even though I disagree with it. I don't expect thanks just not a kick in teeth either.

No teeth kicking on the interwebz…..just political banter displayed on a screen.

if Liberals aren't happy with Democrats, are Democrats really enacting much in the way of Liberal Policy?

Apparently not enough!

...and if Conservatives aren't happy with Republicans it's an automatic given that they aren't really Conservatives.

YUP!


I didn’t say democrats are all liberal or repubs are all conservative; obviously that’s not the case. Democrat/Repub are phony political parties, not ideologies. What I said is “liberal” and “left” is the same just as “right wing” and “conservative” is the same thing.

One of the biggest issues dividing Americans is whether we are supposed to ‘DO for ourselves’ or whether we’re ‘OWED’ something. IMO liberals/leftists (in the modern sense) all feel they are owed something and are entitled to a certain lifestyle for being born here. This feeling is reflected in their policies, the way they govern, and the way they act. There is no getting away from this entitlement mentality (seems to be growing), therefore we will always disagree and we will continue downhill. Anyone who thinks capitalism is to blame and government is a solution has no clue how this country got so far off track. This also means they have no realistic plan to fix it. Crying about cleaning up entitlements and expecting government to create jobs is proof as to how screwed we are!

reply to post by fenson76

Sorry, but I went into convulsive fits of laughter when I read, "Giving generously to those in need" on the right. Sounds pretty socialist for a republican. You forgot the to put, "for a substantial tax write-off".

Yeah free will does sound 'socialist' doesn't it ?

Compared to the other side of that coin using government fascism to 'give' to the 'needy'.

reply to post by crazyewok

The problem is all it will do it embraress the the REAL disabled.

Why do you think this? If you’re entitled…..you’re entitled; no need for shame. The people who are legit wouldn’t be the one’s exposed.

You think the crooks and fraudster would be shamed?

If they could be shamed they wouldnt not be defrauding the welfare system in the first place.

I don’t care if they are shamed….I want them brought to justice. They should be forced to repay every dollar they took fraudulently and should be banned from ever collecting tax payer money again (even if they need it!).

I’m a believer in ‘tough love’!

reply to post by neo96


Ok how am I wrong?

America has problems with welfare cheats and to easy acess to welfare. So does the UK?

USA has people defrauding its disability help so does the UK.

The USA is in massive debt so is the UK

As of March 31, 2013 he US debt/GDP was 104.8% at $16 Trillion. Britain debt is £1.39 Trillion at 90% of the GDP. [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2303345/Britains-debt-mountain-reaches-1-39TRILLION-equivalent-90-entire-economy-ONS-reveals.html]Link[/u rl] So as I said the USA debt is worse.

So were am I wrong?

How the hell did you get three starts for practcaly stateing F all? You just seem to post sound bites and witty one liners that have no substance what so ever.

And I am sure you will come back with some witty one liner or do what you normaly do when backed into a corner and call off topic or not intrested in which case I say

And can some mod fix the source link for the daily mail as the dam thing wont work no matter what I try and Im not fiddling around with it all night.

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by Indigo5

 

You didn't read my post. I stated that I would not post links as I spent over 30 minutes searching for support to your claim. I left that up to you. I also gave you the information you would need to validate my claim. The quote is attributed to Alexis Tocqueville in his book "Democracy in America" published in 1835.

No offense, but you appear to have an issue with honesty or a cognitive issue?

The above is simply factually incorrect. "Democracy in America"...does not include that qoute.

I have provided multiple links...you have provided none?

Again...

Alexis de Tocqueville
Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville (29 July 1805 – 16 April 1859) was a French political thinker and historian, most famous for his work Democracy in America.


Misattributed

The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

en.wikiquote.org...

Here is the text of "Democracy In America" by Tocqueville..Perhaps you could direct me to the qoute?

xroads.virginia.edu...

Originally posted by seabag

I don’t care if they are shamed….I want them brought to justice. They should be forced to repay every dollar they took fraudulently and should be banned from ever collecting tax payer money again (even if they need it!).

I’m a believer in ‘tough love’!

O I 100% agree on that I would round them up and shot them.


But I just dont like giveing out innocent peoples private personal data.