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New low for the Tea Party

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posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by Daedalus
 





so instead of actually discussing the topic, you choose to chime in for no other reason than to nitpick neo's s**tty grammar?


My grammar is not crappy thank you very much I am just waiting for government to come redistribute syntax, and puncutation etc..



Because they do such a wonderful job with the welfare industrial complex.


Actually your grammar was crap....you used a double-negative, which is grammatically incorrect. but since i, and anyone with an IQ over room temperature could understand the point of your statement, we let it slide....but that guy couldn't...

i was defending you....i believe the words you're looking for are "thanks for having my back, Daedalus."




posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by macman
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Saturn, come on man.
Where is the proof of this single instance that it came from a Tea Party Member and/or Group.

The whole, "Yeah, well you did this" argument is best saved for dealing with my kids.

edit on 12-8-2013 by macman because: (no reason given)

Actually, I wrote that proof is fairly irrelevant considering that is the defacto stance of the average teatime with super friends group (baggers is now considered an insult to the indigenous tea people). I posted links, even put up some high gloss pictures with stuff and words and things on it.

I don't actually see the point in debating if some (agreed, loner) teatime, happy friends, etc, person did it...it probably was just that, it isn't some tactic, its just some jerk finding a cool thing to produce hate on verses some nationwide bulletpoint to the pretend caucus to do everywhere..(like the westboro Baptists use their organization (of religion) to spew hate and anger). The better debate from this is, why is there even concern about snap by the tea party and no concern over the giant part of the farm bill (which snap is a part of) that gives crazy amounts of money to successful and unnervingly rich corporations.

I remember a video of a black panther standing outside of voting booths. Did anyone actually follow that guy around and see if indeed he was attending meetings? Did anyone see credentials to get absolute proof he was a black panther? No. He could have been a anti-black panther guy trying to get bad press for them
But then we decided to use some common sense. The argument was never really about that one guy, because the BPs do have a way of being jerkfaced racists...

And the tea party is against snap...and there are plenty of jerkfaces there. Not to say the entire tea party is represented in that letter...but the letter does represent a stance the tea party most certainly takes.

My question is...why have that stance when it is the tiny fish in a giant pond and at the same time, feed the giant fish in that pond. Well, something like that. pretend it is more yoda and zen...but that's the ultimate question here, and the point of the article, regardless of the initial intent or who actually made it.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by Kali74
 




Most liberals are just as unhappy with the policies that keep getting enacted as you are, yet you don't stop in your diatribe of filthy liberals long enough to consider that.

Of course we’re all unhappy! Liberal (left wing) policies don’t work. We told you so!! Maybe if more people embraced the tough action advocated in the OP’s letter we’d make some progress! Maybe it’s time we start embarrassing the freeloaders and prosecuting the crooks; maybe then we’d get somewhere!! Of course you still won’t like the end result because we’re obviously always going to have capitalism.




My filthy policies? Why is it that none (besides a scarce 2 or 3) of you right wingers on ATS can be civil?

Well, I know you don’t make policy so you’re not to blame! And I’m glad you consider me among the scarce 2 or 3 RIGHT WINGERS with acceptable table manners.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by burntheships

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Did the tea party write that specific note?
You know what...even if they didn't, they have in every way possible through their stances, their complete absurdly misunderstanding of the economics behind it all, and being a zombie.



Oh, so now it is time for the Strawman defense eh?



So, even if they are not guilty, "guilty by way" of a logical fallacy?
:shk:
edit on 12-8-2013 by burntheships because: (no reason given)

This is not a strawman argument. this is completely not a strawman in any way you can think of it. I gave links to the bloody tea party website and linked directly to articles discussing the whole food stamp thing.
If your "party" says they want to shoot kittens, and your debating if a specific "kill the kittens" poster is from the organization, it is not a strawman to point out all the kill the kittens dogma by said party. That is called establishing evidence.

Some people..I swear...shesh



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by SaturnFX
To demonstrate the poorly educated masses that make up the tea party, I will highlight a part of a comment within the comments section


Well, that's always a SUPER idea... Take a single part of an anonymous post on some website and then attribute the snippet to an entire population of people. Not like that would be a "Hasty Generalization" or something!


And all of that while offering editorial on someone else's "intelligence". I can assure that the irony wasn't lost on me!

Hasty generalization my arse.
You didn't follow the links, did you..You seen a name you didn't like, found a random sentence that could be considered a generalization, and just went with it.

Bad kozmo, Bad!!



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:22 PM
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reply to post by Kali74
 





I am also a Libertarian but I'm on the Left side where as you are a Right Libertarian.


Then still a lefist as a libertarian is:



And



Might as well just drop the 'libertarian' part



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by sdcigarpig
reply to post by SaturnFX
 

But the difference in what is shown, is very large. First, the pic you showed, clearly states that it is supported by the Tea Party Patriots. There is no question as to the group in question and ultimately is a lot more believable than a picture of a piece of paper with no mention of Tea Party on it.

Any one can claim to be a member of a group, but to do something in a groups name, especially a political group, usually they like to announce such, rather than do such in the dark.

So if there can be something that is linking to the Tea Party group, it can be said that it is suspect at best. Here say is not permissible in a court of law, and if you are going to condemn or accuse a group of wrong doing, at least give them the same courtesy as if they were sitting in a court.

But beyond that, the question that should be first and foremost, is how did who ever printed this, put out private information and what else was compromised?

I think that the violation of private information should be more of concern for everyone than it being this or that political affiliation.

I don't know the legalities of it. Is disabilities, snap, and other recievers private or public domain?
I know I can go down right now and find out the salary of any government employee, a government program may fall within that public domain knowledge also.
Its no different than anything else the gov has lists for that in some way receive government assistance or other...such as felon records and stuff.

And its not illegal to spread public info records..after all, its public.

But again, not brushed up on the legalities of it. I just assumed it was all legal to begin with.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


That is nice and all, but there is still no tie to the Tea Party. Only what a blogger decided to try to tie it to.

Come on man, you are better then this.

You want to work on implied assumptions. I will work with the facts of this instance.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by neo96
 


People need to stop trying to hijack certain portions of groups.

You are either a Libertarian, or you are not. This is very simple and black and white in nature.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by macman
reply to post by neo96
 


People need to stop trying to hijack certain portions of groups.

You are either a Libertarian, or you are not. This is very simple and black and white in nature.


I honestly don't know what I am anymore.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by macman
reply to post by SaturnFX
 


That is nice and all, but there is still no tie to the Tea Party. Only what a blogger decided to try to tie it to.

Come on man, you are better then this.

You want to work on implied assumptions. I will work with the facts of this instance.


No
Teapartypatriots.org is not som random blog:
The WiKi


Tea Party Patriots is an American political organization that promotes "fiscally responsible" activism as part of the Tea Party movement. Its mission is "to attract, educate, organize, and mobilize our fellow citizens to secure public policy consistent with our three core values of Fiscal Responsibility, Constitutionally Limited Government and Free Markets."[1] The group is a strong opponent of excess government spending and debt.[2]

In 2010, the group reportedly included over 2,200 local chapters,[3] as well as an online community of 115,311 members (estimated at 63% male, 31% female, 6% unspecified).[4]

2200 chapters is not some guys blog

The organization was founded by Jenny Beth Martin, Mark Meckler, and Amy Kremer in March 2009.[5]

Tea Party Patriots was a co-sponsor of the 9/12 March on Washington,[6] but refused to participate in the National Tea Party Convention.[7] Tea Party Patriots is most notable for organizing citizen opposition at the healthcare town hall meetings of 2009,[8] as well as various other anti-government run health care protests.[9]

In September 2010 the group announced it had received a $1,000,000 donation from an anonymous donor.[10] The money was distributed to its affiliated groups and must be spent by Election Day, though it could not be used to directly support any candidate.[10]

In 2012, the group along with the Southern Republican Leadership Conference organized a presidential debate that aired on CNN.

This is not some random website by a redneck with 30 bucks and a godaddy account, this is the nerve center of the tea party, and if you do a bit of poking around, you will see how the stance is simple...farm bill (corporate welfare) is great, just remove the minor food assistance program and all is good.

This is not a kneejerk posting of defending (something). This is pointing at the giant flags of peculiar stances the tea party takes as a -whole united stance- amongst them and asking why
and also how this sign is not some wildly out of left field thing for them and their like to do. I refer you to a few posts above with seabag basically saying its a good idea.
Whom no doubt identifies himself as a tea party person.

Common sense has to eventually come into play here.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:43 PM
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Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Kali74
 




Most liberals are just as unhappy with the policies that keep getting enacted as you are, yet you don't stop in your diatribe of filthy liberals long enough to consider that.

Of course we’re all unhappy! Liberal (left wing) policies don’t work. We told you so!! Maybe if more people embraced the tough action advocated in the OP’s letter we’d make some progress! Maybe it’s time we start embarrassing the freeloaders and prosecuting the crooks; maybe then we’d get somewhere!! Of course you still won’t like the end result because we’re obviously always going to have capitalism.




My filthy policies? Why is it that none (besides a scarce 2 or 3) of you right wingers on ATS can be civil?

Well, I know you don’t make policy so you’re not to blame! And I’m glad you consider me among the scarce 2 or 3 RIGHT WINGERS with acceptable table manners.




Nice to see you bothered to read the link I gave you.

I specifically said right wingers on ATS and you aren't part of the besides group. I'll leave with this question as there's not really a point in discussing much with you since the burden is always on me to prove/disprove and then you don't bother to read anything I provide just to attack me at a later date with more of the same, it's a treadmill and I'm stepping off, I'm not here for your entertainment... if Liberals aren't happy with Democrats, are Democrats really enacting much in the way of Liberal Policy? ...and if Conservatives aren't happy with Republicans it's an automatic given that they aren't really Conservatives.

During the height of the Occupy protests you and your fellows pounced on every piece of mudslinging you could get your eyes on, it couldn't come fast enough... didn't matter that most of it was minus any proof, didn't matter when I posted proof a claim was false, it was always but that's how they are, you're judged by the company you keep blah blah blah. And here I come in two threads in two days defending the Tea Party and one person...one acknowledged that (it's not why I did it, I did it because I believe in honesty and truth above all else), but still... my point is that you still attack me. You and your fellows still see me as dirt, a filthy leftist, a piece of dung for you to swarm on.

We are both human 1st and American 2nd so in that regard I will always have your back, I will always fight for your Liberty and I always respect your point of view even though I disagree with it. I don't expect thanks just not a kick in teeth either.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by macman
You want to work on implied assumptions. I will work with the facts of this instance.


ok, I think this is where we are not communicating. getting lost in our own examples maybe.

I am not saying that the pic in the OPs is definitely from the tea party. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I am simply saying that the pic in the ops is a fair representation of the general insanity the tea party has on the issues of the food stamp / farm bill disconnect.

Fiscal responsibility would suggest leaving the assistance program up (after all 100% of that goes right back into the local economy, which stimulates growth and enterprise), but do a very tough investigation on the gigantic comic sized checks the mega corporation farm industries get from that same bill.

the tea party is up in arms about food stamps, but gives a thumbs up when the burger king gets another bag of gold from the government so to speak.

So, the picture..regardless of its source, can stimulate a very good conversation on the actual issue with the leeches of society...and no, the leeches aren't the guy down the street eating cheetoes...its the superfarms that are making outstanding profits getting welfare checks.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
Hasty generalization my arse.
You didn't follow the links, did you..You seen a name you didn't like, found a random sentence that could be considered a generalization, and just went with it.

Bad kozmo, Bad!!


LOL! NO... SaturnFX BAD!

Hasty Generalization

One cannot take the words or actions of a single individual and use it as evidence to support a broad claim. That is what you did - took a snippet from an anonymous post on a "Tea Party" website and used it to demonstrate that ALL "Tea Party" members are uneducated.

To be fair, I consider myself a "Tea Partier" - although no official political party exists by that name. As I stated before, it is a movement - one that advocates for smaller government, less government interference in people's lives, less global interference etc... How are those principles bad things???

Now, in agreement, EVERY political faction has its bad apples. Prove me wrong! However, when it is one or a minority, then you cannot use incidents of bad behavior to paint the entire group. When I ciriticize Liberals, I do so based on their universal belief in MORE government, more regulation, more taxation, more government programs etc... I criticize on the principles and merits. Calling liberals a "Bunch of drug induced hippies" would be a hasty generalization. Follow my logic: All hippies are Liberals but NOT all liberals are hippies.

Additionally, this is in conjunction with an Association Fallacy and a Non Sequitur fallacy.

Make sense?



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX

Did the tea party write that specific note?
You know what...even if they didn't, they have in every way possible through their stances, their complete absurdly misunderstanding of the economics behind it all, and being a zombie.


What evidence? There is none!

Ultra Liberals: "Evidence, we dont need no stinking evidence"



Ultra Liberals: "We make things up"


edit on 12-8-2013 by burntheships because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


What proof is there that the letter came from a Tea Party group or member.

Very simple.


I understand your ideology and your stance.

Proof is proof, up is up and down is down.


There is either actual proof of, or made-up assumptions.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:45 PM
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Originally posted by neo96

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by neo96
 


People need to stop trying to hijack certain portions of groups.

You are either a Libertarian, or you are not. This is very simple and black and white in nature.


I honestly don't know what I am anymore.



I know what I am. The problem I have is there is no party that truly represents me. I guess you can’t have everything you want. It’s just too bad there are so many people who don’t understand that HALF OF THE COUNTRY on the government dole is a BAD THING and finding a job to support your family is a personal responsibility not a government mandate.

Most importantly, I’m not going to let idiots from any party or political persuasion hijack words that mean something to me and turn them into a four letter buzz words used to attack my character (words such as patriot, conservative, veteran, Tea Party, values, faith, etc). Those words have honorable meaning and aren’t to be distorted or redefined. When they are, expect some choice words in return. I would list them but they will be sensored by mods!



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


So, no real proof, only circumstantial evidence based on hearsay and maybes.

Come on man. You of all people of the left leaning persuasion know that I am going to continue to drill down to what is black or white in this.



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by muse7


Link

It seems that the Tea Party "patriots" have hit a new low, they are now going around neighborhoods posting lists on intersections of people on disability, food stamps and other welfare services. Folks, this is not how you save a nation.

We're not going to save this country by shaming and humiliating our fellow citizens. We're not going to save this nation by letting our poor starve and go without basic medical care. The people that chose to focus on these issues and ignore the larger ones are in my opinion ignorant. I'm not saying that we don't have people that abuse the system. What I'm getting at is, that we spend close to $900 BILLION in national defense, and god knows how much more money we send to other countries in foreign aid. Why aren't these so called "patriots" posting lists on intersections about which countries receive the most foreign aid? Or which defense contractor has the biggest contract from the federal government?

This public shaming and humiliation will only lead us on a slippery slope.

It kind of reminds me of this:



The poster reads: "This person suffering from hereditary defects costs the community 60,000 Reichsmark during his lifetime. Fellow German, that is your money, too"

Wikipedia



I am not saying this is right.. but wasn't there a campaign going on not to long ago to post a list of gun owners publicly in an attempt to shame them or intimidate them??

where owning a gun is legal....... disability fraud is something that should be exposed as it affects everyone around you. there is only shame in receiving disability or welfare if that is your lifestyle and not an aid till you are back on your feet. (of if you really are not disabled.)

Disability and welfare fraud is something that affects the community deeply. It is okay to help those who need help but it is not okay for people to exploit the system simply because they are lazy.

I identifying them to the public will do a few things. Flush out those who are committing fraud, and to put those who need help in the spot light. If i knew someone in my neighborhood was unemployed I would have payed him a few bucks to mow my lawn when i was on vacation and i would tip him off to potential jobs he/she can apply for from my contacts.

when it comes to disabled people... when i was younger i used to make service calls. A man i worked with had some malpractice occur to him during an operation and he lost his leg. Instead of him getting fired or going on disability we all in the work group helped him out till he got used to working with a prosthetic leg. Even today he is still helped when he gets into a situation where his disability impedes him from doing his work.. but our work group "commmunity" helps him out. Instead of putting him on disability. for many years many of us would even volunteer to help him do his yard work till he was able to do it himself. I think if government stayed out of things, things like this would be more common. I don't work in that work group anymore and I occasionally see him out and about working. He is a disabled man that kept his job because his community NOT GOVERNMENT watched out for him.

there is not much communication between people anymore to allow people to work together to help each other. There are too many individuals and no communities. In a community you help one another.

In this day and age people feel alone... with no help at all... so they look to government.. if we were able to look to each other for help and be open with one another.. maybe we wouldn't need government to get involved with the problems of individuals.. as the community they live in would take care of that.







edit on 12-8-2013 by votan because: (no reason given)

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edit on 12-8-2013 by votan because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-8-2013 by votan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 12 2013 @ 03:50 PM
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Originally posted by kozmo

Originally posted by Indigo5
reply to post by muse7
 


....and Ben Franklin never said anything of the sort.

It was first MISS-Atributed to Franklen in 1988...

Later in 2000 it was MISS-Attributed to Alexander Tytler...a Scottish writer.

BUT...there are NO SOURCES showing the qoute linked to anyone before 1988...

It was political propaganda...manufactured for just the purpose it is used for.


Yeah, you're going to need to provide sources for that claim. 30 minutes of "Googling" has brought up nothing to support your claim.



Exhausting...Geez..You think you might have researched some?



Checking Google news,
Google scholar and Google Books for "they can vote themselves money",
I could find no attributions to Franklin earlier than 1988.

By contrast, "time is money" is attributed to Franklin as early as 1850.[3]--Nowa123 04:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC) Wikiquote has a similar quote attributed to Alexander Fraser Tytler: 'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.' -- Traal 18:22, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

en.wikiquote.org...:Benjamin_Franklin

And here


Misattributed

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.

The earliest known attribution of this quote was December 9, 1951, in what appears to be an op-ed piece in The Daily Oklahoman under the byline Elmer T. Peterson, Elmer T. Peterson (9 December 1951).

"This is the Hard Core of Freedom". Daily Oklahoman: p. 12A..

The quote has not been found in Tytler's work.

It has also been attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville.

There are many variants circulating with various permutations of majority, voters, citizens, or public. Ronald Reagan is known to have used this in speeches, as reported in Loren Collins, "The Truth About Tytler":
Other variants:
The American Republic will endure until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.

This quote sometimes appears joined with the above one, most notably as part of a longer piece which began circulating on the Internet shortly after the 2000 U.S. Presidential Election ("The Fall of the Athenian Republic," Urban Legends Reference Pages):

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.

en.wikiquote.org...

And here on Snopes
www.snopes.com...

And here...
www.lorencollins.net...

And here at Truth or Fiction...


The Truth
This quote has been circulating on the Internet for quite a while.

We have not found any documentation of it beyond the past ten years.

Some versions say its author is a man named Tyler, but It is most often attributed to Sir Alex Fraser Tytler.
Tytler is real. He was a Scottish jurist, historian, and Edinburgh University professor.

We can find evidence that he wrote only one book titled "Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century" published in 1837 by Hilliard, Gray and Company in Boston.

www.truthorfiction.com...

PSST...For all your barking, you didn't provide any links???




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