"My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

Originally posted by Akragon
Jesus was pushed to the point where even he lost all hope...
Goes to show that he was in fact human... not God in the flesh.

I disagree. He said that to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.
But we'll know for sure when we die. Then we can ask Him.

reply to post by logical7

. . . if a person still fails and repents again till its sincere.

What good is "true sincerity" to the person you are continually wrongdoing?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by logical7

 

. . . if a person still fails and repents again till its sincere.

What good is "true sincerity" to the person you are continually wrongdoing?

are you implying that God would be angry at a truly sincere person for trying to master himself?

reply to post by logical7

are you implying that God would be angry at a truly sincere person for trying to master himself?

I am implying that you are describing a self-centered system that I don't see God as having created.
It seems that it is designed for a person to feel good about his own situation despite whatever suffering the person is causing for others.
God cares about everyone, and that means in this life where everyone is living, so He did not design a system that is only concerned about what might happen to an individual in a supposed afterlife.
The solution is the righteousness of Christ and its being granted to people in a divine way, so people can act righteously by spiritual assistance now, rather than at some future point if a person ever manages to "master himself".

reply to post by jmdewey60



so no christian harms any other human?

how is your proposed belief true? I don't see it working..

reply to post by logical7

so no christian harms any other human?

Not real Christians.

how is your proposed belief true? I don't see it working..

A lot of satanists and luciferians hide their true identities by pretending to be Christians.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by logical7

 

so no christian harms any other human?

Not real Christians.

how is your proposed belief true? I don't see it working..

A lot of satanists and luciferians hide their true identities by pretending to be Christians.

How about making it Real God conscious people don't harm others and not just real christians?

So merely claiming to be christian is not enough as i had said before.
There is nothing special that you are saying except your belief that it has to be only a certain way because paul and the church said so..

I don't think this discussion is going anywhere because you are passively just stressing a religious belief that you hold and nothing intellectual or any reasons.

reply to post by logical7

How about making it Real God conscious people don't harm others and not just real christians?

You make it sound as if a person can just get into the right frame of mind, they can be as righteous as anyone needs to be.
Jesus said, "Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees . . . "

So merely claiming to be christian is not enough as i had said before.
There is nothing special that you are saying except your belief that it has to be only a certain way because paul and the church said so..

I think that you are ignoring the spiritual lessons of Jesus especially in the Gospel of John.

reply to post by jmdewey60

You make it sound as if a person can just get into the right frame of mind, they can be as righteous as anyone needs to be. Jesus said, "Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees . . . "

they need to follow the law. How can anyone exceed the Pharisees when they followed the law. The problem they had was in the hearts. So to exceed them one much have a sincere heart and follow The Law.
The obedience to God teaches the required righteousness, if one can't even give up pork, how can one expect to stop oneself from a wrong that is selfishly profitable.

I think that you are ignoring the
spiritual lessons of Jesus especially in
the Gospel of John.

gospel of john? Hmm.. Tell me who is the author of it?
Why Jesus pbuh appears more divine and powerful than in say Mark?
Why he says something completely different on the cross in john?

28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that
the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I
thirst. 29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge
with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop,
and put it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is
finished: and he bowed his head,
and gave up the ghost.

a more in control image of Jesus pbuh!
A person would have to fool himself if he does not want to see that the story has been altered/fictionalised to fit and support an already prevalent belief.

This to me, is being way over analyzed. Jesus was dying, and He knew that this was His mission, but He was in tremendous pain. It is not a slap to His divinity to acknowledge that He was also Human, and at the very weakest point in His mission. He was forsaken. He had to be or else He couldn't have died. All of Heaven was probably ready to rush to His defense, but the Father had to hold them still so that the plan could be completed. That Jesus asked why is a testimony of His great faith, that even though He could have taken Himself off the cross, He didn't. He submitted Himself to the Fathers will, even though He had indeed, been forsaken. That is the greatness of that moment.

reply to post by logical7

. . . if one can't even give up pork, how can one expect to stop oneself from a wrong that is selfishly profitable.

Trying to follow worthless laws does not make you a better person.

A person would have to fool himself if he does not want to see that the story has been altered/fictionalised to fit and support an already prevalent belief.

How do you know one version is better than another?
You seem to be rejecting whatever says that Jesus is anything other than an ordinary person, or that says that people need a complete change that can only come through the person of Jesus.

reply to post by jmdewey60


the discussion is just getting boring..
I am not a christian to agree with you or get ecstatic when you mention how Jesus pbuh is the only way etc etc.
There is nothing worthy to discuss.
My points stand that if God seperated away from Jesus pbuh making him cry out "my God, my God.."
then God did not take the Sins, it was a complete human Jesus pbuh on the cross.
In other words, when (assuming) Jesus pbuh "died" with sins of the world, he was a human and so the christian narrative crumbles down upon itself.
Gospel of John tries to correct it by making Jesus pbuh say "it is finished"(making him appear willing and divine) and avoiding the explanation for "my God, my God.."

so no matter what really happened, it can be only one way and so the other gospel is altered. You decide which gospel would you like it to be. Logically Mark is closer to the event while John is written even after the letters of Paul so John is more likely the altered one and so the theology derived from it cannot be blamed upon the innocent Jesus pbuh. He is free of whatever is written after his ascension even if the claim is that it is in his name, guidance whatever..

reply to post by logical7

My points stand that if God separated away from Jesus pbuh making him cry out "my God, my God.."
then God did not take the Sins, it was a complete human Jesus pbuh on the cross.
In other words, when (assuming) Jesus pbuh "died" with sins of the world, he was a human and so the christian narrative crumbles down upon itself.

You are arguing with the wrong person about that, where I am not saying that God turned His back on Jesus. I am saying the opposite, that Jesus' prayer was answered 36 hours later by being raised from the dead.
If you look at the gospel of John where John the Baptist says "behold the lamb who takes away the sins of the world", that is a mistranslation. The word normally translated in the English as "lamb" means really "sheep", and you see the same word in the Greek Old Testament in Isaiah 56 the so-called Suffering Servant scene, where it says "as the sheep is silent before its shearer".
The word normally translated in the English as "take away" in the Greek really means to "lift up", which goes along with the Suffering Servant scene, where the servant, though he is counted among the sinners, is lifted up to a high position.
And so you see a re-playing of that scene in the crucifiction and resurrection and ascension of Jesus, not "paying" for sins, but lifting up the sinners, who we are all members of one way or another.

reply to post by logical7

Gospel of John tries to correct it by making Jesus pbuh say "it is finished"(making him appear willing and divine) and avoiding the explanation for "my God, my God.."

so no matter what really happened, it can be only one way and so the other gospel is altered.

The Gospel of John admits that it does not include everything that Jesus said.
It includes what the writer thought was important to make whatever point that he wanted to make.
So those other things in the other versions are not excluded.
The writer would have know about pre-existing versions so did not see it necessary to go over things already well covered.

Logically Mark is closer to the event while John is written even after the letters of Paul so John is more likely the altered one . . .

John would have been concerned with theological questions that came up after the other gospels had been in circulation.

reply to post by FlyersFan

I disagree. He said that to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.

I don't see why he would be concerned about fulfilling prophecy in the state he was in...

And technically his speaking would ruin Isaiah's prophecy

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

I disagree. He said that to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah.

I don't see why he would be concerned about fulfilling prophecy in the state he was in...

And technically his speaking would ruin Isaiah's prophecy

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy. Every moment of His life was about fulfilling prophecy.

But, he did so quietly. He said very little in his defense. He did say a few words to Pilate, but He didn't attempt to defend himself or explain Himself once they took Him. It's splitting hairs to argue over the amount of talking He had to do to violate the prophecy. If He had boasted of His power, brought down the power of Heaven on the Temple to save Himself, or worse, cried like a baby begging for them not to kill Him, then the prophecy would have been violated. But a few words, expressed in extreme torment? Even a lamb will bleat a few times before slaughter. Give our Lord the same respect.