India Needs A Huge Injection Of Feminism - And It Will Happen.

Originally posted by therationalist

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by therationalist
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

have you ever lived in india????

Do i have to live in a place before i can discuss its politics/social issues?

yes.... until you live there especially as a man, you won't be able to get the true picture....

So i guess i cant comment on any american issues then?

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by therationalist

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by therationalist
reply to post by SearchLightsInc

 

have you ever lived in india????

Do i have to live in a place before i can discuss its politics/social issues?

yes.... until you live there especially as a man, you won't be able to get the true picture....

So i guess i cant comment on any american issues then?

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

Originally posted by InTheLight


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

Apparently not!

"Especially as a man"

reply to post by InstantRemedy

Originally posted by InstantRemedy
Drafting is necessery to maintain an army at times whether you and I like it or not. The problematic factor is war and that is a completely different subject.

Drafting is far out-dated and has no use in modern western society. If people want to join the army, they will, they shouldn’t be forced. How you get The draft and War as two completely diferent subjects is laughable – They go hand in hand.

I know this might be hard for you to comprehend but hold on to your seat;
Personally I do not want to see women in comabant roles because as I see it they are not fitting for it. Of course there are select few percentage that do, but those women have physical attributes similar to men, which is rare. What bothers me is the notion that whenever a man says something about sex equality in draft it's automatically dismissed with a range of excuses. Your's happens to be "it's backwards and the only solution is to abolish draft"
Unfortunately abolishing the draft is unrealistic so that makes your opinion on it pretty much that equality in draft is "backwards", which bothered me. The notion of equal among the sexes when it comes to draft is not backwards.

Its not so backwards when I consider the draft sexist and a direct threat to any american man. Its clear to see you support the idea of drafting men against their will and god forbid, sending them out to battlefields thousands of miles away from their homeland to die protecting the interests of big business. War these days isnt always about the physical aspect of it and this means women could easily be factored into the killing machine – But yes, im against that to, because I dont believe anyone should be forced to partake in war.

I am interested to hear why you think the draft cant be abolished though.

The idea of WAR, of people fighting due to their government's feuds may be backwards, but the draft itself or equality of sexes in it is not.

*In your opinion, which isnt fact.

Women used to, in the past contribute to socially logical ideas like how women should obviously vote etc. Nowdays women use the term Feminism in any way that fits them, hence why I call it new-age Feminism.

So would you agree that India need's grass roots feminism to lessen the plight of women in that region of the world? I think I know the answer already

I see you're still not quite getting the part where I laugh about how you take a strong position on men who complain "EG; No one likes a whiner.". I don't even think I have to remind you who does the most of the whining, online and offline when it comes to sexual inequality in their minds.

You're right, women are always kicking up a fuss about sexual inequality, which makes sense because women are still treated abhorrently on the basis of their gender I.E India. Am I complaining on behalf of them? No, im creating a discussion on ATS on how the country may resolve its many social issues, myself personally feeling that feminism would do women over there a lot of good.

Hell, pretty much all the Feminist crowd do nowdays is whine and moan, specifically on Tumblr which turned to their HQ more or less.

Why on earth would you follow feminist blogs on tumblr?

When something is indeed being done, it's some lunacy in the form of dressing up in weird ways to try and get a point across, or undressing in a church. So with all due respect you're at an awful position to even think of telling men to 'put up or shut up' - or, 'nobody likes a whiner' because easily that attitude will bite you in the behind, and we all know what accusation you will use afterwards. This alone speaks volumes about the hypocrisy among nowday's "Feminists".

Suppose I should make myself clear once again. Im not a feminist, I support equality. Ive never protested on feminist/women's issues, read feminist literature, followed feminist blogs or subscribed to people who advocate feminism on youtube. What I find incredibly laughable is that I cant be positive about a movement without being labelled as someone who is a full part of that agenda. I understand why you and label me as such, it makes it easier for you to dismiss the points I raise and never really have to think in depth about anything ive said. Some people obviously arent here to Deny ignorance or see a bigger picture

reply to post by InstantRemedy

If some chick would justifiably complain that all her male co-workers are paid more to do the exact job she makes, only so her male boss would dismiss it and say "Eh shut it, I hate whining.. You feel something's wrong hun? Go do something 'bout it" - would you consider it an appropriate approach by her boss? If not, obviously, why use such approach yourself? Especially when you are pretty much doing the whining.

Yano again, I make a thread about how India needs feminism and we get talking about feminism in america. Cant people stay on topic in this thread?

Anyway, some good examples are,
Women being declined employment in a specific area -> resulting in shouts of X company is sexist and needs Feminism (which is why some companies hire women over men for some jobs only so they'd be considered as progressive).

American example.

Women being fired -> same story.
Man gets promoted before some women do -> it has to be sexism. let's yell as hard as we can about how this field of work needs Feminism.
Woman clearly unfitting to be a mother and husband gets child custody after divorce -> the court system is obviously flawed and Feminism must be injected.

American example.

Just a single popular case I had in mind - Adria Richards' story about how she got riled about about a joke which she herself deemed to be sexist, got two people fired from their job, forgot that her job required her to do the exact opposite; to co-relate between people of that field, gets fired by her company, litterally hordes of angry Feminist sending death threads via Twitter and Facebook to her company for being sexist and firing her. Headlines to this day are "Adria Richards fired for standing up to women!!!11!1!".

Another american example? My god, were talking about Indian women's need for equality here.

Thanks for the personal insult.

My apologies, it was in poor taste to call you narrow minded.

I assure you I know plenty about the original Feminist movement that made a change and the original role figures in it and their ideals. Nowdays unfortunately as I said, Feminism is thrown around whenever a woman gets dumped. And you're right, all I hear nowdays is the extreme lunatic side of it but rest assured I do know what true Feminism and true equality stand for.

Considering you know so much about the original grass roots movement, do you think Indian women would benefit from its implementation into their society?

First off, India has no less social problems than the good ole US, so let's just get this off the table first.

I think both countries have a vast amount of social issues yet they are not one and the same. This is a country that pressures women to seek abortions because they know the mother is carrying a girl. Couldnt honestly agree with you if you said america had the same problem.

Second, what can be done to reduce the harm done to women in India is a stronger presence of law enforcement and harsher punishments for rapists etc.

Problem being here that the authorities are often reported to not take the issues very serious and often convince the victim to forget about it and move on with their lives.

Forcefully injecting Feminist ideologies will do absolute squat, just as they have been doing globally (again I am talking about the new type of Feminism that just whines at every little thing, not the original movement that contributed much to society).

Think ive said before in this thread that feminism (Along with other social movements) will naturally occur and take its course as the country economically develops. I firmly believe that feminism will rightfully re-enforce the idea that women are human being's and deserve to be recognised as have equal worth to men.

Enlighten me, why wouldn't feminism work?

It wouldn't work because it has nothing to change.

Are you serious? Did you even read the OP?

reply to post by InstantRemedy

Rape is already against the law, and thinking criminals who already don't obey the law will obey any kind of Feminist, new age Feminism, or gender equality ethical rules is absurd.

I didnt even mention rape in my OP so im not sure why you're defending that. Nothing needs to change, not even the acid attacks on girls/women who want a divorce or are ignoring boys that want to talk to them? That's just fine and dandy?

How about you enlighten me, how exactly would feminism stop people from raping tourist girls on trains more than a heavier presence of law enforcement officers?

As ive said ive not mentioned rape in my OP so that's one issue I dont have to address in this thread.

When someone has self-respect, the people around them come to respect that person to. With this in mind, when you live in a society that does not respect certain members of it, discrimination occurs.
Clearly, india coming bottom of the UN's list of countries in regards to women's rights is a big sign that something is a miss. In a country that is aborting potential human beings because they wont possess a penis is absured. Throwing acid across women's faces to take away their only REAL value (So that they are shamed and no one will marry them etc) is downright cruel.

Grass roots feminism would bring the female sex together and collectively they would make a statement to the Indian culture that said “We are valuable” Feminism would teach women to respect themselves and not adhere to harsh patriarchal culture's that care's not a jot about their plight. More importantly it would help women stand together under one banner and support each other in times of change. More than likely centre's would be set up to help women who have become victims of wife beating husbands, left destitute on the street by their in-laws after asking for a divorce, making sure they get justice should have been attacked in the most hurtful and brutal manner. Raising awareness and being politically active would push for social change so that the police had to take crimes more seriously and wouldn’t undermine women who do go to the authorities.
Teaching women to be independent from men is an all round win. They would be able to chase career opportunities and should they be successful, be respected by their peers, further increasing their worth in society. Eventually men (in theory) would begin to feel less threatened by women in general because they will start to see them as people who are not docile and stupid but human beings who actually contribute to the development of their country as a whole.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


SLI, if you permit me I would like to respond to your last 3 posts, all in good fun of course . And just as a caveat, I do speak from an American male's perspective.

Drafting is far out-dated and has no use in modern western society.

I would have to disagree with that because even though war is a regrettable business it is sometimes unavoidable and for the protection of a country against aggressors. For instance, when Nazi Germany invaded Poland which started WWII in Europe and a year later invaded France. During that time wouldn't you think that the draft was an important duty for all the Polish and French men to defend their families and their countries?

Also during the same time England instituted the National Service Armed Forces Act which imposed a liability to conscription of all men 18 to 41 years old and by 1942 the age for men was between 18 to 51 and women 20 to 30. This was all due to the escalating hostilities of Nazi Germany which cause England to go from a stance of basically non-conscription to the conscription of practically all able-bodied individuals.

In the US during the same time period, after Germany conquered Poland and France, Americans supported the return of conscription just like England.

One national survey found that 67% of respondents believed that a German-Italian victory would endanger the United States, and that 71% supported "the immediate adoption of compulsory military training for all young men".[20] Similarly, a November 1942 survey of American high-school students found that 69% favored compulsory postwar military training.

So both England and the United states, politically and socially for the most part, went from abandoning the draft after WWI to supporting it because of the escalating hostilities from Nazi Germany and their allies. By that time there was an alliance between Germany, Italy, and Japan as well as 3 or 4 lesser nations. Their stated goals for this alliance was as follows:

The Axis promoted the alliance as a part of a revolutionary process aimed at breaking the hegemony of plutocratic-capitalist Western powers and defending civilization from communism.

They wanted to conquer England, the United States, and all of western Europe. At the time nothing could have stopped this from happening except the conscription of millions of men and women to fight or aid in the war effort. No atomic weapons existed back then and it was a choice of either millions of men are forced to fight for their families, countries, and way of life or become the slaves of a tyrannical dictatorship. The draft was really the only way to preserve for half the world the freedom to exist the way they wanted to exist.

That was the last draft England had, but the US had one for the Vietnam War which was more of an unnecessary ideological war. That is the exception though.

Modern conscription, the massed military enlistment of national citizens, was devised during the French Revolution, to enable the Republic to defend itself from the attacks of European monarchies.

They said every Frenchman was a soldier and owed himself to the defense of the nation.

During the Civil War in the Unites States the Confederate states instituted a draft on April 16, 1862 and 3 months later the Union states instituted the draft in order to have a suitable army. The Union won the war and slavery was abolished.

So in almost every instance when the draft was utilized in the modern western world it was necessary and part of citizen's duty to safeguard their countries, families, and way of life.

Its not so backwards when I consider the draft sexist and a direct threat to any american man.

It was definitely a threat to men as drafts have always been accompanied by protests, violent reactions, draft dodging, etc... It is an evil but I would call it the lesser of two evils.

War these days isnt always about the physical aspect of it and this means women could easily be factored into the killing machine

Modern warfare is still about the physical aspect. We all live under the constant threat of nuclear annihilation. You are definitely correct on the new role women would play though. Instead of becoming nurses they could have more logistical/operations/technical military roles while men do the armed combat, as well as playing a large part in the propaganda machine by saying things like "If you guys don't want to go to war you must have a small frightened penis "

Im not a feminist, I support equality. Ive never protested on feminist/women's issues, read feminist literature, followed feminist blogs or subscribed to people who advocate feminism on youtube.

To be fair, the title of the thread implies you advocate for feminism in India. It is hard to imagine a situation where a woman...

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

advocates for feminism but does not call herself of feminist. That would be like me saying I'm not pro guns I just think all homeowners should own a gun. I do understand where you are coming from though. To label one's self in a certain way, like labeling yourself a feminist, invites all sort of political connotations and assumptions about one's identity, whereas just stating your beliefs/opinions as an individual is a different sort of thing.

Yano again, I make a thread about how India needs feminism and we get talking about feminism in america.

It is difficult for us not to view things from our own perspective. It really is very hard, although in my previous post I tried to include more diverse examples .

Grass roots feminism would bring the female sex together and collectively they would make a statement to the Indian culture that said “We are valuable” Feminism would teach women to respect themselves and not adhere to harsh patriarchal culture's that care's not a jot about their plight. More importantly it would help women stand together under one banner and support each other in times of change. More than likely centre's would be set up to help women who have become victims of wife beating husbands, left destitute on the street by their in-laws after asking for a divorce, making sure they get justice should have been attacked in the most hurtful and brutal manner. Raising awareness and being politically active would push for social change so that the police had to take crimes more seriously and wouldn’t undermine women who do go to the authorities.

Teaching women to be independent from men is an all round win. They would be able to chase career opportunities and should they be successful, be respected by their peers, further increasing their worth in society. Eventually men (in theory) would begin to feel less threatened by women in general because they will start to see them as people who are not docile and stupid but human beings who actually contribute to the development of their country as a whole.

Well done. Sounds good to me.

reply to post by djr33222


The God has made man and woman inter-dependent. Man needs woman and vice versa.

The structure of family is established by God's law itself.

I think it is the correct moral and social values that are needed to be taught to all people.

The solution is not that send all women to work. It will not remove bias, and it will create other problems like not taking care of children.

Women work very hard at home. There is a lot of work at home itself, if home is to be run efficiently.

Originally posted by GargIndia
reply to post by djr33222

 

The God has made man and woman inter-dependent. Man needs woman and vice versa.

The structure of family is established by God's law itself.

I think it is the correct moral and social values that are needed to be taught to all people.

The solution is not that send all women to work. It will not remove bias, and it will create other problems like not taking care of children.

Women work very hard at home. There is a lot of work at home itself, if home is to be run efficiently.

Indeed, woman's work is never done and the work performed by most women is out of love, which is not respected by some men. That's the problem.