India Needs A Huge Injection Of Feminism - And It Will Happen.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

Everything i posted in my OP should be brushed aside and we should concentrate on how we can help the men of india because they're obviously having their own set of problems. Perhaps when the murder rate for men goes down THEN we can give women a look in, yeah? You promise?

I see what you did there. They call that sarcasm I think...

No, I don't think Indian women should be marginalized and their problems are not of secondary importance to the problems of men.

It is just that, you know, I felt your OP and the two pages of responses agreeing with you were, well, looking at the situation from the viewpoint that only females can be victims of unprovoked violence and treated with cruelty. You are saying that uniquely feminine problems are more important then all those other problems they face as a society. When you say feminism should be installed in the region you are saying that their resources should be diverted into female-specific purposes, that public health initiatives and community leaders should all focus on women. That is not right, yet it is exactly the way feminism operates.

To me it seems like you want to save a few young girls from getting acid thrown in their faces while leaving a hundred young boys twisting in the wind.

You say things like,

It seems the more i learn about Indian culture the more i am shocked by their utter disrespect for the female gender.

Somehow you think Indian culture as a whole is about disrespecting women? I honestly can't fathom how you would come to that conclusion except by ignoring 99% of their culture to focus on 1%. Then you think it is a good idea to make that 1% the all-encompassing concern.

You don't have to devalue an entire culture or discount the lives of all men just to try and uplift some victimized women. You are acting like a spoiled kid who knocks over the entire chess board just because she lost a pawn. Like the kid on the playing field who, at the slightest act of unfairness, can't devise an intelligent strategy to win and so instead chooses to mock and piss on the whole game.

Lets completely forget women being forced to get married and suffering abuse at the hands of the family they've married into.
Lets forget that women are getting acid thrown on them because they didn't want to speak to a male. She'll be okay if she survives.
Lets forget about the women being pressured into having abortions because the family dont want her to have a girl. And also, lets forget all about girls being abandoned on the streets because they're to much of a burden.

I don't want to forget these people. I just don't think every instance of abuse towards women around the world justifies these extreme feelings you are having. All people suffer acts of violence yet you think women somehow deserve more attention. You say India is a unfair patriarchal culture yet 95% of all articles on crime are about women when women are only 21% of the victims.

And mostly men commit these violent crimes as opposed to women because they are bigger and stronger, not because they are innately more violent than women. Here in the US woman are equally as likely to perpetrate domestic violence on men as men are on women, and women are much more likely to be abusive towards children.

Here in the US women use this feminism thing as a tool to manipulate the courts into arresting and jailing innocent men by lying about domestic violence incidents (Iraq war vet lies about being beaten, gets arrested by video evidence), to steadily force men out of secondary education institutions with gender discriminatory policies (Women far outnumber men), and to silence all discourse on male issues (Feminists degrade and intimidate men at assembly)

Hi-jack my thread with your MRA movement for men in India, go ahead

I'm not part of any MRA movement and I am not jacking your thread. In this thread I am simply a dissident opinion.

Are they being denied education? Are they having acid thrown on them for trying to speak to a woman? Are they being divorced, kicked out of their house's and left destitute?

Not right now, but after feminist have their way with them this will surely be the case... just like it is in the US.

Seriously, hi-jack my thread and make it al about the struggles of men in India.

That is not my intention. Sorry if I came off that way.

Originally posted by InTheLight
India seems wrought with serious problems of all kinds and has to deal with an inactive government, so just trying to live each day seems to be the priority for most people there.

www.academia.edu...

edit on 12-8-2013 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)

That's a great article!

Generalizing "rape happens on Bus" and men "grab women boobs" everyday in India is like an Indian reading the Aurora theater shooting, and watching Jerry Springer and goes...

"Wow Americans do mass shooting everyday"

"British royalty inbreeds!"

There is no burning car in middle east right now, while bunch of protesters running around shouting "$#% america"


Sure it happens, just like anything else that happens in other country, just not as common. This is just exaggerated sensationalism.

This is not Indian, but i would like to post it anyways!


"Omg we must save them! men in western countries make women walk with skimpy cloths and sexualize them!, we must show them how to cover themselves properly!"

While we are at it!

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by eletheia

 

Lmao, ok. I did live in India for 5 yrs, and still has friends who are Indian, since im in the age where my friends are usually getting married i know the whole system as well.

I rather see what my friends and my eyes told me over some biased articles.

That article is outdated as hell, and did you even read what i wrote? i didn't say caste system disappeared, it still exists in parts of india..and current Hinduism is a mix of bunch of religion and cultures

Don't forget its a 1 billion population.











Well, well. well I bow to your superior knowledge of the Indian continent. However I think

my experience is of equal value.


My ancestors first went to India in the late 1700's. A few members took part in the 'Grand

Trigonometrical and Topographical survey of India which was set up in 1861. My Great

grand father was Surgeon in medical charge of HH the Nizam of Hyderabad's 4th Infantry,

and House Hold Surgeon at the Afzul Gunj Hospital in Hyderabad. One of his brothers

was 'Quarter Master' in the Nizam's Artillery, and was present on duty to the Nizam at

the Great Delhi Durbar.


I myself attended a school in Simla which was founded by Sir Henry Lawrence in 1847

to educate children of military personnel. After 1947 it was taken over by the Indian

Government as probably one of the best schools in India. (Google Sanawar)


As young children do I soaked up customs and spoke fluent Hindustani. At that time

it was Hindus and Muhammadans - I wasn't aware when it changed to Muslim but it is

now considered to be offensive, I am not intending to offend any one merely pointing out

some history.


Most of my family left India through out the 1950's. Since leaving I have been back

four times, and nothing seemed to have changed till the last time in 2006 when I

did see a change.

reply to post by eletheia


I lived in the Madras(Chennai), which is the Dravidian South capital. When you say Hindustani? do you mean.. Hindi(Indian)? or Urdu(Pakistani)?

Did you see any "evil treatment of women?" "everyday gang rape?" "everyday breast grabbing?" while you were there?

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by eletheia

 

I lived in the Madras(Chennai), which is the Dravidian South capital. When you say Hindustani? do you mean.. Hindi(Indian)? or Urdu(Pakistani)?

Did you see any "evil treatment of women?" "everyday gang rape?" "everyday breast grabbing?" while you were there?

My Grand mothers, mother came from Madras, and my grand mother spoke Urdu, as I

understand Urdu is spoken in south India. I am surprised that Urdu is spoken in Pakistan

as I always thought the language for there was 'Punjabi' or 'Pashto' and yes Hindi is

short for Hindustani.


I have not seen gang rape as I would not frequent certain areas which would be deemed

risky or unsafe. However I have seen bad, disrespectful behaviour towards women.

But then again as I said in an earlier post there doesn't appear to be a 'middle class'

only Rich, Poor and very Poor! The women of the rich, wives sisters and daughters

are well looked after. The birth of a baby daughter is only a tragedy for the poor.

reply to post by eletheia


Completely Agree, the poor suffers the most. I was speaking against the broader claim that it is happening country-wide and as a daily occurrence like some have posted.

Actually Madras(deep south) speaks 95% Tamil, Hindi is actually a 2nd language, not much Urdu tho, Urdu is actually NorthWest part of India, close to Pakistani side, like Punjab(Punjab has their own language as well) etc

Clash of cultures. Eventually it should subside. With globalization, its changing ever so slowly in many countries not just India. ME is the prime example though crime against women continue. I'm afraid Injecting Feminism is not the answer. Its rather injecting amendments and/or changes of understanding to the traditional role(s) in a family.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by eletheia

 

Completely Agree, the poor suffers the most. I was speaking against the broader claim that it is happening country-wide and as a daily occurrence like some have posted.

Actually Madras(deep south) speaks 95% Tamil, Hindi is actually a 2nd language, not much Urdu tho, Urdu is actually NorthWest part of India, close to Pakistani side, like Punjab(Punjab has their own language as well) etc

The rich lead very westernised lives, westernised clothes and even jeans. In general

they are totally impervious to the poor. They don't even see them sleeping on the streets

passing by in their cars.

Driving between any cities there are lots of tiny villages and I do believe that there is

much assault and more goes on there. They are badly lit (lack of electricity) and the police

are ineffectual anything like that is 'par for the course' to them, and as there are no cameras

they are the law, and firmly believe they are above it

When anything like the 'bus rape' happens you notice nothing seems to get done unless

it hits the 'world news'!!


# Ghandi's view was that poverty was a spiritual blessing that should be glorified and

extended to all!

# Nehru's was that poverty was a social evil that should be ended!

Two sides of the Indian coin?

Originally posted by djr33222

I see what you did there. They call that sarcasm I think...
No, I don't think Indian women should be marginalized and their problems are not of secondary importance to the problems of men.
It is just that, you know, I felt your OP and the two pages of responses agreeing with you were, well, looking at the situation from the viewpoint that only females can be victims of unprovoked violence and treated with cruelty.

Glad you picked up on the sarcasm there
The reason why you might get the impression that I only feel women can be victims of violence and cruelty is because this is a thread that is highlighting the plight of women in India. However, I not stated that men cannot be victims of violence and cruelty, you're just assuming that's what I think because ive made a thread that concentrates on women.

You are saying that uniquely feminine problems are more important then all those other problems they face as a society.

Ive never said that. I said India needs a huge injection of feminism judging by the way it treats its women. I never said “The top of India's priorities should be its treatment of women” Again, you are assuming.

When you say feminism should be installed in the region you are saying that their resources should be diverted into female-specific purposes, that public health initiatives and community leaders should all focus on women. That is not right, yet it is exactly the way feminism operates.

Firstly, I said that feminism would naturally occur to correct the balance and later on in the thread I said it would occur along with OTHER SOCIAL MOVEMENTS. Whether or not it is at the expense of regional resources I couldnt tell you. All I imagine is women kicking up a fuss and saying things need to change.

To me it seems like you want to save a few young girls from getting acid thrown in their faces while leaving a hundred young boys twisting in the wind.

You're absolutely right about me wanting to save people from having acid thrown on them, wrong about wanting me to see boys/men twisting in the wind. Assumptions again.

You say things like,

It seems the more i learn about Indian culture the more i am shocked by their utter disrespect for the female gender.

Somehow you think Indian culture as a whole is about disrespecting women? I honestly can't fathom how you would come to that conclusion except by ignoring 99% of their culture to focus on 1%. Then you think it is a good idea to make that 1% the all-encompassing concern.

Obviously my OP has failed to convince you that women are routinely disrespected and C'mon now, if it was only 1% of the population that had issues with its treatment of women India wouldnt have come BOTTOM of the list for its treatment of women – They finished BELOW Saudi Arabia for gods sake

You don't have to devalue an entire culture or discount the lives of all men just to try and uplift some victimized women.

Which is exactly why ive not done that.

You are acting like a spoiled kid who knocks over the entire chess board just because she lost a pawn. Like the kid on the playing field who, at the slightest act of unfairness, can't devise an intelligent strategy to win and so instead chooses to mock and piss on the whole game.

Easy to come to that conclusion about my character after you have assumed so much. Keep assuming, you might get something right soon.

I don't want to forget these people. I just don't think every instance of abuse towards women around the world justifies these extreme feelings you are having.

Extreme feelings? Ive made a thread on ATS about how india needs feminism, hardly getting out of hand now is it?

All people suffer acts of violence yet you think women somehow deserve more attention.

What's that? You're assuming things again!?

You say India is a unfair patriarchal culture yet 95% of all articles on crime are about women when women are only 21% of the victims.

I said “Patriarchal societies breed an imbalance of power, this will lead to the natural rise of feminism to even things out”

And mostly men commit these violent crimes as opposed to women because they are bigger and stronger, not because they are innately more violent than women. Here in the US woman are equally as likely to perpetrate domestic violence on men as men are on women, and women are much more likely to be abusive towards children.

Do you think Indian women are as likely as the US women to lay a finger on a man? You got stats for that?

reply to post by djr33222

Here in the US women use this feminism thing as a tool to manipulate the courts into arresting and jailing innocent men by lying about domestic violence incidents (Iraq war vet lies about being beaten, gets arrested by video evidence), to steadily force men out of secondary education institutions with gender discriminatory policies (Women far outnumber men), and to silence all discourse on male issues (Feminists degrade and intimidate men at assembly)

Like to remind you, my thread is about INDIA and its culture, not amerika. You hate american feminism so much? Make a thread about it, dont hi-jack mine.

I'm not part of any MRA movement and I am not jacking your thread. In this thread I am simply a dissident opinion.

You've pretty much dismissed the plight of women in india and instead talking about how the male population are badly done to. Hi-jacking the subject.

Not right now, but after feminist have their way with them this will surely be the case... just like it is in the US.

I think you're assuming things again. Can can you accurately predict the future?

Seriously, hi-jack my thread and make it al about the struggles of men in India.

That is not my intention. Sorry if I came off that way.

edit on 12-8-2013 by djr33222 because: (no reason given)

Gah, its alright. Im sorry if I sound super bitchy!

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

Glad you picked up on the sarcasm there

I have my moments

The reason why you might get the impression that I only feel women can be victims of violence and cruelty is because this is a thread that is highlighting the plight of women in India.

I wasn't talking about your personal feelings. I was more commenting on how society in general chooses to put special focus on the plight of females, everywhere, these days. This thread is only a tiny atom in that gigantic corpus that is concern over women's issues in the modern world. This network of information, especially articles appearing in major news mediums, behaves negatively - that is, for every article espousing concern about women there is one less article that can be devoted for men.

If, theoretically, only 1000 news articles can be published daily about gender issues 95% of those will be about the poor helpless women worldwide. And the dynamic is in fact negative because there is only so much "space" to either be devoted for one thing or another. Women have a gross advantage in terms of occupying this space.

I said India needs a huge injection of feminism judging by the way it treats its women.

I really think feminism would hurt Indian women and the entire social fabric over there. Empowerment is a better solution IMO, and I think empowerment and feminism are two very different things.

Firstly, I said that feminism would naturally occur to correct the balance and later on in the thread I said it would occur along with OTHER SOCIAL MOVEMENTS.

So you looked into your crystal ball and saw feminism would naturally occur to correct an imbalance...

Well, if that turns out to be true I can only hope those "other social movements" are anti-feminist movements.

Whether or not it is at the expense of regional resources I couldnt tell you.

If feminism does happen in India it will first and foremost attempt to divert scarce regional resources into woman-specific community ventures and public health initiatives. I see that in my crystal ball.

You're absolutely right about me wanting to save people from having acid thrown on them, wrong about wanting me to see boys/men twisting in the wind.

Once again, you said feminism should be installed. You did not say cost-effective interventions designed to improve both men and women's self-efficacy, self-esteem, actualization, and to help individuals form a holistic vision for their lives equipped with the tools needed to achieve those ends. That is a method that is egalitarian, free, and relies on the innate potential of individuals.

That is not feminism. Feminism is the allotment of scarce resources aimed at improving the status of women, promoting a lack of equality between the sexes, and uplifting women by knocking down their counterparts.

I know you don't see it that way but this is the reality. If you want to see all people live safer, more free and healthy lives you should forget about the fem. garbage.

Obviously my OP has failed to convince you that women are routinely disrespected

You have failed in that regard. You told me to show you stats so I will tell you the same thing. I already posted the crime statistics and women only account for 21% of cognizable violent crime in India.

Easy to come to that conclusion about my character after you have assumed so much. Keep assuming, you might get something right soon.

I would advise you to please put on your big girl pants because I could point out all the assumptions in your OP but that would take a long time and is not really the point of the discussion. You know what isn't an assumption, those statistics I included from the National Crime Records Bureau of India. Everything in your OP is conjecture, opinion, and gross assumptions.

Extreme feelings? Ive made a thread on ATS about how india needs feminism, hardly getting out of hand now is it?

Please don't be daft. We both know you post your opinions in all the threads on gender issues. I'm familiar with your position which IMO is of the more extreme variety.

What's that? You're assuming things again!?

Are you like a law school dropout or something???

I have my own opinions about how you feel about these issues despite this sole thread. I have read your posts in various other threads which informed these ideas I have about you which you keep saying are assumptions...

Yes they are assumptions, doesn't mean I'm wrong though. Why are you being so sensitive, firstly? Secondly, you are trying to pretend like your innermost feelings aren't in line with what I've been calling you out on. I can't prove your feelings one way or another if you don't explicitly state them, but I can sure call it as I see it.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc

Gah, its alright. Im sorry if I sound super bitchy!

All in good fun.

Like to remind you, my thread is about INDIA and its culture, not amerika. You hate american feminism so much? Make a thread about it, dont hi-jack mine.

I'm not jacking, I just have a different opinion than you. Why are you so threatened by people with different beliefs from your own? Or is that another assumption I am making...

I realize your thread is about India which is why I posted statistics about India. Everything I have posted is perfectly germane to the theme of this thread. You are simply insecure about your views and keeping your beliefs intact in the face of scrutiny. Or is that another assumption?

reply to post by djr33222


C'mon dj, you know that a greater percentage of women don't go to the authorities to complain of abuse because they are programmed from a young age to believe it's their fault and from the protest placards I have seen that Indian women make, they are being blamed because of how they dress. I would bet that most of the abused women in India don't seek assistance from the authorities or justice. As well, from what I've read about how the police and government officials don't bother following up on abuse cases towards women. When they do they require three male eye witnesses to a rape, so, I wouldn't lean on those stats to make your case.

Originally posted by InTheLight
reply to post by djr33222

 

C'mon dj, you know that a greater percentage of women don't go to the authorities to complain of abuse because they are programmed from a young age to believe it's their fault and from the protest placards I have seen that Indian women make, they are being blamed because of how they dress. I would bet that most of the abused women in India don't seek assistance from the authorities or justice. As well, from what I've read about how the police and government officials don't bother following up on abuse cases towards women. When they do they require three male eye witnesses to a rape, so, I wouldn't lean on those stats to make your case.

edit on 12-8-2013 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)

Sure. I know in Kenya the vast majority of women who have been raped know the perpetrator. They feel like since they know the person they shouldn't try to get them in trouble. Also, if women are sexually assaulted by their husbands they don't really consider it as such. In Kenya there is no doubt about it, women were getting raped and killed in the thousands after the 2008 election. I mean I could go on and on about disadvantaged women in Kenya and how their lives suck. I assume that their plight is somewhat similar to what Indian women experience.

It is strange though because if you try to treat these women like how you would treat women at a center for battered women in the west, or a group therapy treatment intervention for women with PTSD or substance abuse issues, they will not accept the same programming.

reply to post by InTheLight

When they do they require three male eye witnesses to a rape, so, I wouldn't lean on those stats to make your case.

Another ignorant person that thinks India is Middle East? No wonder these thread don't get a point across, people don't even know what country they are frkin discussing.

Looking at a flippin map. Different religion, different culture.

I cannot emphasis enough my praise for this op! The full freedom of woman in India and the entire globe may be the catalyst for the next paradigm shift in spiritual and material terms that may bring the world to some kind of sanity, or be that which may save the world.

But it will be a colossal challenge, for the patriarchal paradigm is holding onto itself like a mad dog holds on to a bone.

I think that the attitude of some of the posters in this thread is indicative of that dog holding on to a bone mentality

Though every society has its unique issues regarding woman’s rights. Certainly the west can be somewhat of an example of the lagging behind eastern societies, though in the west some of this freedom imo has gone too far.
Where in many cases the “ freedom” of woman in the west has lead to making woman sex objects and ironically often turns out to be worst than how woman are treated in the east including India. Moderation is called for here I think.

As well understanding that many of the eastern countries, that lag far behind the west in regards these issues, hasn’t had a secular “sexual liberation” as we have had in the west therefore patience and understanding should be the case, except of course for the extreme cases of the barbaric acts done towards woman that should be universally and ardently condemned and stopped by any and all means.

There should be no patience for violence of any kind towards woman, whether it is from anachronistic barbaric attitudes from cultural and historic habits or the pre-modern view of woman that some religion dictates.

reply to post by djr33222



Yes i do post my opinions on many of the gender themed threads and that's because there are a lot of ignorant posters on ATS who deny even the basic facts about women's oppression, even going as far to spread false information regarding how feminism killed the family unit without any evidence to back it up.

You have made alot of assumptions about my character that i clearly pointed out in my last two posts, they're quite ignorant to be fair. By your thinking, if i like the colour red, i must dislike blue. Because i want to talk about women's issue's in India, i must be ignorant or non caring about male perspective.

Your problem is very clear - You have a skewed definition of what feminism actually is. Or opinion, whatever you want to call it. That's why our post's clash so much. It's all fun and games telling me to put on my "big girl pants" but before you do, you might actually want to do some research and understand what moderate feminism preaches. It's good to know what you're talking about and actively opposing.

I love how you've even assumed im of a more "extreme" variety - The best bit being, im not even a feminist. I recognise inequality in society and i call it out. When people say to me "What about men and the courts system regarding custody battles? They're being unfairly treated" I agree, there is an inequality that need's to be corrected. "Only men can be drafted into the army" - Again, its another inequality that needs to be looked at. And in fairness, if men hate the draft so much - Get together and get it abolished, that's how things get done.

What annoys me more than anything is men blaming women for their problems. Many would rather rant on an internet forum, foaming at the mouth blaming women for their lack of happiness in life instead of putting on their big boy pants and taking responsibility for themselves. They say men are poorly treated, look at how the media portray's them, look at how weak and girly they've become! Yet those same posters strive so hard to preserve a fairy-tale 1950's value system that never really existed for the majority of people in the first place.

I challenge you Djr33222, in your own time, to make your own thread regarding the modern struggles of men either in the west, east or the entire world. I promise i will enter it will an open mind - Like i did with the thread on misandry. More than anything in the world i would like to understand why men are in such a huff and puff and doing sweet F.A about it.

If you tell me to "go research" it myself, well, that pretty much proves my point altogether.

Feminism is a fantasy of those desperate to control freedoms of those of higher ordered morality.

Feminism is a valiant attempt to bring the world back to balance