The state of the world today is the church's fault.

Originally posted by theRhenn
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

A "christian" countering his own religion? I dont think so. You've watered down the term quite a bit in your post.

A christian is more than someone who believes in Christ. It is someone taking up the cross and being CHRIST LIKE. That's hardly the case here.

You're taking scripture and arguing against it. How can you be a christian if you're calling the bible, the origin of your "faith" a lie?

That's like me saying "I'm not a racist, but all black people are criminals".

A christian asking his brothers/sisters in Christ to hold themselves accountable to the word THEY PROFESS TO KNOW & LOVE & TREASURE is NOT arguing against scripture. He is showing them a mirror, stating the obvious "something is very wrong" and trying to bring attention to it. Nothing more.

And I never said the bible is a lie, only our attitude towards what the bible SAYS.

the state of the world today is america's fault.

and that's a fact.

The state of the WORLD is the church's fault? You go on to say that this is because Christians aren't acting very Christlike. But hold up a second.

84 percent of the world population has faith; a third are Christian

2.2 billion Christians (32 percent of the world’s population).

So one third of the world's population is to blame for all of the world's problems? This is one of my biggest problems with Christianity. The arrogance that they are the most important people in the world. They only represent 1/3 of the world's population, yet you claim that because Christians are falling from their faith our world is going into the toilet. Now granted, I'm sure numbers could be down from ex-Christians leaving the religion, but most of those people were never Christians to begin with. There are still evil people manipulating others from these other faiths too.

God isn't punishing the world because 1/3 of the population act like greedy self-absorbed aholes. The state of the world today is the result of many different things. Hypocritical Christians are part of the problem but it is downright arrogant (and un-Christlike) to claim that it is all Christianity's fault.

Rather than playing the blame game, and trying to make it someone elses fault, people need to realize that they are responsible for their own actions.

The church can only influence you, if you allow it to, which then means, that any effects from this allowance, are to be blamed on the church, but really, it is you that allowed it.

If you allow yourself to be told what you can, or can not do, told how to live, then it appears that it is someone elses fault.

But this is only an illusion that you have created, because you cannot stand the idea of blaming yourself for the consequences of giving up your own power.

What we allow, persists. Only you have the power to change your life, and live in a way that best suits you. Only you are to blame for whatever it is that you feel is someone elses fault.

You are a powerful being of infinite consciousness, that creates your own reality based off the thoughts you decide to follow out of the present moment. You can choose to live by someone elses thoughts, or you can send out your own thoughts, and be the influence, instead of the influenced.

Are you a mirror? Or are you the reflection?

These are the words of the Amen

Holy toledo! I forgot about that one. Amen is Amun. Amun is the sumerian Anu, the heavenly father god of the sumerian trinity. He had 2 sons. One of his sons created humans, saved the noah figure from the flood, confused the langauge at Babel and a list of other biblical like things. The other son, who was the owner of this planet, hated the human creation, was constantly calling for humans to be killed in various ways and was constantly complaining about us on his planet to the heavenly divine council (he ordered the flood, for example). These texts predate the bible. So i'm going with the idea that the one that created us and saved noah, is jesus. and the one that hates us, and kills us or wants us killed at the drop of a hat, is the bad guy, the accuser.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

You said I didn't say the gates of hell are defensive.

I didn't' "say" that, now you have the immeasurable pleasure of taking your own advice and re-reading what I said. My, my you are a testy little one aren't you? Relax, this is just a simple dialogue. I already admitted I stopped reading the OP at the period of the sentence I originally copy/pasted.

You'll have to pardon my contempt. Let me explain myself for a brief second. You see, I expect attacks on the body of Christ from those outside if Christianity, after all you need to be fairly good-natured when toying with the human puppets of demons (hat tip The GUT), but what really gets under my skin is when Christians assume the role of accuser of the brethren.

edit on 8-8-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

"Accuser of the brethren" is another verse that some christians use as a bat to beat other christians to DEATH with. Am I to assume that you are calling me this term, or sharing this trait? You do realize who "the accuser" is right?

If i was one of his ilk (satan's) I wouldn't have posted this thread. What am I asking for? Accountability? Service? Lack of hypocrisy? Being more knowledgeable of the Word? How does this benefit satan? Didn't the prophets do the exact same thing I am doing? Asking their brothers/sisters to hold themselves accountable? And what happened to them? They were stoned, murdered for their faith/message.

I'm not surprised in the least that this appears to be happening. I guess i am surprised it's happening so soon.

Lastly, the bible says it's ok to judge, more importantly, it says it's NECESSARY, otherwise how can you discern from wolves in sheep's clothing. Jesus said "You will know them by their fruit" Judge not, lest ye be judged, is when you condemn someone to hell based on human understanding. That's not what I'm doing here, I'm just asking for ppl to judge their own heart, by their lack of action, nothing more. If that offends someone, I'm sorry you're offended, but I'm not going to apologize for what I've said.

Have a good one.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


i dunno if you could call it arrogant, since lenin only needed 10,000 revolutionaries to completely tank russia.

reply to post by Krazysh0t


When Christians were acting Christ-like, they brought Rome to it's knees. When they went WILLINGLY to the lions, ppl jumped out of their seats when they saw it AND JOINED THE CHRISTIANS. iirc, it was 7 romans, for every one christian martyred.

Christianity today no longer has that influence, least in America. But to deny that influence ever happened, well that's just disingenuous, don't you think?

schadenfreude

this is how i handle the situation, where it comes to other christians (or really anybody for that matter):

Love your neighbor as yourself.

That verse alone, covers a multitude of mistakes. How will they know us? By our love for each other (and for them).

Can't say you love someone and then condemn them to hell, especially since you don't know what God thinks about that particular person. And I say this because I prefer to adhere to Jesus' words on the subject, rather than Paul's or John's.

Originally posted by schadenfreude
There are five offices in the church. Apostle, prophet, teacher, preacher & evangelist.

That's some kind of protestant interpretation. I've never heard of it.
(and no, please don't explain your interpretation)

And there are nine gifts from the HS. Discernment, tongues, interpretation, prophecy & faith. Healing, wisdom & miracles.

I've learned it different from you.
The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit

Wisdom. Understanding. Counsel. Fortitude. Knowledge. Piety. Fear of the Lord

12 Fruits of the Holy Spirit

charity, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, long-suffering, humility or gentleness, fidelity or faithfulness, modesty, continence or self-control and chastity.

Charisms of the Holy Spirit are Faith, gift of healing, gift of miracles, discerning of spirits, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues.

Which one of the main five are you? Which one of the nine gifts do you have? Do you know?

When baptized, the Holy Spirit comes upon the soul and everyone baptized receives all of the gifts. They are anointed by the Holy Spirit . It's just that people don't open all the gifts they receive. They are like wrapped Christmas presents left under the tree on Christmas morning and forgotten. I know exactly which gifts I have opened ... and which ones I've left forgotten under the tree.

ON TOPIC .. again ... I am not to blame for the sins of others. It's not my fault that the world is the way it is. I have to disagree with your opening post. Sorry about that. But people are accountable for their own crimes and own sins.

Originally posted by laurentius
the state of the world today is america's fault. and that's a fact.

:shk: another one .... ugh. No, the state of the world today is not America's fault. That's absurd. There are many reasons why the world is as it is today. There are many culprits and many reasons. To dismiss the part that certain uncivilized religious practices play in the reason the world is such a mess ... that's just silly. To dismiss the part that each and every industrialized country plays ... that's just silly.

reply to post by schadenfreude

"Accuser of the brethren" is another verse that some christians use as a bat to beat other christians to DEATH with. Am I to assume that you are calling me this term, or sharing this trait? You do realize who "the accuser" is right?

Of course I know. And I haven't yet made the assumption that you are a Christian yet. I don't know you, know your works, know your fruit. I can't make a call like that based on a few posts in a thread. All I know is you spent a good amount of your OP attacking a Christian. And if you are a brother in Christ you aren't a spiritual authority in that person's life so you don't have the authority in scripture to challenge him, and you certainly don't do it in public if you would have that authority. So you're accusing the brethren, Hagee specifically, all Christians in a general sense. You aren't encouraging and exhorting, you're scolding with an assumption of self-righteous Phariseeism.

You don't have the Biblical authority to chastize another brother or sister in Christ. That's the job of the Holy Spirit, worry about your own planks.

reply to post by FlyersFan

and no, please don't explain your interpretation

what was the gift of tongues, gift of prophecy, gift of interpretation of tongues, gift of wisdom, gift of healing, gift of knowledge? weren't they called the gifts of the spirit in the text?

Originally posted by schadenfreude
reply to post by Krazysh0t

 

When Christians were acting Christ-like, they brought Rome to it's knees. When they went WILLINGLY to the lions, ppl jumped out of their seats when they saw it AND JOINED THE CHRISTIANS. iirc, it was 7 romans, for every one christian martyred.

Christianity today no longer has that influence, least in America. But to deny that influence ever happened, well that's just disingenuous, don't you think?

edit on 8-8-2013 by schadenfreude because: (no reason given)

I'm gong to deny it because I don't see a source on any of it. Considering that executions in ancient Rome were considered a public spectacle I find your claims rather dubious. In fact of all the times I've heard mention of Christian persecution, this is the first time I've heard mention of Romans sacrificing themselves along with the Christians as a means of protest. This source even goes on to mention how boring it was for the crowd to watch.

Roman executions typically were considered a form of public spectacle. When coinciding with a game day, they usually took place during the midday break between the morning animal hunts and the afternoon gladiator matches. A favored method was exposing an unarmed criminal to lions or bears. Since it’s pretty clear that Christians were at times sentenced to death by beast (see 1 and 2 above), one may surmise that some of them met their end via lion in front of a Colosseum crowd, but we have no sure knowledge of this. The entertainment value of executions was apparently low due to their sheer number — many people found them boring, either leaving for lunch or sticking around and writing letters to friends about the tedium.

www.straightdope.com...

reply to post by undo


Charisms. That's a gift .. but a little different.
It's all under gifts from God ... but just separated a bit.
Like I said .. 1/2 the Christians learn it a bit different is all.

Oh, don't get me started on Hagee. When you look at all his work in taking up for Israel and how he slams the Catholic Church in so many of his books... only then to turn around and apologize to the Catholic league after being given millions in charity donations to send Jews back to Israel... it's kind of obvious that this man bit off more than he can chew.

There is this idea, as seen by various pieces of evidence, that the conspiracy that lumps Rome together with Israel against true Christians is still ongoing. Although Jews and Catholics are the strangest bedfellows, there is reason to believe that throughout history elites from both sides have collaborated to spread Vatican control into the middle East and used regular Jewish people as a sacrifice.

They knew that the people like to see the victim win... and I'm certainly not the only one who believes that Jewish elite victimized their own people for Zion. I do NOT believe that all the Jewish migration happened on their own incentive. Just look, we had John Hagee, a so called Christian raising millions of dollars to send Jews back to Israel who has closer ties to Catholicism than he ever wanted to admit in any of his books. I'm not sure if I believe that the current Vatican is pulling for this, maybe they have tones it down a bit, but I firmly believe that as late as WW2, they used Jews to cause problems in Europe for the leaders they didn't like after being backed into their little corner of Vatican City State... While they appeared to be behaving and cooperating, they had hands all throughout Europe that were secretly encouraging BOTH Jewish migration, Jewish victimization and making problems everywhere they went. The elites have always controlled the main world religions and that included Judaism, and Jews have been taught persecution syndrome by their own teachers whether they realize it or not. In a different way, the same thing is happening to muslims, the same thing is happening to Christian but on a lesser extent because it is supposed to be like Catholicism, which will reign... while other religions are more disposable. Easier to victimize and pit against other religions. You should watch a very good video I recently watched from Youtube called the Catholic and Islam connection... or something like that, don't quote me. There is a man in a suit speaking and showing pictures and it's about an hour long. t's very interesting.

I think Hagee was set up in the media in collaboration with Jewish scholars and influence to produce Christian Fundamental dogma that would garner sympathy for Zionism among conservative Americans... and then he found out later that the Catholic Church had a hand in his rise and had to turn around and give them respect, because he was biting the hand that feeds and wasn't fully aware.

Granted, he can put some BS together and pull fast ones out of his hat, but he is a humongous stooge.

You really have to wonder where all that money he collected came from.

reply to post by schadenfreude


The state of the world is not the church's fault, it's man's fault.

Greed has not prevailed over the church, for no matter how much greed has taken over the world, it doesn't change what Jesus Christ did, nor it's ability to save souls (even though you may be seeing more greed than souls being saved, it doesn't change the fact that souls are being saved every day in spite of it.)

Considering that the Bible told us that the world would come to it's end this way, there's nothing you can do to stop it. You can only keep doing that which you've been called to do and if you want to call out the unrighteous, fine, but you can't blame the church. We're all responsible for our own salvation, regardless of false prophets and fallen churches. Not all Christian churches and pastors are poor role models.

reply to post by Deetermined

Considering that the Bible told us that the world would come to it's end this way, there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Bull pie!!!

This is perhaps the attitude I detest the most. "The Bible told us" - ?????? That is such a LAME scapegoat. There IS something we can do to "stop it." But many people don't WANT TO - for idiotic reasons like believing they will escape in "the rapture".

This is such an apathetic, stupid excuse for DOING NOTHING. Sorry, Dee, but I just can't comprehend how you can claim such "helplessness" and "powerlessness" - except that you've been TOLD that by some preacher who is equally apathetic, and you are CHOOSING to just sit back, whine, and wait. I don't want to get into hostilities with you again, we are past that, I believe - but, I have a question for you. Have you given this some "objective" thought?

"The Bible says" does NOT answer all questions humanity has, nor does it have AUTHORITY or any REAL impact on people unless they allow it to. Have you considered that at all? What if your Bible disappeared, and you got knocked on the head, and woke with amnesia, and looked around you - to find NO BIBLES to consult.

THEN what would you do?
Just asking. I think you rely too much on a very sketchy volume that encourages apathy, complacency, and laziness to affect any changes at all.

A family member was telling me about an acquaintance who is agnostic and unaffiliated with religion - whose two brothers are "Jesus freaks" saying "Jesus found you that parking place, it wasn't luck. There's no such thing as luck (or timing)." Ridiculous.

If there IS a God, it is not a guy who lived 2000 years ago and an old man sitting side by side on thrones in the sky watching, keeping tabs, and DOING NOTHING. It just seems silly to me.

le shrug, le sigh. le facepalm.

reply to post by wildtimes


Who said anything about doing nothing? I only said that we won't be able to stop if it's God's will for it to happen, but that we're each supposed to keep doing that which we've been called to do until then. I'm sorry, if you keep mistaking that for "doing nothing".

reply to post by schadenfreude

The state of the world today is the church's fault

The Roman Empire still lives on through its churches.