The arrival of "Concentration Camps" in Russia

I know there is a lot of pro-Russia sentiment on ATS, and I have long believed that this is not a black and white issue. I am sick of seeing people here supporting one side and ignoring their abuses because of their stance against a common enemy.

In recent months there has been a rise in this pro-Russia position on the forums, with people willfully ignoring negative aspects of Russia just because they have assisted Snowden. The assistance Russia has given Snowden does not automatically absolve the Russian government of all wrongdoing, and this thread should hammer that home to many here.

You may be well aware that Russia has new anti-gay laws which are affecting many in Russia. While there are many here who (rightly) point out that nations have the right to create their own laws, those same people ignore the increasing abuse targeted to the LGBT community.

People are being assaulted in the streets, in their homes, tortured and even killed - not for breaking any law, but because this "anti-propaganda law" has given permission for the far-right to act with impunity.

You can argue a defense of sovereign laws, but you CANNOT argue that gay people having to flee their homes under police protection for doing nothing wrong is also "right".



I have been saying for a long time that things in Russia are becoming increasingly dangerous, and we now have more evidence of this in a report from the Guardian which explains the opening of "concentration camps" for illegal immigrants.

You might also note that the law used for rounding these people up is very loose, meaning that if there is anything remotely wrong with their papers, they can be incarcerated.

On 29 July, police began raiding markets around the city and arresting immigrants whose documents were not in order, most of them from the Caucasus and Central Asia.

But that's not all. There are plans to extend this system of detention across Russia, with a bill expected to go through which would create 83 detainment centers for immigrants.

Russia currently has 21 detention centres for immigrants facing deportation, but authorities have prepared a bill that would create 83 special centres across the country's 81 regions.

Guardian - Russia detains immigrants in 'concentration camps'

How long do we think it's going to be before these detainment facilities are filled with journalists, writers, activists, political opponents and LGBT people? Does anyone have any faith at all that a government can resist using such measures to deal with people they don't like?

Harvey Fierstein is right. This was already looking like a direct copy of what Hitler began under Nazi rule, and with the development of these camps Putin is furthering that goal.

What will the world do about it? Will it take reports of executions and mass graves before any government makes a real statement about this? Will we see a repeat of the 1940's?

I don't think it is ignoring their bad issues, I think it is more like a "lesser than two evils" scenario.

If we were to demonize every nation based on the way they handle every scenario, can you name one nation that is above the rest and has no "skeletons in the closet"?

I do agree with you though. I believe ALL governments should be transparent.

Originally posted by superman2012
I don't think it is ignoring their bad issues, I think it is more like a "lesser than two evils" scenario.

If we were to demonize every nation based on the way they handle every scenario, can you name one nation that is above the rest and has no "skeletons in the closet"?

I do agree with you though. I believe ALL governments should be transparent.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here who blindly support one government or another based on one or two issues, ignoring the bad about them. In this instance, while Russia might be assisting Snowden (someone I support adamantly) I cannot just ignore the fact that they are rolling out a modern fascism across the country.

I've seen the same thing with Syria, with anti-American sentiment fueling a support for Assad even in the face of the evidence that he slaughtered hundreds of thousands of his own people - with his own military.

The same happens in the argument about Israel and Palestine. Just because Israel is an aggressor, doesn't mean we can simply ignore the fact that Hamas HAS been firing rockets at innocent people in Israel. Yes, I am adamantly anti-Israeli government too for their treatment of the people of Gaza and the ongoing blockade and theft of land, but Hamas is no innocent party either!

Too many people here have very simplistic thinking. If a nation shows some spine in their dealings with America or the UK, they instantly get support and people willfully ignore the abuses carried out by that nation, and I fear the same thing is happening with Russia right now.

Russia is becoming an incredibly dangerous situation, using LGBT people as a scapegoat (the same way Hitler used the Jews and others), and encouraging an extremist nationalism amongst the population. This can only lead in one direction.

Are people here on ATS going to ignore all of this simply because Putin dares to argue with the US? That's what concerns me. I fear that the world will ignore what's happening there, and that we'll see the same thing happening again, just because our governments don't want to confront it, and because too many people either don't think it's possible, or that they blindly support any government willing to stand up against America.

I wonder what will happen when we start seeing reports of journalists, intellectuals, and LGBT people being thrown into these camps, and whether it will take Russia invading a neighbor before people really start to question the support they've expressed.

I'm concerned about threads like this, which are equally uninformed.

Russia, like America, is divided into two factions.

Those being 'Bolshevik/Zionist' and those of the Orthodox Christians.

I think you'll find the 'internment' camps popping up in the US and Russia are created by the Zionist parties, whilst the 'Anti-Gay' laws are being proposed by the Christians.

I'm generaly Pro-Gay rights...However, having said that, if we keep pushing the Gay 'agenda' (which has been in play for the last 20 years)... The generations that follow will believe that 'Gay' is the new 'straight'.

Are none of you concerned about the natural laws of nature and procreation? I am.

Whatever,.

Partial Quotes

Originally posted by Rocker2013

I know there is a lot of pro-Russia sentiment on ATS, ........

In recent months there has been a rise in this pro-Russia position on the forums, .........

This was already looking like a direct copy of what Hitler began under Nazi rule, and with the development of these camps Putin is furthering that goal.

Seems to me that what Obamanation is doing to post Constitutional America is looking very much like a direct copy of what Hitler accomplished from 1932 - 1945 under Nazi rule.

As for what sometimes appears to be pro- Soviet support lately - what you are seeing is a comparison of two evils; of two evil heads of state, and Putin comes out on top every time when put against Obamanation's dictatorial police state agenda. Obama also turns out to be a rabid Marxist whereas Putin has pretty much abandoned Marxist/Leninist strategies of domination and subjugation of the people and has taken up a much more conciliatory political posture.

In other words, we 'true patriotic Americans' are astounded at the reversal of fortune that we are now witnessing wherein Russia has become more free than America..............so that's what you are seeing happening. Not necessarily praise of Putin so much as a total condemnation of the Obamanation -- and rightfully so.

I really get where you are coming from.

When dealing with conspiracy theories, one thing that always strikes me is that 99% of them are always framed in a binary way: "Look at this side: It is evil. Therefore the other side must be good". And vice-versa.

This is curious because if anyone, it should be conspiracy theorists that are aware of the fact that reality (political, economic, social, or personal) is never a black-and-white issue. Reality comes in shades of grey (the metaphoric kind, not the cheap smut novel for suburban housewives), not in black-and-white.

This all goes to prove that some of what Popper said about conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists is actually true: It is just a rehash of ancient concepts of historical theism, secularly stated. The essence, though, remains the same: A binary conflict between good and evil.

Be aware of this binary trap whenever you go strolling through the rabbit hole. Consider what I wrote in this post in light of Skyfloating's excellent thread about conspiracy theories that originate from the KGB (such as the Fort Detrick AIDS hoax)...

I'm glad Edward Snowden is safe in Russia atm however I hope he is able to get out of there fast. Russia isn't providing sanctuary because they are noble, just to thumb their nose at the US. The fact of the matter is, that if Russia were persecuting and abusing any other minority there wouldn't be this level of silence and Americans as well as other Western people's would be outraged over the Olympics being held there.

Everytime we think we we make strides against injustice, we get slapped right back into reality.

Originally posted by ObservingYou
I'm concerned about threads like this, which are equally uninformed.

Russia, like America, is divided into two factions.

Those being 'Bolshevik/Zionist' and those of the Orthodox Christians.

I think you'll find the 'internment' camps popping up in the US and Russia are created by the Zionist parties, whilst the 'Anti-Gay' laws are being proposed by the Christians.

I'm generaly Pro-Gay rights...However, having said that, if we keep pushing the Gay 'agenda' (which has been in play for the last 20 years)... The generations that follow will believe that 'Gay' is the new 'straight'.

Are none of you concerned about the natural laws of nature and procreation? I am.

Whatever,.

I so agree with your viewpoint. I'm not fond of Russian politic of conflict and aggressiveness but I do like one fact: Unlike other countries that act like directed voices in a choir, obey instantly to what USA and so called European Union or international organizations that only God knows what their real agenda is and who is behind them say, Russia doesn't give a rats @ss and tells them all to go and shovel it. Is about time that a country shows to the world that this sort of obey or we dislike you attitude embraced by to many puppet countries in the world that have become a simple kiss @ss of USA or European Union doesn't work for all. Yeah I don't agree with Russia's toughness on the subject and I'm a firm believer that people shouldn't be persecuted because of their sexual preferences. Everyone should be free of this kind of prejudice but on the other hand I'm not ok also with the gay agenda being pushed down our throats for over 20 years now. Enough is enough. Be gay, be bisexual or transgender in your own private life,within the walls of your home or apartment and I'm sure nobody with ever judge you or be bothered by you. But the most important is: don't force your politics on me because your politic is not mine. In my country I make the rules. Time for USA and EU to learn that. Damn hypocrites.

Originally posted by ObservingYou
I'm generaly Pro-Gay rights...However, having said that, if we keep pushing the Gay 'agenda' (which has been in play for the last 20 years)... The generations that follow will believe that 'Gay' is the new 'straight'.

Are none of you concerned about the natural laws of nature and procreation? I am.

Whatever,.

Oh lord, another person who fears that gays will convert all heterosexuals.

Gays have been accepted in different societies historically - there has always been plenty of breeding going on in the world. Not to worry.

reply to post by Telos


Then you must really admire countries like Iraq and Afghanistan as well. They, like Russia, are also well known for their lack of human rights. Maybe you could move there, and be in good company with others who hate America.

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Telos

 

Then you must really admire countries like Iraq and Afghanistan as well. They, like Russia, are also well known for their lack of human rights. Maybe you could move there, and be in good company with others who hate America.

Don't twist the meaning of what I said. If you got the chops to stick on the argument and talk about what I said and not what you like me to have said, then we're ok. Otherwise I don't have neither the time or the will to deal with another gay "anti bashing" thread.

Originally posted by Telos
Everyone should be free of this kind of prejudice but on the other hand I'm not ok also with the gay agenda being pushed down our throats for over 20 years now. Enough is enough. Be gay, be bisexual or transgender in your own private life,within the walls of your home or apartment and I'm sure nobody with ever judge you or be bothered by you. But the most important is: don't force your politics on me because your politic is not mine. In my country I make the rules. Time for USA and EU to learn that. Damn hypocrites.

What "gay agenda"?

You seem to suggest that gay people are not citizens, and therefore have no right to the same expression.

How can you, on the one hand, claim that all are equal, and then suggest that it's "your country"!?

The LGBT people of your country are citizens too, so what gives you the right to dictate what becomes a national discussion and what has to be hidden away from view?

Can I then claim that Christians are a bad influence on MY RIGHT to live and demand that symbols of religion all be removed from public view?

How about if I were to suddenly decide that I don't like Asian people, can I then demand that all symbols of Asian culture be eradicated?

How the hell does a gay pride march, a gay TV show or the passing of gay marriage laws affect your life in any damn way?

You're ignorant to the fact that LGBT are a part of your society, and while you claim to believe that we are all equal, you suggest it with a sneer of "as long as you don't have the right to be open about it".

Originally posted by ObservingYou
I'm generaly Pro-Gay rights...However, having said that, if we keep pushing the Gay 'agenda' (which has been in play for the last 20 years)... The generations that follow will believe that 'Gay' is the new 'straight'.

Are none of you concerned about the natural laws of nature and procreation? I am.

Whatever,.

Whatever is the initial response I had to your post, then I chose to come back and respond. I guess I'm a sucker for pointing out hypocrisy.

You're generally "pro-gay rights"? No, you're not. You cannot possibly be when you have such a ludicrous concern about people being "turned gay" by the acceptance of it in society.

I'm actually pretty shocked that there are still people with this kind of nonsense going through their heads in this modern age. It's almost like you're a time traveler from the 1950's being plonked in our modern world and shocked at how "liberal" we've all become

I think you'll find that the "natural laws" include gay relationships - throughout the animal kingdom. I don't see other species all becoming gay simply because they don't have a religious faction thumping holy texts and demanding all other members of their species comply.

If your irrational fears about homosexuality were true, numerous other species would have wiped themselves out by now.

reply to post by Rocker2013


We've already debated together before on the subject and you (i hope) recall that I have no problem with gay people. Why are you bringing it up again I don't get it? And why in every thread that talks about gays, you jump like you're the defender of all gays in the world. Dude, be gay if you will, but take it easy because the world doesn't revolve on you and other gays. This thread is not even about gays rights per say. When are you guys gonna learn to stick on the topic?

Originally posted by Telos

Originally posted by kaylaluv
reply to post by Telos

 

Then you must really admire countries like Iraq and Afghanistan as well. They, like Russia, are also well known for their lack of human rights. Maybe you could move there, and be in good company with others who hate America.

Don't twist the meaning of what I said. If you got the chops to stick on the argument and talk about what I said and not what you like me to have said, then we're ok. Otherwise I don't have neither the time or the will to deal with another gay "anti bashing" thread.

How can you complement a country that does not value human rights? So you're saying that Russia is great because they don't kiss America's a- - , and they show this by trashing human rights? What the heck are you saying anyway? Are you saying that Russia is deliberately doing this just to thumb their nose at America? Maybe it's just because Russia has a history about not really caring about its people. Maybe those other countries you look down on are just trying to value all human beings. Maybe it has nothing to do with America at all.

Originally posted by Rocker2013

Originally posted by ObservingYou
I'm generaly Pro-Gay rights...However, having said that, if we keep pushing the Gay 'agenda' (which has been in play for the last 20 years)... The generations that follow will believe that 'Gay' is the new 'straight'.

Are none of you concerned about the natural laws of nature and procreation? I am.

Whatever,.

Whatever is the initial response I had to your post, then I chose to come back and respond. I guess I'm a sucker for pointing out hypocrisy.

You're generally "pro-gay rights"? No, you're not. You cannot possibly be when you have such a ludicrous concern about people being "turned gay" by the acceptance of it in society.

I'm actually pretty shocked that there are still people with this kind of nonsense going through their heads in this modern age. It's almost like you're a time traveler from the 1950's being plonked in our modern world and shocked at how "liberal" we've all become

I think you'll find that the "natural laws" include gay relationships - throughout the animal kingdom. I don't see other species all becoming gay simply because they don't have a religious faction thumping holy texts and demanding all other members of their species comply.

If your irrational fears about homosexuality were true, numerous other species would have wiped themselves out by now.

LOL. Whatever.

Who are you to inform ME on MY opinion?

'My irrational fears of homosexuality'?

Come now, I have no irrational fears apart from that of spiders and clowns. I sharn't waste my energy on none intelligent discussion.

FYI - There's a difference between ACCEPTING something, and then PROMOTING it.

ETA: The fact that you feel the need to add me to your 'respected foe' list speaks volumes..... Did that button change anything in the REAL world? No

I think you'll find that the "natural laws" include gay relationships - throughout the animal kingdom

Animals AREN'T Human...In case you didn't notice

Originally posted by kaylaluv


How can you complement a country that does not value human rights? So you're saying that Russia is great because they don't kiss America's a- - , and they show this by trashing human rights? What the heck are you saying anyway? Are you saying that Russia is deliberately doing this just to thumb their nose at America? Maybe it's just because Russia has a history about not really caring about its people. Maybe those other countries you look down on are just trying to value all human beings. Maybe it has nothing to do with America at all.

Or maybe because not everything is about gays, right? If you don't understand what I'm saying, why do you even get into the argument with me?

Originally posted by ObservingYou
Come now, I have no irrational fears apart from that of spiders and clowns. I sharn't waste my energy on none intelligent discussion.

It's "unintelligent" or "non-intelligent", and "shan't".

If you wish to try to determine superiority by using claims of the person you disagree with being "unintelligent", you really should first ensure that you are proving your worth through the proper use of English.

And, it is indeed irrational to believe that modern society will somehow crumble if you are forced to accept gay people. That is, as proven, an irrational and nonsensical statement to make, whether you think of it as such or not.

Originally posted by ObservingYou




I'm generaly Pro-Gay rights...However, having said that, if we keep pushing the Gay 'agenda' (which has been in play for the last 20 years)... The generations that follow will believe that 'Gay' is the new 'straight'.

Are none of you concerned about the natural laws of nature and procreation? I am.

Whatever,.

That's just plain crazy talk. Gay people will never make a dent in procreation or natural laws.
Heterosexuality will never be replaced by homosexuality. If there is a Gay agenda it's just for equality; not special rights. Your homophobia is showing....

Originally posted by Telos
reply to post by Rocker2013

 

We've already debated together before on the subject and you (i hope) recall that I have no problem with gay people. Why are you bringing it up again I don't get it? And why in every thread that talks about gays, you jump like you're the defender of all gays in the world. Dude, be gay if you will, but take it easy because the world doesn't revolve on you and other gays. This thread is not even about gays rights per say. When are you guys gonna learn to stick on the topic?

This is on-topic.
We are discussing both the aspect of simplistic thinking in support or attack of governments and nations, AND the issue of LGBT people being used as a scapegoat and distraction by the Russian regime.

I don't know why you think that discussing LGBT rights in a thread about a government attacking that group in their society is off-topic. I guess you just want it to be so as an alternative method of disparaging when rational argument and debate goes against you?

Crying something is off-topic to diminish an opinion is a lame tactic.