Pope urges 'mutual respect' with Islam; While Iran Presidents threaten Israel

reply to post by wildtimes

You are angry on me because our views are different, thats violence too

No, it's protest based on facts.

you are entitled to your view.

What? Are you serious? I don't get you
at all, log. I really don't.

humans are violent and humans can choosen to get above it and be peaceful. All the Abrahamic religions teach and urge that but not everyone wants to get above their animal nature and assuming an identity of a certain religion does not automatically make a person better or worse.
There are Jews who are against israel, do i have any problem with them being Jews? NO, i love them as fellow humans.
Speaking out against any wrong not in any way means being against peace.
There can be no peace till there is justice for everybody.
If i come to your home and hold your family hostage at gun point then there can be no peace till that aggression stops. If you try to fight back to end that aggression are you VIOLENT?


i understand your intentions are good but you just keep on trying to understand the big picture without knowing all the parts of that picture or you try to see it through the world view that you have now accepted as the only true reality.
Try leaving your world view out long enough till you see things through my eyes and begin understanding..

reply to post by wildtimes

Very insightful. I don't blame the "idealism" of the various faiths - nor the peaceful, believing common people - but it is counterproductive to spread "apologetics" when so much strife is happening right now. Geopolitics is MUCH of the problem....

Yes, and they're agents. We need to look at the outer world, for the spiritual is something that is personal and gives one insight, it shouldn't be an institution, dogma at all. But the outer, political, that is very important as to the world our children inherit.

reply to post by logical7

i understand your intentions are good but you just keep on trying to understand the big picture without knowing all the parts of that picture or you try to see it through the world view that you have now accepted as the only true reality.
Try leaving your world view out long enough till you see things through my eyes and begin understanding..

You actually think I haven't tried that already?

Well, it just so happens that lacking the information about your personal data (such as: where you live, how much education you've had, how affluent your family is, whether or not your sisters and other female members are educated, what you do for a "living", and why you chose to become a Muslim apologist), well, I CAN'T!

YOU said to ME: "you don't deserve to know!" when I asked you those questions REPEATEDLY, and you KNOW it.


and now you say to me to try to wrap my head around your world-view? If we could weigh the amount of information I have disclosed about my own life with what YOU have disclosed about yours........your 'half of the scale' would be at rooftop height, and MINE would be IN THE BASEMENT (as in: underground, in case you don't know what a basement is!)

So, out with it!! Or stop accusing me of being unable to "see" your worldview. You have only yourself to blame for that. GOD KNOWS, I've tried. You just get huffy and impatient and nasty ("violent") instead - all the while insisting that I'm a dolt or dullard for not trying.

You see how that works?

HOW CAN I KNOW IF YOU WON'T TELL ME!!??????

reply to post by logical7

assuming an identity of a certain religion does not automatically make a person better or worse.

Well, well, well!!! What have we here???

Someone who once claimed that only religion creates MORALITY!
Good for you, to realize religion has NOTHING to do with behaving in a truly moral way.

IN islam there is prophecy that Christians(rome) and Muslims will have an alliance

reply to post by wildtimes and logical7

Senor y Senora,

(Sorry, just hit by a sudden wave of multiculturalism.)

Logical7, I don't want to fight with you, we've done this before, in other threads. I suspect that wildtimes is getting frustrated as well. I don't agree completely with her take on religion, but that's not a big problem for me. A lot of her thoughts are very agreeable to me and I see her as a friend, I'd like to see you that way as well.

Wildtimes wants peace between us and between nations, so do I. Can we try looking at this from a different angle? We won't get anywhere if everybody keeps shouting that they're right, and uses rockets as punctuation.

1.) Can we agree that the Jewish people should have their own nation, somewhere in the world, which they can control as they see fit? If we can't agree on that, please let us know clearly.

2.) If we agree on that, can we agree that the Jews have stronger ties to the area of Israel than any where else? These ties would be based on ancient history, international agreements, UN declarations, and their successful defense of the territory.

3.) If we can't agree on 2.) What location is more reasonable for their nation?

I'd like to spend a couple of posts on this approach if it interests you. There may be a way of making progress if we can dismiss the hatred and anger which is causing so many deaths.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

I'd like to spend a couple of posts on this approach if it interests you. There may be a way of making progress if we can dismiss the hatred and anger which is causing so many deaths.

GO for it!!!!

I'm waiting with bated breath.
(and if you like, do it in Spanish - "comprendo" either way. But, Spanglish might be better - the mods/owners want it to be English. )

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Sonny2

 

This is a very inflammatory remark, and I wish you had not posted it. Good luck - now you'll be on the list.

Scary. You are scary.

I am scary? really?

"Goyim(non-jews) were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel." Former Chief Rabbi in Israel - Ovadia Yosef

Who is scary now?

Originally posted by charles1952
1.) Can we agree that the Jewish people should have their own nation, somewhere in the world, which they can control as they see fit?

Absolutely not.

Countries exist by power of military control anyway.

Let's give the Southern Baptists Tennesssee and Texas. The Spirtualists get Wales. The Catholics get all of Italy. The Mormons already own Utah lol let's give the agnostics and atheists California.

Why not, any of them less deserving than the Jews? Nope but they don't have a military.

reply to post by Sonny2


Iran is not going to make people worldwide "free". I don't have a dog in the 'fight' for Israel to exist. YOU apparently do. And yes, any sort of 'veiled threat' and (no-matter-how-poetic) declaration that any other race or creed needs to be exterminated - with the victors taking over = SCARY.

reply to post by charles1952

Wildtimes wants peace between us and between nations, so do I. Can we try looking at this from a different angle? We won't get anywhere if everybody keeps shouting that they're right, and uses rockets as punctuation.

So true, my friend.

reply to post by DuecesxGeneral

IN islam there is prophecy that Christians(rome) and Muslims will have an alliance

Groovy. Very cool. WHEN? After half of the world has become uninhabitable????

I hope and pray that the prophesy comes true BEFORE we have to live through Armageddon.

Originally posted by wildtimes

reply to post by logical7

 

i understand your intentions are good but you just keep on trying to understand the big picture without knowing all the parts of that picture or you try to see it through the world view that you have now accepted as the only true reality.

Try leaving your world view out long enough till you see things through my eyes and begin understanding..

You actually think I haven't tried that already?



Well, it just so happens that lacking the information about your personal data (such as: where you live, how much education you've had, how affluent your family is, whether or not your sisters and other female members are educated, what you do for a "living", and why you chose to become a Muslim apologist), well, I CAN'T!



YOU said to ME: "you don't deserve to know!" when I asked you those questions REPEATEDLY, and you KNOW it.





and now you say to me to try to wrap my head around your world-view? If we could weigh the amount of information I have disclosed about my own life with what YOU have disclosed about yours........your 'half of the scale' would be at rooftop height, and MINE would be IN THE BASEMENT (as in: underground, in case you don't know what a basement is!)



So, out with it!! Or stop accusing me of being unable to "see" your worldview. You have only yourself to blame for that. GOD KNOWS, I've tried. You just get huffy and impatient and nasty ("violent") instead - all the while insisting that I'm a dolt or dullard for not trying.



You see how that works?



HOW CAN I KNOW IF YOU WON'T TELL ME!!??????

i don't see how information about me will help you know my world view when i am clearly telling you my world view, i am also willing to answer any question about any topic and my views about it.



I told you two things about me, my location and my relationship and when you were snapping at me, you used them both to taunt me.



I could tell you that women around me are well educated, all are college graduates, my sister is a post graduate in Education and my cousins are PG in medicine and mathametics.



I know what a basement is and i have never asked you to reveal any information so i am not obliged to reach up to you.

I would like to know what more information you need but i'l give it if its really necessary. I am not giving it on principle and not just to annoy you I think you shouldn't judge me by what i do.

reply to post by logical7

i don't see how information about me will help you know my world view when i am clearly telling you my world view,

No, you're NOT clearly telling me your 'world-view'.
It's not just about what religious ideology you favor. You don't understand much about nurture vs environmental responses.

Ever hear of "family systems" theory? How a person's upbringing is intricately linked to their adult "world-view"?

Probably not. I'd really like to communicate with you, log7, but your defensiveness is unapproachable.
Sadly.

Originally posted by wildtimes

How does Pope Francis intend to back THIS one up with the world climate of hate and violence now? I understand it's a "traditional message", that is supposed to be sent regularly - but it hasn't been sent since 1991.

I don't think it's going to be as popular as his other decisions have been so far - and I don't foresee sudden "mutual respect" gonna happen just because he called for it "traditionally."

I think you are viewing Religion through theophobic glasses. The broad majority of religious folk around the globe are respectful of each other and strive for peace and civilized discourse. Its the fringe lunatics that are the loudest and also like to frequent the internet with their paranoid zest. But thats only the fringe.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

wildtimes, I think you are viewing Religion through theophobic glasses.

You noticed that too.

The broad majority of religious folk around the globe are respectful of each other and strive for peace and civilized discourse. Its the fringe lunatics that are the loudest and also like to frequent the internet with their paranoid zest. But thats only the fringe.

"Paranoid zest" I'm writing that one down. To hell with copyright.

reply to post by Skyfloating

I think you are viewing Religion through theophobic glasses. The broad majority of religious folk around the globe are respectful of each other and strive for peace and civilized discourse. Its the fringe lunatics that are the loudest and also like to frequent the internet with their paranoid zest. But thats only the fringe.

Hmm. I thought I was viewing it through 'current events' glasses.

Okay then. The fringers can carry on murdering others....it's all......
nvm

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

assuming an identity of a certain religion does not automatically make a person better or worse.

Well, well, well!!! What have we here???

Someone who once claimed that only religion creates MORALITY!
Good for you, to realize religion has NOTHING to do with behaving in a truly moral way.

Well having a tag of a religion does not give a guarantee to become Moral.
Following the religion gives the required morals.

Claiming that a religion does not make people moral is like saying that paracetamol does not reduce fever, well it does if its eaten as prescribed, does not work if its just kept in the medicine cabinet!
People keep the teachings of their religion in the theology cabinet and go about believing that they are doing great and just follow the socio-cultural values which have never been questioned critically.

All religion's teachings are same at the core and its like a doctor's prescription. To be effective it needs to be applied not just read every sunday or recited every friday!

My claim is Morality can be given only by God. I am not changing it. Its just common sense, otherwise its just subjective and nobody can claim that their morality is the right one.
You will not agree because you believe that God does not communicate with His creation through Prophets.
So the disagreements we have are primarily due to the basic beliefs we hold. One of us is wrong about their basic belief or both of us are wrong!

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

You can do as you choose, of course, we all have free will. But won't you consider my invitation to find some common ground and a possible solution? A fight with wildtimes will not solve anything, fights in only a few, special circumstances ever do. Besides, fighting with wildtimes will make you wish you just walked away and called it a draw.

Please, let's see if we can grope our way forward to some possible solution to the problem we face. I promise to work with you and be as fair as I know how to be.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

1.) Can we agree that the Jewish people should have their own nation, somewhere in the world, which they can control as they see fit? If we can't agree on that, please let us know clearly.

should? Well they can have it if they can, say buy a big piece of land and declare it as a country.
Nobody has an obligation to give it to them or help them or accomodate them.

They can get/buy a land that actually belonged to the one who gave/sold it.
What the colonialist did was that they gave them a land that they had occupied just before they were leaving in exchange of some pre-arranged favours ofcourse.

2.) If we agree on that, can we agree
that the Jews have stronger ties to the
area of Israel than any where else?
These ties would be based on ancient
history, international agreements, UN
declarations, and their successful defense of the territory.

history is history. If you play this then you should also agree to leave USA and hand it over to the indians with an apology.
International agreements don't count if the party that is affected is not included. I cannot sell your house to someone and tell you to get out as it has been SOLD.
Might is not right. We have discussed that.

3.) If we can't agree on 2.) What
location is more reasonable for their
nation?

Anyone who is willing and eager to take them.
Maybe the area you live, you could leave and settle out of their new country, USA is big enough.