Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

Originally posted by frazzle

 

I probably come across as abrasive sometimes ~ well okay, most of the time,

frazzle, you are making some excellent points. And no, you don't come across abrasive, some others do. It is amazing to watch how many people feel they need to protect their property by proclaiming that they were not born when it was stolen. I told them a hundred times to relax, nobody will knock on their door to redistribute anything based on this discussion.

You are perfectly correct, if having been born is the criteria then the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to them either. You were not a party to that. This is another discussion but those who do not want to look at their own history will not be able to learn from it.

Ironic in that context, that every baby born today inherits a $50,000 share of the $17,000,000,000,000 national debt - even though they were not born when it accumulated.

www.youtube.com...

Those good in math here will be able to figure that you need to multiply this pile 17 times over. Think, if possibly we are being the ones enslaved today, and, if possibly we could be robbed of our land in the near future. They still don't want to learn from the past because they are unable to look forward.

Originally posted by KnowledgeSeeker81
reply to post by frazzle

 

See there is where i will disagree though, you say it targeted mainly Native Americans, as where the numbers in that say otherwise. A few thousand have been reported regarding Native Americans, while numbers of other ethnicities reach into the hundreds of thousands. By comparison of populations, I would say they would relatively be equal.

I also don't know the context of these instances, so as a pure hypothetical, if you had any specific population rising, while not being able to self-sustain and therefore requiring aid from the government, how would you deal with it? Do you encourage an overpopulation by allowing government aid and not setting any restrictions? If a woman has 3 children, isn't working, isn't married, and is receiving and living off of government benefits, should she be allowed to have another child? We bring morals into question here without a doubt, but that goes both ways. What is the right thing to do then?

This is how numbers can be (and are) skewed to arrive at a desired result. Out of 650 IHS hospitals, clinics, and health stations on or near Indian reservations across the US, a whole whopping 4 of them were investigated by GAO, leaving OUT of the investigation 646 other facilities. And in those four alone they found that 3,406 involuntary sterilizations had been performed over only a three-year period. But rather than expand the investigation to get an accurate number or do a thorough house cleaning of those culpable in doing the surgeries, they merely transferred IHS to a different department ~ the department of health and human services. I doubt if anyone was even fired, after all, they weren't just doing a little side work without approval from someone higher on the food chain.

And yes, black women and Latinos and Puerto Ricans were also sterilized but what you won't see anywhere on that list are white women. I guess white people aren't included in the overall" overpopulation" crisis?

Read more: Forced Sterilization of Native Americans - Women, Color, Health, and Targeted - JRank Articles encyclopedia.jrank.org...

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


You and frazzle are confusing a constitution that gives the set up of our nation that is to judge all laws made after that constitution is adopted with what someone did 400 years ago that was bad? So, because we live in a country established via a constitution then we are individually responsible for any action someone did back then?

Ok, I want to know when you are going to send me a check for a million dollars because I am the daughter of an American Indian and as my dad used to like to say, "Get our of my country"!

You two are really trying to change this whole topic. It is supposedly about American's being responsible for the WORST genocide in history. It's full of nonsense.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by frazzle

 

I probably come across as abrasive sometimes ~ well okay, most of the time,

frazzle, you are making some excellent points. And no, you don't come across abrasive, some others do. It is amazing to watch how many people feel they need to protect their property by proclaiming that they were not born when it was stolen. I told them a hundred times to relax, nobody will knock on their door to redistribute anything based on this discussion.

You are perfectly correct, if having been born is the criteria then the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to them either. You were not a party to that. This is another discussion but those who do not want to look at their own history will not be able to learn from it.

Ironic in that context, that every baby born today inherits a $50,000 share of the $17,000,000,000,000 national debt - even though they were not born when it accumulated.

Those good in math here will be able to figure that you need to multiply this pile 17 times over. Think, if possibly we are being the ones enslaved today, and, if possibly we could be robbed of our land in the near future. They still don't want to learn from the past because they are unable to look forward.

Thank you. Sometimes its like being like a stalk of corn in the middle of a wheat field.

I'm just waiting for everyone to disclaim any responsibility for all their accumulated debt that they never saw any funds or benefits flowing from. That particular denial will go over like a lead balloon with the people who love to collect on the debt. Maybe those collectors will have to take their payments out of our hides for something congress set up before any of us was born. Now there's something to look forward to.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

You and frazzle are confusing a constitution that gives the set up of our nation that is to judge all laws made after that constitution is adopted with what someone did 400 years ago that was bad? So, because we live in a country established via a constitution then we are individually responsible for any action someone did back then?

Ok, I want to know when you are going to send me a check for a million dollars because I am the daughter of an American Indian and as my dad used to like to say, "Get our of my country"!

You two are really trying to change this whole topic. It is supposedly about American's being responsible for the WORST genocide in history. It's full of nonsense.

The Treaty of 1868 (The Fort Laramie Treaty) was written and approved by the folks who "make all laws" under the constitution with the Sioux tribes of South Dakota. Treaties, you will remember, are supreme law in that document. That wasn't exactly 400 years ago.

Among other things, this LEGAL and SUPREME treaty included:

the United States recognized the Black Hills as part of the Great Sioux Reservation, set aside for exclusive use by the Sioux people. In 1874, however, Gen. George A. Custer led an expedition into the Black Hills accompanied by miners who were seeking gold. Once gold was found in the Black Hills, miners were soon moving into the Sioux hunting grounds and demanding protection from the U.S. Army. Soon, the Army was ordered to move against wandering bands of Sioux hunting on the range in accordance with their treaty rights.

www.ourdocuments.gov...

And the rest, as they say, is history. Have you been to the Black Hills lately? Its overrun with white owned tourist trappism and blatant consumerism with the faces of the invaders carved into the "native" rock to mock the true owners.

But I guess supreme is in the eye of the beholder. Or maybe its just in the eye of folks who can only see there's gold in them thar hills and they WANT a piece of it. Gold is god. Gold is supreme. Gold is much more sacred than somebody else's sacred land.

So whatever happened to all that gold? Ummm, I think FDR confiscated it all from the descendants of the people who stole it from the Indians. I don't remember seeing that in the constitution anywhere either, but he got away with it in a one good deed deserves another kind of way.

Originally posted by frazzle


So whatever happened to all that gold? Ummm, I think FDR confiscated it all from the descendants of the people who stole it from the Indians. I don't remember seeing that in the constitution anywhere either, but he got away with it in a one good deed deserves another kind of way.

This still isn't the worst genocide in human history. You are a stubborn one and refuse to acknowledge that the title of your thread is most upsetting to many because it is a BASH America thread. You can feel that way all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

Again, what exactly do you want ME to do about it? Shall I crawl on my knees for 10 miles a day wearing sack cloth and a sign apologizing for what happened to the Indians? Who is going to crawl on their knees for what they did to my people? Please, this is a thread that seems intent on just causing arguments for argument sake. When will you be done kicking at the thorns and thistles?

What has happened to the Natives of North America is heartbreaking and criminal.

But to call it a genocide by Americans is just wrong.

If you had said "European" you would have been more accurate. Post Columbian pandemics and genocide practically wiped out the natives, but the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and later British and French are responsible. NOT Americans.

Europeans were in North America hundreds of years before America was formed in the late 18th Century. Yes, the Americans did continue to treat the Natives horribly, but the damage was pretty much done and finished by the 19th Century.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

This still isn't the worst genocide in human history. You are a stubborn one and refuse to acknowledge that the title of your thread is most upsetting to many because it is a BASH America thread. You can feel that way all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

You don't even know whose thread it is and you call me stubborn? As far as I can tell, this isn't a bash America thread, its a WAKE the **** up America thread because what was done to others WILL be done to us unless we stop doing it to everyone else. In fact, it is already being done to us, its everywhere around you, you just refuse to acknowledge it because it hasn't been YOU on the receiving end ~ yet. And as we all know by know, its all about you.

Again, what exactly do you want ME to do about it? Shall I crawl on my knees for 10 miles a day wearing sack cloth and a sign apologizing for what happened to the Indians? Who is going to crawl on their knees for what they did to my people? Please, this is a thread that seems intent on just causing arguments for argument sake. When will you be done kicking at the thorns and thistles?

edit on 5-8-2013 by UnifiedSerenity because: (no reason given)

Keep doing what you're doing: "Oh poor me. Its all about me and my tender feelings. Don't hurt my feelings by telling the truth. Don't expect me to feel anything for anyone but me." My advice? Just sit back and it will all come clear to you in the fullness of time because what goes around, comes around. Call it nature's balance. That's why people are so afraid of the truth.

Originally posted by frazzle

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

This still isn't the worst genocide in human history. You are a stubborn one and refuse to acknowledge that the title of your thread is most upsetting to many because it is a BASH America thread. You can feel that way all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

You don't even know whose thread it is and you call me stubborn? As far as I can tell, this isn't a bash America thread, its a WAKE the **** up America thread because what was done to others WILL be done to us unless we stop doing it to everyone else. In fact, it is already being done to us, its everywhere around you, you just refuse to acknowledge it because it hasn't been YOU on the receiving end ~ yet. And as we all know by know, its all about you.

Again, what exactly do you want ME to do about it? Shall I crawl on my knees for 10 miles a day wearing sack cloth and a sign apologizing for what happened to the Indians? Who is going to crawl on their knees for what they did to my people? Please, this is a thread that seems intent on just causing arguments for argument sake. When will you be done kicking at the thorns and thistles?

edit on 5-8-2013 by UnifiedSerenity because: (no reason given)

Keep doing what you're doing: "Oh poor me. Its all about me and my tender feelings. Don't hurt my feelings by telling the truth. Don't expect me to feel anything for anyone but me." My advice? Just sit back and it will all come clear to you in the fullness of time because what goes around, comes around. Call it nature's balance. That's why people are so afraid of the truth.

You know you are right, but you pretty much took it over, so I will amend my statement about YOU being stubborn about the thread title. You seem to agree with the OP on everything though so maybe the shoe fits and you two can come up with a way for us to properly fix the problem. Just what do you guys want ME to do? When are YOU guys going to send me a check for the abuses against the Indians? I am waiting.

reply to post by Leonidas

What has happened to the Natives of North America is heartbreaking and criminal.

Agreed.

But to call it a genocide by Americans is just wrong.

Again, agreed.

If you had said "European" you would have been more accurate.

Hmmm - It may seem pedantic but I'd suggest 'contact with Europeans' would be more accurate.

Post Columbian pandemics and genocide practically wiped out the natives, but the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and later British and French are responsible. NOT Americans.

First of all I'd suggest you change 'are responsible' to 'were responsible'.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to suggest that there was a deliberate attempt to use some sort of biological warfare to kill off Native Americans - that's simply untrue.

I don't know if this well referenced article has been posted before but I found it informative.
en.wikipedia.org...

I also spent some time reading a few of the related articles, external links and cross-referencing some of the information and sources.
I came to several conclusions;

a) There can be no definitive numbers on the total number of people who died.
b) Several nations / groups etc share varying degrees of responsibility.
c) No-one comes out of it looking very good - it's actually a quite damning indictment of mankind as a whole.

As for the statement made in the OP;
Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

It's impossible to determine if it was 'the worst genocide' due to the doubt surrounding the numbers.
Whilst being complicit, it's highly inaccurate and unfair to label Americans as being solely responsible.

I don't think anyone disagrees that Native Americans were treat appallingly - but nearly 30 pages of bitching and playing the blame game has achieved nothing, and never will.
A few pages back it seemed as if a general consensus had been agreed that the important thing is what is going to be done in the here and now regarding the current plight of Native Americans - unfortunately it seems things have gone back to a mixture of finger pointing, self-hate and denial of responsibility.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

Originally posted by alldaylong


The US Congress "Authorized" war against both Vietnam and Iraq
For your further education:-

en.wikipedia.org...

You are incorrect. Congress authorized a war on terrorism in Iraq. They did not authorize war on Iraq. Words mean things and that word "on" or "against" is crucial. They use the boogy man of terrorist to launch all the wars now. It's a war ON terrorism IN various countries. What they get is "authorization for the use of military force" and congress has not declared war on any nation since WWII.

If you think you didn't fight a war in Iraq then you need to educate your fellow countrymen:-

freebeacon.com...

www.iraqwarheroes.com...

www.tomjoad.org...

Originally posted by alldaylong

If you think you didn't fight a war in Iraq then you need to educate your fellow countrymen:-

Hmmm. "you"? Unified Serenity did YOU fight a war in Iraq? As I have said in another thread, MY definition of war and the legal definition of war (Congress declares war) may be splitting hairs, but we can be all lawyerly here if you choose. No, Congress did NOT declare war. So, technically I would have to agree with Unified Serenity.

This thread is titled "Americans committed the worst genocide in world history" so I think Unified Serenity has a point. It is deliberately divisive from the outset. I recall someone here that has continued posting (frazzle I think) agreed with me previously that comparing atrocities is problematic.

Originally posted by UnifiedSerenity

You know you are right, but you pretty much took it over, so I will amend my statement about YOU being stubborn about the thread title. You seem to agree with the OP on everything though so maybe the shoe fits and you two can come up with a way for us to properly fix the problem. Just what do you guys want ME to do? When are YOU guys going to send me a check for the abuses against the Indians? I am waiting.

the payroll clerk's name is Helen Waite. You need to go there with your request for a check.

About the only thing I've said about the title is that a lot of posters never got beyond it to discuss the content of the OP or the subject matter, other than to dispute numbers etc. I did see a lot knee jerk responses, though. I saw lots of USA, USA, USA and kiss my royal Irish ass type rebukes against anyone who doesn't agree the US is the best of the best of the best. Speaking of 9/11, I always thought it was kind of funny that guy didn't say his royal American ass seeing as how it was not an attack on Ireland.

As for which genocide would be worse than another, I suppose it would be whichever one wipes out your own entire family's gene pool. Just understand that It wouldn't be anyone else's worst genocide.

Far as that goes, aliens could drop by tomorrow and wipe out every white American in the US and it wouldn't be genocide because there would still be white people in Russia and all over Europe as well as in many other places, including Americans. There would probably be some collateral damage to other people, too, but they'd be wiping out the better part of a nationality, not a genome. Besides, aliens probably aren't signatories to the genocide treaty anyway, just like European Americans had never heard of such a thing when most of the killing happened to the Indians. (See, I used both E and A there to be politically correct.)

But since you're so perturbed by the number of posts I've made on this thread, I'll simply stop responding to your posts TO me and that should cut mine down by at least half. Adios, Muchacha.

reply to post by Khaleesi

No, Congress did NOT declare war. So, technically I would have to agree with Unified Serenity.

Not to split the hair even further, but congress did appropriate the funds that went into fighting the Iraq war, although they were mostly called "reconstruction" and "medical" and "humanitarian" type appropriations. And of course we don't know for sure where all that money went anyway, just that most of it was "lost". Congress can scream no, no, no for brownie points with their constituents, but where and how they spend our money is more important than greasy kid stuff in the hairdo for photo ops.

And yes, I did agree that comparing atrocities to make points and counterpoints is problematic.

Originally posted by Leonidas

 

What has happened to the Natives of North America is heartbreaking and criminal.

But to call it a genocide by Americans is just wrong.

If you had said "European" you would have been more accurate. Post Columbian pandemics and genocide practically wiped out the natives, but the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and later British and French are responsible. NOT Americans.

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. This is self-delusion.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


where is the lie in what I said?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Leonidas

 

What has happened to the Natives of North America is heartbreaking and criminal.

But to call it a genocide by Americans is just wrong.

If you had said "European" you would have been more accurate. Post Columbian pandemics and genocide practically wiped out the natives, but the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and later British and French are responsible. NOT Americans.

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. This is self-delusion.

I thought what he posted was quite accurate. I don't think calling him a liar (please don't say you didn't or that it is just a saying or whatever justification you want to use) is appropriate.

reply to post by Leonidas

If you had said "European" you would have been more accurate. Post Columbian pandemics and genocide practically wiped out the natives, but the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and later British and French are responsible. NOT Americans.

So Little Crow, Black Hawk, Tecumseh, Red Cloud, Sitting Bull, Cochise, Crazy Horse and Geronimo fought the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, British and French. Not the US army.

Not according to this:

listosaur.com...

Amazingly these guys along with all of their warriors somehow survived the pandemics that were supposed to have killed off all the Indians and they inflicted a bit of damage themselves on the US army over the years. NOT the Spanish (except for Geronimo) or the Italian, Portuguese, British or French armies. Except for Tecumseh who fought with the British in 1812 against US Governor William Henry Harrison whom he hated with a passion and who ended up killing him.

You wanted accuracy, you got it. And that's not even close to the whole story.

Originally posted by Freeborn

 

What has happened to the Natives of North America is heartbreaking and criminal.

Agreed.

But to call it a genocide by Americans is just wrong.

Again, agreed.

What do you want to call it then if not "genocide"? Give me another word for 30 wars the US government has fought against Native Americans.

11 of them lasted more than 10 years each, on average. Americans (not "Europeans") won every single one. Americans benefited from every single one - but somehow they manage to instill in your psyche that "we" were provoked by the bad enemy and had to "defend" ourselves. We are sorry but it wasn't really our fault. Brainwashing.

I can also provide you a list of 100 massacres committed - by Americans - between 1810 and 1890, 80 years. Languages disappeared, cultures destroyed, populations decimated. Btw, How many of the victims were civilian? All?

I understand that it comes as a shock to you. I empathize with you in that aspect. But, think about it objectively. This is just a forum, it will not cause anybody to pay anything. And I am not about to argue if it was the worst, or the second worst.

Now, give me your word.

Originally posted by Khaleesi

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Leonidas

 

What has happened to the Natives of North America is heartbreaking and criminal.

But to call it a genocide by Americans is just wrong.

If you had said "European" you would have been more accurate. Post Columbian pandemics and genocide practically wiped out the natives, but the Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, and later British and French are responsible. NOT Americans.

Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. This is self-delusion.

I thought what he posted was quite accurate. I don't think calling him a liar (please don't say you didn't or that it is just a saying or whatever justification you want to use) is appropriate.

How is blaming the Portuguese and "NOT Americans" not a lie? The 30 different wars that I quoted all happened under AMERICAN PRESIDENTS, not Portuguese or Italian ones.