Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

Originally posted by wmd_2008

 

50 million were did you get that from

3rd sentence in the page I linked.............

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

 

2 BILLION INDIANS? You do realize that only recently the population of India has just reached the 1 billion mark, only in the last 10 years. Given that the British lost it in 1947,...you do realize that this is mathematically impossible, not to mention the Indian people would have had an extremely severe population crash. According to wikipedia, the population of India increased from 100 million in 1700 to 300 million in 1920.......kinda blows a hole in your "fact checking" source, who openly states they have an agenda and a strong bias against white people.

I love it how people complain about numbers without then providing the correct one.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


And I love it when people accept ridiculous claims without fact6 checking first.

British Raj Famine

Try closer to 60 million.

Not to mention not all those famines and deaths were solely the responsibility of the British. The Indian cultural system and way of doing things had a lot to do with it as well. It was a society heavily entrenched in caste, after all.

Originally posted by Metallicus
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.

I was born in the 1960s and didn't have anything to do with it...I also didn't have anything to do with the slaves. My relatives still lived in Germany until the 1930s and sorry to say they didn't have anything to do with it either.

What exactly is your point? Should I still be angry with the Romans for enslaving my long lost relatives? I am responsible only for my actions and my life. I am more concerned with the problems of today. At least with those I can actually work towards a solution.

I agree, "WE" didn't have a damn thing to do with this, "I" take responsibility ONLY for my own actions. I'm not going to feel guilty for other people's misdeeds

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


You noted that many presidents were involved in the extermination\genocide of the Native Americans. I think this deserves further mention. I realize history is often rewritten to suit the teller of the tale, but there is irrefutable evidence to support your statement.

Truman was probably the first president that even acknowledged Native Americans as U.S. "citizens".

Abraham Lincoln, the Great Emancipator, was responsible for atrocities against the Sioux that would shock most people.

Here's a couple quotes that demonstrate how some of our prezzes regarded the natives.

"I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth."
Teddy Roosevelt


"Indian's and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho' they differ in shape."
George Washington


Another despicable situation is the way Native Americans were treated in film and literature for a hundred years.
Nearly 4000 films were made depicting the natives as savages. As if the actual treatment of the natives wasn't enough, they were annihilated on film over and over.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


I, too, wonder about your numbers. The wikipedia article says that current common wisdom is that there were 50 million natives in THE AMERICAS not in America, although some sources suggest that the number might have been as high as 100 million. But this is for both South and North America, and North America includes Canada and Mexico.

A lot of these people died from diseases brought over unintentionally by the European explorers. Howard Zinn, in his People's History of the U.S. writes that about 18 million, or 95% of the indigenous population died of disease before colonization really began. In addition you seem to be blaming proto-'Murikens for all of this and it was the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, French and British that started the colonizing, and clearly the early massive, intentional killing and/or enslavement of natives was by the Spanish and Portuguese. But even the conquistadors had a lot of their work done for them by disease.

In fact, the British tried to restrain their colonists from moving further westwards, and had treaties with the Indians. This was actually one of the reasons the colonists were irked by British rule -- because they were kept from further westward expansion. It was only after the US became a country that the large-scale ethnic cleansing of the Indians began in the territories of the US.

I'm certainly not denying that the United States conducted genocide and ethnic cleansing against the native peoples, primarily in the 19th century, and probably killed millions, but you are overstating the numbers and putting too much blame on the US alone.

Originally posted by Metallicus
Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.

I was born in the 1960s and didn't have anything to do with it...I also didn't have anything to do with the slaves. My relatives still lived in Germany until the 1930s and sorry to say they didn't have anything to do with it either.

What exactly is your point? Should I still be angry with the Romans for enslaving my long lost relatives? I am responsible only for my actions and my life. I am more concerned with the problems of today. At least with those I can actually work towards a solution.

You are correct, in fact, none of us were born then, and I see your point in regards to the OP's thread.

Unfortunately, I see it as a mentality rather than a time frame, or a certain group of people oppressing another.

Look at the money and greed trail, then see where it leads.

Ask yourself this are similar things happening today?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Metallicus

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't feel guilty.

You should be sorry. We are talking about millions of people killed, entire civilizations wiped out, by your ancestors and mine.

And you don't even ask yourself why?

Maybe you have never been on the "other side" of history.

Your ancestors maybe; mine? not at all.



History should be reflected upon to prevent similar atrocities in the future. You shouldn't feel bad about things you cannot control or change; just ensure it doesn't happen again.

I've never killed anyone, never plan to. I will not 'feel sorry' for these things. I can empathize with the ones left and the loss of the culture. I can see the acts for what they were, atrocities.


You need to evaluate your priorities. I believe that is the point some are trying to make for you. You scream about this past disgrace; but personal freedoms and ethnic discrimination happening today is off your radar in this thread.

See, if your premise of the thread was to tie in the past with the present; then you have a solid point on trying to get people 'up in arms' and to act in a positive way to prevent similar things happening again.

What we see now is the alphabets treating the people like the enemy. We have all those of a specific religion painted as 'evil'. We have lots of things to worry about today; not so much to worry or be sorry about for things we didn't participate in.


To claim people should be sorry because you feel guilt is arrogant and selfish. This 'new' topic for you has been acknowledged and felt and dealt with by most people who've dabbled at all in history and have any critical thinking skills at all. Discussing it without trying to evoke shame is fine; but you just want to 'blame and shame', literally wanting people to feel bad about something.

Meter your passion with respect for others. You should never desire another human to feel terrible about things that they had no way to influence the event. That is a form of manipulation and control. It is a dirty way to treat another person and nothing good can come of it.

Instead of trying to inspire a negative feeling from things of the past; try to find ways to make a positive future out of the knowledge of the past.

Do Americans actually take historical responsibility for any of their own actions (other than erroneously claiming they won the World Wars single-handedly) or do they just obfuscate and blame others and make excuses?

Despite that, what exactly is the point of this thread? Not much is gained by saying one genocide is infinitely worse than all the others.

Yes Native Americans suffered and in some cases still suffer. Americans are primarily responsible for this shameful episode and it's generally well acknowledged - despite the fact there are a lot of dismissive comments from Americans along the lines of "well it was nothing to do with me." etc - that doesn't negate the facts of what your country or ancestors did though...

well... technically it wasnt americans who killed off the natives. there were no "americans" then. unless you mean the natives themselves.


on another note. are conquered people from other nations called "native (country)"?
arent the native americans just americans, and everyone else some euro/asian/african-american?

reply to post by ColeYounger

You are quoting examples of brainwashing.... they worked.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

 

Try closer to 60 million.

Not to mention not all those famines and deaths were solely the responsibility of the British.

60 is still greater than 47. But when you're talking millions.... I hope you get my point now.

When the number of zeros is correct, lets not argue about the number in front.

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist

 

Instead of trying to inspire a negative feeling from things of the past....

Excuse me, I have no idea how this relates to the topic. It is not about feelings...

FYI, we don't study history to invoke feelings.

Originally posted by MrInquisitive

 

I, too, wonder about your numbers.

Then give me correct numbers, IYO.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Here in the US, whole-sale slaughter of Native people went on for more than a century, incuding about 20 Presidents' administrations. And we, today, celebrate those Presidents!

Once we had killed most of them, we shoved the rest into prisons, that we call "reservations".

As an American I am not happy to write this. But I do because it is the truth.

Yet, despite the staggering number, America gets a pass. It is glossed over, it had to be done. It wasn't out of hatred. Settlers were forced, they had no choice but to "defend" themselves. Did the Natives need to be killed for the betterment of the world?

Americans committed the worst genocide in world history and to this day, not only are we not accepting the blame for it, we are not even accused of it commonly. For some reason, everybody else in the world feels the same way, it is okay for 20 of our Presidents to collectively committ the worst genocide in human history. It is okay that we cut off their scalp and be rewarded for it.

-Firstly, Native Americans were scalping the British and the Colonists during night raids,and it was rather common.

-Do you expect me, individually, as an American, to take responsibility for the actions of other men who have been dead for over a hundred years?
- Who do you expect you bite the bullet on this one? Who is going to take blame? The United States as a whole? The State in which the crime was committed? The current President? The next President?

Yes, the atrocities happened. What is Russia doing about the millions Stalin killed? What is Germany doing about all of the Jews Hitler killed?

Astounding how stupid the whole world is collectively. We are smart individually but like a Zombie collectively. Can anybody explain this?

The Whole World isn't stupid. You are asking the 'United States', which at this point in time includes the Native Americans, and millions more who have immigrated here decades after these atrocities, to somehow take the blame. What do you expect? I think you are more or less p.o'd about something that happened generations ago and that no one at this point in time should be held accountable for.

Should humanity seek justice, place blame, and hold accountable a modern government for the actions of Genghis Khan or Julius Caesar?

Its ok to be upset about the atrocities, I don't know anyone who isn't shocked upon first hearing about these things. But realize that we collectively inherited this mess, and you too are an American. If you so deeply hold conviction for your belief that the U.S. should be held accountable still, that you yourself should be going out there and apologizing to those affected.

I do not feel guilt for actions that my ancestors didn't take part in.

Originally posted by Kram09
Yes Native Americans suffered and in some cases still suffer. Americans are primarily responsible for this shameful episode and it's generally well acknowledged - despite the fact there are a lot of dismissive comments from Americans along the lines of "well it was nothing to do with me." etc - that doesn't negate the facts of what your country or ancestors did though...

So, with this line of thinking, following it through to the conclusion, let's set up a hypothetical situation to illustrate what your suggesting:

*Start Hypothetical* Your Great Grandfather was convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Now, to make this hypothetical to work, this prison is co-ed and sexual relations (as long as they are consensual) are allowed. With your line of thought, your Grandfather should also be stuck in this prison. Your father as well, as well as you, your child, your grandchild, your great grandchild etc. Even though they have done nothing at all, they need to bear the burden of guilt and punishment as well. *End Hypothetical*

I agree, we need to learn the past atrocities, but shouldn't focus on who did them or to whom, as it is irrelevant. What is relevant is the mindset that allowed these incidents in history to take place. Remove those thoughts from your mind, attempt to educate those against that mindset, and speak out when it continues today. Don't attack people or accuse people of being guilty of things they personally did not do, but understand what is going on and if that path is beginning to be taken again, speak out and try to put a stop to it. I for one do not feel guilty for anything I did not do. This does not mean I'm not mindful of the past, and see where these different directions are leading, but I'm not going to go around apologizing for someone else's actions that I personally did not do. And you will be damned sure that I will actually stand up to those who want to accuse me and persecute me for my "guilt" of actions others commit.

Originally posted by Kram09
Do Americans actually take historical responsibility for any of their own actions (other than erroneously claiming they won the World Wars single-handedly) or do they just obfuscate and blame others and make excuses?

Despite that, what exactly is the point of this thread? Not much is gained by saying one genocide is infinitely worse than all the others.

Yes Native Americans suffered and in some cases still suffer. Americans are primarily responsible for this shameful episode and it's generally well acknowledged - despite the fact there are a lot of dismissive comments from Americans along the lines of "well it was nothing to do with me." etc - that doesn't negate the facts of what your country or ancestors did though...

You are right, nothing will negate the facts of what my country did. I still fail to see why the modern U.S., which is made up of individuals, should take the blame. How did these individuals TODAY have an impact on the crimes committed hundreds of years ago?

Originally posted by Kram09

 

Despite that, what exactly is the point of this thread? Not much is gained by saying one genocide is infinitely worse than all the others.

My primary "point" was to acknowledge the truth in order to be able to learn from it. This is true for any other country also.

It's always cute whenever somebody points out a 400 year old genocide, the argument ends up not being about it intentionally happening, but whose numbers fit history better.

Pathetic.

Let's remember that there was a genocide, it certainly did happen and AMERICA isn't responsible for it.

The british are. Them and the other colonial nations of the time. But America is entirely different.

~Tenth

Originally posted by SlyGuy

 

I do not feel guilt for actions that my ancestors didn't take part in.

Have you reasd any posts in this thread? They all say the same (almost).

Don't tell me anything about Egypt's Pharaohs - if you want me to feel "guilty". This is silly.