Carthaginians Africans??.

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Nothing P.C about it make some uninformed statement and yes I can put the slap down on you real quick because neither he nor you thought deeply about what you post before posting.

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

None of those paintings you posted look authentic to the periods at all.

Really?? have you visited the Asian Museum in San Francisco??

Juan Garrido (left) (Diego Duran, Historia de las Indias de Nueve Espana e Islas de la Tierra Firme, 1581)

Ya a 1581 Spaniard dressed as a British soldier of late 1800's. That is a freakin joke.

Originally posted by MuzzleBreak
The dark skinned Nubian peoples that had definite importance in Egypt in the 7th-8th centuries BC were not the same as the Sub-Saharan Black races. The facial features, hair, and societal development were all quite different from those of the sub-Saharan races.

Mitochondrial DNA testing has been done on some ancient Meroe Nubia samples, and the incidence of specific markers of most Sub-Saharan populations is present at less than half the expected level. These samples from the Meroe period are about 500 years after the time of the Nubian Pharoahs of Egypt.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

All the coins and jewelry and history of Carthage suggests they were Phoenician/Hebrew, probably related to ancient Greeks, and no definite evidence of Nubian (and certainly not Sub-Saharan) influence. Carthage was founded from the sea at least a century before Piye became the first of the Nubian Pharoahs. The people present when Queen Dido founded Carthage were likely very similar to The Berbers of today, less the Arab genetic influence.

edit on 6-8-2013 by MuzzleBreak because: (no reason given)

edit on 6-8-2013 by MuzzleBreak because: (no reason given)

Nubians are an ethnic group not a catch all for everyone living below the Sahara in any case as I mentioned before the fore runners to the Carthaginians the Phoenician had considerable Nile Valley genetic and cultural input going all the way back before the first dynasty matter of fact to the Natufians see Christopher Ehret, Bar-Yosef and C. Loring Brace on the matter..French man S Gesell although dated is not exactly a waste of time either ,when I said the Carthaginians were heavily African in culture I wasn't kidding. www.beazley.ox.ac.uk... go here in terms of genetics see above, I did mentioned the Berbers a language group btw and their mixed Afro-Eurasian biology but African culturally and geographically.scroll back above. The signet rings are of Carthaginian origins found throughout their colonies on both side of the Med,I knew that many of the popular images of what a Carthaginian may have looked like but there is a heck of alot more out there that was just not widely published.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Hey since you are using the African plate as 'producer of people who African' have you looked at where the African plate goes in the north?

Yeah much of Sicily is African too so you can claim the Mafia as being African, also when the Normans conquered Sicily they too became African....so that means, yes when the other Normans captured England all of England became African too.....

Heck when Rome conquered Carthage and Numidia they became African...hey and the Adria plate which makes up the Adriatic and parts of Italy was once/is part of the African plate and is still attached, therefore parts of Italy - besides Sicily are African too. Might as well claim Rome as African, certainly Venice.

Not to worry Spider the above isn't serious....but heck why not go for he gold?

edit on 6/8/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

Good point that's why I like communicating with you ...star!!

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Nothing P.C about it make some uninformed statement and yes I can put the slap down on you real quick because neither he nor you thought deeply about what you post before posting.

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

None of those paintings you posted look authentic to the periods at all.

Really?? have you visited the Asian Museum in San Francisco??

Juan Garrido (left) (Diego Duran, Historia de las Indias de Nueve Espana e Islas de la Tierra Firme, 1581)

Ya a 1581 Spaniard dressed as a British soldier of late 1800's. That is a freakin joke.

world4.eu...
Yeah and no joke

Fol.208v Meeting of Hernando Cortes Diego Duran /b]
prints.culturelabel.com...
NOW WHAT!!!!

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by votan
the founding fathers of the usa were african too as were the spanish conquistators that invaded south american.

Wow this is like karaoke.
You make a request and he comes up with politically correct artwork made to order.

Nothing P.C about it make some uninformed statement and yes I can put the slap down on you real quick because neither he nor you thought deeply about what you post before posting.

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

None of those paintings you posted look authentic to the periods at all.

Really?? have you visited the Asian Museum in San Francisco??

Juan Garrido (left) (Diego Duran, Historia de las Indias de Nueve Espana e Islas de la Tierra Firme, 1581)

Ya a 1581 Spaniard dressed as a British soldier of late 1800's. That is a freakin joke.

world4.eu...
Yeah and no joke

Fol.208v Meeting of Hernando Cortes Diego Duran /b]
prints.culturelabel.com...
NOW WHAT!!!!

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: just because

Cartoons drawn to prop up Afrocentrism, how about showing some Afrocentric bugs bunny or mickey mouse, it would be the same thing.

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Hey since you are using the African plate as 'producer of people who African' have you looked at where the African plate goes in the north?

Yeah much of Sicily is African too so you can claim the Mafia as being African, also when the Normans conquered Sicily they too became African....so that means, yes when the other Normans captured England all of England became African too.....

Heck when Rome conquered Carthage and Numidia they became African...hey and the Adria plate which makes up the Adriatic and parts of Italy was once/is part of the African plate and is still attached, therefore parts of Italy - besides Sicily are African too. Might as well claim Rome as African, certainly Venice.

Not to worry Spider the above isn't serious....but heck why not go for he gold?

edit on 6/8/13 by Hanslune because: (no reason given)

Good point that's why I like communicating with you ...star!!

edit on 6-8-2013 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)

Apparently the Afrocentric brainwashing you are a part of left no room for learning to recognize satire.

reply to post by TinfoilTP


Understand satire enough.thank you...
klik the links stop spouting nonsense learn something Deny Ignorance!!!..

You got nothing to teach??,,yawn!!

reply to post by Spider879


Hmmm so just for clarification, would you suggest a Canadian born Afro-Canadian man whose distant relatives were taken from West Africa to the Americas should considered the Carthinginians as part of his cultural heritage?

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Hmmm so just for clarification, would you suggest a Canadian born Afro-Canadian man whose distant relatives were taken from West Africa to the Americas should considered the Carthinginians as part of his cultural heritage?

No unless he carries Carthaginian culture and speak Punic which is impossible,as that culture and language is long dead..I'll make it personal I am reasonably sure I am partially of Akan ancestry by the way of the Maroons of Jamaica on my mom's side,however I am not Akan do not speak the language except some words left over in Jamaican patois and some names that's definitely Akan given to some of my cousins, I know how to feel Jamaican as I spent much of my time moving back and forth from the U.S..I also know how to feel very American given my long residence and family connections. and all this is very recent history not going back 4 or 5 centuries removed from my Akan ancestors.

Originally posted by Spider879

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Hmmm so just for clarification, would you suggest a Canadian born Afro-Canadian man whose distant relatives were taken from West Africa to the Americas should considered the Carthinginians as part of his cultural heritage?

No unless he carries Carthaginian culture and speak Punic which is impossible,as that culture and language is long dead..I'll make it personal I am reasonably sure I am partially of Akan ancestry by the way of the Maroons of Jamaica on my mom's side,however I am not Akan do not speak the language except some words left over in Jamaican patois and some names that's definitely Akan given to some of my cousins, I know how to feel Jamaican as I spent much of my time moving back and forth from the U.S..I also know how to feel very American given my long residence and family connections. and all this is very recent history not going back 4 or 5 centuries removed from my Akan ancestors.

Get a genetics test, they will show you on a map exactly where your ancestors came from...no need for speculation

Originally posted by Spider879
but any quick study will tell us that they came from the Levant and so could not be Africans I have long looked into this and here is what I found.

Well last I knew, genetically Levantians have the "red head" gene within their gene pool. As did Carthaginians.

Also with regards to burial practices, Red Heads in the Levant excarnated their dead, which means that the flesh is removed after death, bones are cleaned and bundled. Then the skull was separated from the bones and usually polished and put in a shrine. Levantians would sometimes bury the bundled excarnated bones under their sleep mats or they would anchor them in the construction of a home or put the bones in a pit. Levantians were also known to plaster the excarnated skulls with white plaster and painted their heads with red ochre paint for the red hair.

Carthaginians also had the burial practice of excarnation. It's not an African burial practice.

With regards to religion, Carthaginians worshipped Tanit which is a Levantian goddess. Most of the Carthaginian deities are founded in Levantian religion.

Doesn't really make a difference if you find a few sculpts of features that look black. Cause Levantians mixed with the natives and light skin and red hair would be recessive traits that would have been replaced by dominant black hair genes.

Dominant genes replacing recessive genes when groups mix doesn't change the Levantian origin of Carthaginians.

reply to post by MapMistress



Levantines tomb of Beni Hassan not a repo

Well last I knew, genetically Levantians have the "red head" gene within their gene pool. As did Carthaginians.

Source please.

Africans with hair treated with ochre of 3kyrs ago


Africans with hair treated with ochre today
However I am not going to have a slug fest as to weather or not some ancient Levantines could have inherited red hair from some where,at sometime during their long history I am not for that purist thingy,my point how ever is that they were heavily influenced both biologically and culturally by Nile Valley folks from the earliest time and there is no denying that,If you pls could go back to page1 and klik or read the link on genetics

BONES OF CANNIBALS: A PALESTINE RIDDLE
Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.
New York Times 1857; Aug 4, 1932; ProQuest Historical Newspapers The New York Times (1851 - 2003)
pg. 21

ATE BODIES OF ENEMIES
Men, Short of Stature, Burned Bones of Dead After Burial, London Session Hears.

TEETH OF WOMEN DRAWN
Linking relics to Burnt Skeletons from Ur scientist speculate an old cremation custom.

Wireless to NEW YORK TIMES London Aug. 3

Seven or eight thousand years ago in what geologist call modern times a race of negroid cannibals lived In Palestine, burned the bones of their dead after burial, and devoured the bodies of their enemies.

Skulls and thighbones of this race were unearthed within the last four years, first at Shukbah near Jerusalem and later in caves at Mount Carmel, and because they puzzled the excavators who found them they received the new name “Natufians.”

Today the first authoritative account of them was given by Sir Arthur Keith to the congress of Prehistoric and Protohistoric Sciences and showed them to be one of the greatest riddles of archaeology.

They were clearly a Negroid people, said Sir Arthur, with wide faces flat- noses and long large heads.

They were short of stature 5 feet 3 or 4 inches tall-and their thighs and legs were remarkably strong. While their arms and shoulders were weak.

Alone Among prehistoric peoples they had a custom of extracting the two upper central incisor teeth of their women. Jagged holes in the fronts of their skulls indicate that they ate human brains.

Now off-course that's an out dated view but what the 1932 article was referring to was the excarnated form of burial which may have well developed in the Levant or else where but was mistaken for cannibalism but to the point dark skinned broad featured folks of probable African origins were not unusual in the Levant all the way up to Turkey from the earliest of times..see Bar-Yosef and others.

Tanit is non other that Neith a delta goddess of Kemet matter of fact the Carthaginians were heavily in Nile Valley religion for they worshipped Horus Isis Bes among others apart from what they developed themselves and sometimes merged with

Isis holds flower; Horus faces away; incense-burner. III

Ibiza no. 43 (Ibiza 3811). BL;EXnb;PB. Isis holds flowers; Horus stands with disc crown. V

TParis, BN, Pauvert no. 39 (Castagnini Coll.). Hölbl, Sard no. 163. BH;PB. With uraei.

From page 1 this was part of my conclusion:

so the question was Carthage African culturally?...the ans is yes and heavily so but not absolutely so. and that goes for biology as well..they started off Afro-Eurasian..in the land of Canaan was dominated by Black/Kemetic culture and Blood for over a 1000yrs..split-off and went to North-West Africa and linked up with an African people who carried an African Culture but had the both Dna from East African Fathers and Eurasian Mothers...again just how and even when that came about is not entirely clear.

Originally posted by Spider879
so the question was Carthage African culturally?...the ans is yes and heavily so but not absolutely so. and that goes for biology as well..they started off Afro-Eurasian..in the land of Canaan was dominated by Black/Kemetic culture and Blood for over a 1000yrs..split-off and went to North-West Africa and linked up with an African people who carried an African Culture but had the both Dna from East African Fathers and Eurasian Mothers...again just how and even when that came about is not entirely clear.

You are stretching the data until it screams for mercy, please stop, lol

So your idea is that people not in Africa have contact with the AE then they become cultural 'African'? Give us if you would a percentage break down for that would you would you say 1%? Since we all (AFAWNK) came for Africa that should mean we are ALL Africans and no more need for you doing so on a piece by piece nature.

Why doesn't the opposite occur, the Greeks came to AE and had cities and colonies there why didn't Africa become 'European' then if culture from an outside source influences them?

So if people who are not 'African' come to Africa they become African but what happens when Africans leave Africa do they become whatever randomly assigned geographical term they live in?

So are Black Americans culturally North American or African? I forget what your answer was for the Greek colonist at Cyrene were they African too?

reply to post by Hanslune

You are stretching the data until it screams for mercy, please stop, lol

So your idea is that people not in Africa have contact with the AE then they become cultural 'African'? Give us if you would a percentage break down for that would you would you say 1%? Since we all (AFAWNK) came for Africa that should mean we are ALL Africans and no more need for you doing so on a piece by piece nature.

Why doesn't the opposite occur, the Greeks came to AE and had cities and colonies there why didn't Africa become 'European' then if culture from an outside source influences them?

So if people who are not 'African' come to Africa they become African but what happens when Africans leave Africa do they become whatever randomly assigned geographical term they live in?

So are Black Americans culturally North American or African? I forget what your answer was for the Greek colonist at Cyrene were they African too?

My point is they were atleast partially Africans even before they leave their home land in the Levant both biologically and culturally ,the Greeks were not.

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Hanslune

 

You are stretching the data until it screams for mercy, please stop, lol

So your idea is that people not in Africa have contact with the AE then they become cultural 'African'? Give us if you would a percentage break down for that would you would you say 1%? Since we all (AFAWNK) came for Africa that should mean we are ALL Africans and no more need for you doing so on a piece by piece nature.

Why doesn't the opposite occur, the Greeks came to AE and had cities and colonies there why didn't Africa become 'European' then if culture from an outside source influences them?

So if people who are not 'African' come to Africa they become African but what happens when Africans leave Africa do they become whatever randomly assigned geographical term they live in?

My point is they were atleast partially Africans even before they leave their home land in the Levant both biologically and culturally ,the Greeks were not.

So to become African they have to have prior 'African' contact before they come to Africa - if they don't they never become African?

Say what? lol

So are Black Americans culturally North American or African? I forget what your answer was for the Greek colonist at Cyrene were they African too?

reply to post by Hanslune

So to become African they have to have prior 'African' contact before they come to Africa - if they don't they never become African?

Say what? lol

So are Black Americans culturally North American or African? I forget what your answer was for the Greek colonist at Cyrene were they African too?

More than just a few Africans living in geographically close Levant which I believe is an extension of Africa that's why I sighted Ofer Bar-Yosef archaeologist and you can add to that Christopher Ehret linguist and Anthropologist C. Loring Brace.

As for Black Americans (hope you are not talking about just U.S.A Black) they certainly have cultural links to various cultures back on the continent,with time they may well be fully assimilated into so called melting pot.

The Greeks at Cyrene would remain Greeks until they were assimilated by their neighbors. in any case the Greeks were not culturally or biologically Africans before they they set up shop in Libya, but the Phoenicians forerunners of the Carthaginians were genetically,linguistically and culturally linked to North East Africans at-least partially and that's the difference.

Originally posted by Spider879

which I believe is an extension of Africa that's

No it isn't its a rock the artifical name of Africa was applied to a geographical location - it has no magical powers to cause people associated with said rock to become associated with that geographical location.

As for Black Americans (hope you are not talking about just U.S.A Black) they certainly have cultural links to various cultures back on the continent,with time they may well be fully assimilated into so called melting pot.

So you are saying that Blacks in the Americas are Africans even if they are born in the Americas while those born outside of Africa become African if there ancestors somehow had contact of any kind with an African sometime in the past? Hmmmmm

The Greeks at Cyrene would remain Greeks until they were assimilated by their neighbors. in any case the Greeks were not culturally or biologically Africans before they they set up shop in Libya, but the Phoenicians forerunners of the Carthaginians were genetically,linguistically and culturally linked to North East Africans at-least partially and that's the difference.

...but using your logic - as I understand it - since they were 'Europeans' and their cultures effected the locals and they had domination over the area of Africa for long periods of time (centuries) why would the Blacks who went to the Americas not then be European, ie 'Americans'?


Phoenicians - contact with AE Africans who dominate an area - go to Africa and they in your world become Africans, despite being Asians (technically)

Greeks comes to Africa dominate the area - so shouldn't Africans who leave African and go to a European dominated area then be Europeans?

Ya really need to drop that 'rocks project culture affliation thingy'......just sayin'

reply to post by Hanslune

So you are saying that Blacks in the Americas are Africans even if they are born in the Americas while those born outside of Africa become African if there ancestors somehow had contact of any kind with an African sometime in the past?

No I am saying they are descendants of Africans especially when they have cultural and biological links.

Phoenicians - contact with AE Africans who dominate an area - go to Africa and they in your world become Africans, despite being Asians (technically)

Greeks comes to Africa dominate the area - so shouldn't Africans who leave African and go to a European dominated area then be Europeans?

If you looked at the post carefully I am saying that the folks who lived in the Levant were partially African descendants even before there was a later Nile Valley push in that area at the time of the Pharaohs,that they landed in N.W Africa and mixed with the locals there who also carries African and Eurasian genetic stuff produced the Carthaginians.

That depends on how assimilated they are culturally and linguistically to Europe such issues are usually solved by time.

Ya really need to drop that 'rocks project culture affliation thingy'......just sayin'

....

reply to post by Spider879


Not to belabour the point but everyone then is formerly African (AFAWKN)! So that means Greeks, Mongols everybody down to your Inuits and Polynesians....are African

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Not to belabour the point but everyone then is formerly African (AFAWKN)! So that means Greeks, Mongols everybody down to your Inuits and Polynesians....are African

Only in the broadest sense of the term everyone is East African.