John Mack's Abduction

Originally posted by UncleVinnys
I don't need to argue my point - about there being unseen worlds.
That's not my job.
I find that people who do not believe in anything but a materialistic world are eventually
given the experience they need, be it a deja vu episode, a visit from a deceased relative,
a spiritual epiphany, an alien encounter, or whatever.

Fortunately, I've had several in my lifetime, and it makes me sad for the godless
materialists - so well educated and intelligent, yet blind to the blessings of life - who
are "religiously" worshiping their stone deity of chemicals and trying to push their
cosmically bankrupt world view onto the rest of us.

Blessings to you - - you will either be right or happy, but not both.
I await the day when the light dawns and you think back to that weirdo on ATS
who was so gently trying to enlighten you.

I find your remarks offensive and arrogant.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian


Is that what you read? I think he left it open for some other possible unknown psychological phenomenon.

Pretty much, yeah. He went through the common conventional ones and explained why none of them are satisfactory explanations. He also expressed several times how the alien phenomena is one that seems to span the subjective-objective gap, or the psychological vs physical gap, meaning there probably isn't some solely psychological explanation for it.

I'm not saying he is definitely, right. then again, neither was he. But, he made a damn good argument.

True, but from his Passport book it was pretty obvious the experiencers felt some kind of integration there - i.e., between the material and the psyche. For the most part there was an affinity towards the abductors and in several cases the subject felt he was "one of them."
One of them underwent some kind of procedure where he felt one with the universe, bringing up the Eastern religious concept of Unity.

Hard to fathom, because if you adhere to the beliefs of the subjects then it's like
anything-can-happen territory, and reasoning, laws of logic, laws of physics have to be
put on hold, and most of us are unwilling to accept that.

reply to post by ZetaRediculian


As a former materialist who is now just perplexed, the fact of "unseen worlds" doesn't necessarily point the way to a god dogma.

True, it leaves the world of "spiritual phenomena" less ridiculous, but it hardly answers anything in itself, just opens more doors for inquiry.

I'll admit my speculations are weird enough to have me put under observation for a few weeks at one of "those" facilities, but I hardly embrace dogmatic religion as an answer... I view it more as a cop out in regards to weird questions.

But that's just me... but there's no denying that meeting a few invisible people sure does make one's moorings frayed.

Originally posted by UncleVinnys
I just wonder why so many people are focused on denying any kind of spiritual reality?!
They want to reduce everything to a cold, heartless, chemical God that can be defined with mathematical formulas.
Whoops! Sorry! That don't work!

Instead, as many of the abductees claim, there is a connection with these entities.
Some even claim to BE these foreign entities, and they have decided to incarnate
as human to help bridge that gap. We are witnessing an awakening

The awaking to this connection comes in many forms, such as dreams, meditative visions, near-death experiences, and religious epiphanies. These represent portals, or rips in the veil that blocks our awareness of the real world.

I always find it deeply interesting how the ET subject can be integrated at the emotional and analytical level. I once embraced the ET question in a sort of philosophical cradle of my personal spirituality. I had lucid recall of a strange, semi-surreal experience which led me to believe that I may have been party to an abduction. After consultation with a ufologist who had learned regression - he actually convinced me not to undergo hypnosis. But I was also religious and somewhat into spiritualisms, and therefore forced to interpret my experience through that cultural filter. There have been a number of cases where folks having unusual conscious memories, have sought regression by UFO investigators, which in turn has opened up details leaving them feeling victimized and with a long list of unresolvable questions.

As I've mentioned the well trained Bostonian psychiatrist, Dr. Benjamin Simon, did the Hill regression. He was extremely skeptical of the existence of ETs and UFOs as alien vehicles. These days we have an array of people who qualify themselves as Ufologists, hypnotists, who have no medical or scientific background, performing mind altering procedures to prove that their personal beliefs are real. There is a plethora of media interspersed with illusive assertions, assumptions tailor made for individual belief systems. Again, this is very ancestral and communal.

Here's my struggle. I personally believe that there are physical, humanoid extraterrestrials visiting our planet and sometimes interacting with humans. I believe that their are long term scientific projects being conducted regarding earth and mankind. There has been a huge effort to focus on what is regarded as inhumane treatment of human subjects, abductees. The majority of the work seems to emphasize the positive (benevolence) or negative (malevolent) attributes connected with oneness of alleged ET abductees, which appears to be nothing more than the mailable nature of "traumatic bonding", as in the Stockholm Syndrome. If this is the case than ETs simply use the terror of high strangeness to obtain cooperation of their human subjects. Does that make them evil or us simple? In ufology the correlation with Human scientists stalking and capturing endangered species to obtain biological samples is compared to the experiences of human abductees. Would it be as difficult for ETs to garner our cooperation as it would be for us to convince animals to do so? I think not, as we probably have more in common with non-terrestrial humanoids. They communicate with us in our language. But rather, they refrain from explaining the "bigger picture" because it would be unbelievable or unacceptable in our state of cultural conditioning. The reasoning is that humans are intellectually dishonest. We over populate and pollute our environment at an alarming rate and yet continue to live as if nothing is wrong. We seem to have little concern for ourselves and none for future generations, who must certainly drink from the cesspool of a planet we are leaving in our path. The mythology then eulogizes the "terror and oneness" through spiritualisms that can be intellectualized and spun on a uniquely individual premise, and thus books are sold.

What is untypical about the Hill story, is the detail of Betty's account in describing her interactions with the person she describes as the "leader". There is a confluence of the senses, the sights and sounds on board the ship, an exchange of words, thoughts - between her and the leader. She describes being left alone in the examination room long enough to open a book with a strange language, then asking permission to keep the book as evidence of her experience. I find it extraordinary that Betty would have a contiguous string of memories such as this, as the result of suggestive fantasy. She was known as a simple-minded, uneducated home maker with no aspirations. And yet, her recall of events is amazingly sophisticated.

Originally posted by EthanT

Originally posted by EnPassant
I read that book some years ago. Mack really buys into the idea that aliens are wonderful spiritual beings here to help us. That there is a spiritual dimension to all this is beyond doubt but these beings exploit people and are not the benevolent beings Mack portrayed them to be, as evidenced by Bud Hopkins work. Everything they do is to serve their own agenda by exploiting human beings.

No doubt, it definitely seems like exploitation and morally ambiguous on the part of the aliens, at the very best. But, seems more complex than that too. Throughout many of the cases the abductees report a deep loving concern coming from the aliens during the experience. It's almost like what is immoral to us is no big deal to them. I don't know how being more advanced spiritually could ever make something like what they do okay, but is it possible. I don't know. It's very strange. But, the spiritual aspect seems like ti can be denied, as it ends up coming from almost every abductee that has worked through the issues somewhat.

I guess like liquidsmoke says, the best we can do is speculate, at this point.

i read recently that they need complete submission from their abductees and the 'love' involved might be a very submissive kind of love bordering on masochism (Strieber, Jim Sparks?)

g2v12 - Stockholm syndrome? Yes, that's a good point, Strieber and others fit this description.

Originally posted by EnPassant

g2v12 - Stockholm syndrome? Yes, that's a good point, Strieber and others fit this description.

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

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edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

Although I would have to think Stockholm Syndrome has to play a role at some point, I'm not sure it adds up for all cases either.

For example, the bonding is usually reported to come by looking into the eyes of the alien, which are reported as powerful and usually avoided. They feel the love, or connection, to the alien through a very powerful mental telepathy.

At the very least, it seems like a new and unique spin on Stockholm's Syndrome,

Originally posted by EthanT

Originally posted by EnPassant

g2v12 - Stockholm syndrome? Yes, that's a good point, Strieber and others fit this description.

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

Although I would have to think Stockholm Syndrome has to play a role at some point, I'm not sure it adds up for all cases either.

For example, the bonding is usually reported to come by looking into the eyes of the alien, which are reported as powerful and usually avoided. They feel the love, or connection, to the alien through a very powerful mental telepathy.

At the very least, it seems like a new and unique spin on Stockholm's Syndrome,

Whether its a new spin on the (SS) may be the result of how we read into the abductee's rendering of his/her account. Reverting (as always) to the Hill story, Betty was taped in her home in an ad-hock interview (www.youtube.com...) by folklorist, John Horrigan. She makes a few curious statements that sound like erroneous assumptions about UFOs. The series of interviews are quite interesting in which she talks about details not included in the original book.

Originally posted by g2v12

Whether its a new spin on the (SS) may be the result of how we read into the abductee's rendering of his/her account. Reverting (as always) to the Hill story, Betty was taped in her home in an ad-hock interview (www.youtube.com...) by folklorist, John Horrigan. She makes a few curious statements that sound like erroneous assumptions about UFOs. The series of interviews are quite interesting in which she talks about details not included in the original book.

edit on 4-8-2013 by g2v12 because: (no reason given)

No doubt, interpretation has to be considered. But, one way of trying to see past interpretational bias - whether it's from culture, memory, religion, age, etc - is to look for universal themes, or motifs within the various stories.

The eyes and the effects the eyes have are pretty darn consistent no matter who is telling the story. Likewise, with mental telepathy and the messages received regarding what we were talking about above.

Originally posted by EthanT

Originally posted by EnPassant

g2v12 - Stockholm syndrome? Yes, that's a good point, Strieber and others fit this description.

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

Although I would have to think Stockholm Syndrome has to play a role at some point, I'm not sure it adds up for all cases either.

For example, the bonding is usually reported to come by looking into the eyes of the alien, which are reported as powerful and usually avoided. They feel the love, or connection, to the alien through a very powerful mental telepathy.

At the very least, it seems like a new and unique spin on Stockholm's Syndrome,

The question is, can aliens abduct anyone at random? I don't think they can. Ann Druffel has written an extraordinary book* on how to resist abduction and she says these techniques work; the aliens can be resisted by determined individuals. Many abductees seem to have given themselves to the aliens even before birth. So the question is, how do people get tangled with these beings? Very often it seems to be folly of some kind or curiosity or desire for emotional rewards. They, like people who practice the occult, are getting involved with things they don't understand and once they are in they become attached to these beings through facination, 'love', submissiveness - all of the things that make human beings addicted to things. And yes, there is the element of psychic power emanating from the alien's eyes/minds. This seals the bargain and makes it difficult to escape.

*How to defend yourself against Alien Abduction

Originally posted by EnPassant

Originally posted by EthanT

Originally posted by EnPassant

g2v12 - Stockholm syndrome? Yes, that's a good point, Strieber and others fit this description.

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

Although I would have to think Stockholm Syndrome has to play a role at some point, I'm not sure it adds up for all cases either.

For example, the bonding is usually reported to come by looking into the eyes of the alien, which are reported as powerful and usually avoided. They feel the love, or connection, to the alien through a very powerful mental telepathy.

At the very least, it seems like a new and unique spin on Stockholm's Syndrome,

The question is, can aliens abduct anyone at random? I don't think they can. Ann Druffel has written an extraordinary book* on how to resist abduction and she says these techniques work; the aliens can be resisted by determined individuals. Many abductees seem to have given themselves to the aliens even before birth. So the question is, how do people get tangled with these beings? Very often it seems to be folly of some kind or curiosity or desire for emotional rewards. They, like people who practice the occult, are getting involved with things they don't understand and once they are in they become attached to these beings through facination, 'love', submissiveness - all of the things that make human beings addicted to things. And yes, there is the element of psychic power emanating from the alien's eyes/minds. This seals the bargain and makes it difficult to escape.

*How to defend yourself against Alien Abduction

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-8-2013 by EnPassant because: (no reason given)

All good points!

It seems like abductees also have the power to transform the experience. Almost as if how they respond to the aliens dictates to some extent (but not entirely) how the experience goes. The traumatic aspects seem to diminish and the a more open communication and relationship increases, as the experiencer works through it all.

In fact, it seems like that's the only level of control they do have.

Originally posted by EthanT

Originally posted by g2v12

Whether its a new spin on the (SS) may be the result of how we read into the abductee's rendering of his/her account. Reverting (as always) to the Hill story, Betty was taped in her home in an ad-hock interview (www.youtube.com...) by folklorist, John Horrigan. She makes a few curious statements that sound like erroneous assumptions about UFOs. The series of interviews are quite interesting in which she talks about details not included in the original book.

edit on 4-8-2013 by g2v12 because: (no reason given)

No doubt, interpretation has to be considered. But, one way of trying to see past interpretation bias - whether it's from culture, memory, religion, age, etc - is to look for universal themes, or motifs within the various stories.

The eyes and the effects the eyes have are pretty darn consistent no matter who is telling the story. Likewise, with mental telepathy and the messages received regarding what we were talking about above.

Yes, I see the factors of SS as well as the element of the eyes. But consistency could be the result of subconscious or cognitive influences by media reports or the suggestive scripting of amateur hypnotists.

There are patterns of story telling that become cliche in the social discussion. Whether or not they are accurate is very difficult to say. Many people simply believe what they have read or heard somewhere, and repeat it without compiling the data to back it up. These sub-themes take on a life of their own until the entire subject is obfuscated by the mythical narrative.

Of course it is common in the abduction stories to hear about powerful hypnotic influences that these beings use to control their human subjects. The abductees often intimate that mental influences come through their eyes or glancing into their eyes. The truth could be that their brains may be augmented with quantum chips that enable them to communicate telepathically and project mental, hypnotic influences, as opposed to the popular assumption that Greys and other ETs are born with innate telepathic capabilities as such.

I just read a book by a Finlandian abductee who claims that the ETs use brain augmentations that can transmit and receive thoughts through the quantum wave form of hydrogen molecules.

My point is that even the abductee interprets his own experience within a frame of reference that is out of sync with his unusual experience, not to mention the reality of the beings controlling him. The beings are very clandestine in their approach to their purposes possibly because they see us as irresponsible and thus unworthy of social inclusion, with few exceptions. Not because they have a condescending attitude toward the human race, but because we are immature. That's my personal opinion based on the data I've read. I think this explanation carries more potency than the idea that they dispassionately use subjects merely to enhance their biology.

Other than the how and why, I have no difficulty accepting the elements of telepathic suggestion and communication by ETs.

reply to post by UncleVinnys

True, but from his Passport book it was pretty obvious the experiencers felt some kind of integration there - i.e., between the material and the psyche. For the most part there was an affinity towards the abductors and in several cases the subject felt he was "one of them."
One of them underwent some kind of procedure where he felt one with the universe, bringing up the Eastern religious concept of Unity.

sounds like every other hallucinogenic experience

Originally posted by g2v12
I find it extraordinary that Betty would have a contiguous string of memories such as this, as the result of suggestive fantasy. She was known as a simple-minded, uneducated home maker with no aspirations. And yet, her recall of events is amazingly sophisticated.

I'm not certain where you are getting your information about Betty Hill, but by all indications she was a woman with a professional career (in possession of a Master's degree) in a mixed race marriage - hardly a common experience for a simple homemaker in the late 50s/early 60s.

en.wikipedia.org...
www.ufocasebook.com...

Originally posted by cuckooold

Originally posted by g2v12
I find it extraordinary that Betty would have a contiguous string of memories such as this, as the result of suggestive fantasy. She was known as a simple-minded, uneducated home maker with no aspirations. And yet, her recall of events is amazingly sophisticated.

I'm not certain where you are getting your information about Betty Hill, but by all indications she was a woman with a professional career (in possession of a Master's degree) in a mixed race marriage - hardly a common experience for a simple homemaker in the late 50s/early 60s.

en.wikipedia.org...
www.ufocasebook.com...

edit on 4-8-2013 by cuckooold because: (no reason given)

She was a social worker within the welfare ranks of the State of New Hampshire. Definitively, I would hardly call it aspiring, but to each his own. For the record, my source shows that she had a BA and worked in the state welfare office in Portsmouth.

Originally posted by g2v12

Originally posted by cuckooold

Originally posted by g2v12
I find it extraordinary that Betty would have a contiguous string of memories such as this, as the result of suggestive fantasy. She was known as a simple-minded, uneducated home maker with no aspirations. And yet, her recall of events is amazingly sophisticated.

I'm not certain where you are getting your information about Betty Hill, but by all indications she was a woman with a professional career (in possession of a Master's degree) in a mixed race marriage - hardly a common experience for a simple homemaker in the late 50s/early 60s.

en.wikipedia.org...
www.ufocasebook.com...

edit on 4-8-2013 by cuckooold because: (no reason given)

She was a social worker within the welfare ranks of the State of New Hampshire. Definitively, I would hardly call it aspiring, but to each his own. For the record, my source shows that she had a BA and worked in the state welfare office in Portsmouth during the beginning of her marriage to Barney.

edit on 4-8-2013 by g2v12 because: (no reason given)

Within the context of the early 1960s I don't know if her position could be called aspiring or not. My own inclination is that she would perhaps be seen as an upwardly mobile female for that time.

As for being an 'uneducated home maker', the owner of a Master's degree (or even just a BA) could barely be called 'uneducated', to my understanding.

Originally posted by ZetaRediculian
reply to post by UncleVinnys

 

True, but from his Passport book it was pretty obvious the experiencers felt some kind of integration there - i.e., between the material and the psyche. For the most part there was an affinity towards the abductors and in several cases the subject felt he was "one of them."
One of them underwent some kind of procedure where he felt one with the universe, bringing up the Eastern religious concept of Unity.

sounds like every other hallucinogenic experience

That's a pretty bold statement to make given the unbelievably wide experiences people have. Then there's are we talking "distortion" or are we talking, full on another world? I've had both and believe me they are completely different experiences and not really related to each other at all save for lazy analysis. Visual distortions are such things as, I have a friend who, when I was under a certain influence looked the absolute spit of Beavis in the cartoon, only this was 10 years before Beavis and Butthead. The other experiences are a completely different ball park and are totally immersed in another "existence" and completely unaware of one's immediate surroundings. One of the reasons I was fascinated by the Colin Saunders sighting was that he talks of "The air seeming to ripple around the object as it appeared". From my own experience that is also what happens to the surfaces or whatever you are looking at just before you are hit by a full on, no holds barred, hallucination. The suggestion to my mind being that, it might be possible to project a full blown "real event" into our reality. It could be mere coincidence however, I do find that detail truly fascinating.

Had what happened to Colin Saunders happened to me, my first thought would have been.... "This is an hallucination" and I've have checked to see if I could taste a slightly electric tang on my tongue. I'd have been truly shocked when otters said. they could see exactly the same thing. My own experiences were deeply fascinating and one of them, I can explain some of the cultural background to it and therefore the "imagery" I was viewing. Part of it, sorry, there is absolutely nothing in my cultural background to explain why I saw what I saw. The closest thing I can compare it to was that, it was akin to being in a Doctor Strange comic strip only the detail was nothing like any cartoon, it was explicit it was tangible and it was, to my senses, totally real, I was even aware of the ambient temperature against my skin, being completely different to that of the pretty claustrophobic summer conditions I was actually sitting in. I suspect, groups such as the Aviary were looking to re-create those sort of experiences, control and direct them. Personally, I think that was not only trying to grab a tiger by its' tail, rather bite it and then expect it to do nothing.

Originally posted by FireMoon
I suspect, groups such as the Aviary were looking to re-create those sort of experiences, control and direct them. Personally, I think that was not only trying to grab a tiger by its' tail, rather bite it and then expect it to do nothing.

Funny you should mention that, FireMoon. A couple of those birds not only have long & established ties to anomalous phenomena, but those two also have a strong interest in various electromagnetic phenomenon/studies.

Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green, in particular has, in the recent past, conducted studies with subjects placed in fMFRI devices and checking for some sort of quantum entanglement in the subjects brains continents apart. He and Shan Gao took Michael Persinger's tests one-step further as it were.

I also suspect that some of that crew--and their intelligence cohorts--believe they have contacted non-human intelligences through closely related techniques.

No matter what the core causes of these experiences turn out to be, we are definitely standing at the very edge of weird science and consciousness coming together in, I think, mind-blowing ways. I keep expecting, any day, to wake up and find that life has become like some hyper-surreal movie. I doubt it not a bit.

Please forgive me, I did not read all the previous responses.

When I and my family were having these experiences and I went looking for information and research on it, Dr. Mack was the only one I found who seemed to have a good comprehension of what the experience is like for the experiencer, and the longer term effects upon the mind. We ended up getting into contact with his Institute to get help for our son who was two at the time and traumatized, and we didn't know how to deal with it.

There was a huge spiritual type of "awakening" that happened during/after, but I cannot claim to be sure that that was the goal or motivation of these beings, or the interactions. -Which is what Mack sometimes tends to lean towards.

What seems very clear to me is that having an experience which puts into question my most base beliefs about reality is what touched off a sudden spiritual crisis. I did not believe in ETs, was not into UFO stories, and yet was having very clear experiences in full daylight and conscious awareness that simply could not exist.

So this made everything crumble in my mind. Suddenly I realized I know nothing, I can trust nothing, I cannot find any grip on "knowledge" of reality or even my own existence, much less anyone elses.

My point being, a spiritual crisis can be set off in natives coming into contact with other people from totally unknown civilisations, that doesn't mean the newcomers MEANT to have that effect on them.

It could be an unintentional, beneficial, side effect.

I also experienced a "remembering" of having agreed to this much earlier- like before my physical birth in this manifestation. A lot of "memories" about the nature of the universe and consciousness seemed to "awaken" in me.... but now, in retrospect, I find myself putting those into question.

I have studied the effect of integrating, or identifying with, things or beings, and how it empowers one subjectively. How, in any situation, if you choose to percieve that you "chose" this, then that gives one much more power to change it- both psychologically and physically.

My perceptions could have been a coping mechanism. They were certainly effective in that usage, as my perception that I had the power to choose this or choose otherwise was the root of how I put an end to the experiences. It is that which gave me the self confidence and will to decide it will stop.

I am somewhat glad now that I did not get hypnotized or anything, or had any therapist who would have encouraged the terrorized victim characterization (I went to a psychiatrist and a psychoanalyst, neither had any interest, or knowledge of the UFO or abduction phenomena). Because if they had encouraged such a view, it would have been more detrimental to me, I suspect.

In the end, I still don't have any beliefs about the ultimate nature of the experience. There are various possibilities, and at this point I just don't care.

reply to post by FireMoon


Even a hallucination may have an objective source.