D.C. Council votes to Force Walmart to pay "living wage"--50% over minimum wage.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by buster2010
Who said anything about paying cashiers 50K a year?

If you want ALL people to have a 'livable wage' ... then cashiers and janitors and lifeguards at the beach and ______ should all be paid at least $50,000 a year.

And if the job isn't worth a livable wage then the owner of the company should do the job themselves.

:shk: Oh stop. An owner of a company can't do all the jobs ... don't be silly.

So if a person doesn't go to college then they should be treated like a base wage slave huh?

Maybe YOU should take a college course in economics. It would help you understand basic economics. Not all jobs are worthy of a 'living wage'. Not all jobs are set up to be 'living wage' jobs. And people in the jobs that aren't 'living wage' aren't expected to stay in them OR they are second income jobs for families with other incomes. People in 'non living wage jobs' are supposed to be using them as temporary income or stepping stones until they get their trade or education or skills to move on to higher paying jobs.

Again .. the country needs entry level non skilled non-living wage jobs at the bottom of the job-chain. And not all jobs are of equal worth. That's the truth of the matter.

edit on 7/31/2013 by FlyersFan because: (no reason given)

Where did you decide it needs to be $50k?

If average rent is 12k/yr. If you spend about $100/wk on groceries +5k/yr. Utilities can vary greatly, so let's say $400/mo, or another $5k/yr. We are at 22k. That is approximately 30k/yr gross or a bit less and gives some leniancy for things like insurance and transportation. So, a living wage is about $15/hr. You are suggesting $25/hr. BIG difference. $20+ should be for tenure (working somewhere for 10+ years, cheaper than training new people constantly), and for entry skilled labor.

If that person making $15/hr lives more frugally, they can save up and break free from the rental trap. Remember, $15/yr doesn't give them the privilege of owning a vehicle. They'd have to carpool to work.


But yes, in your world, you don't value people or jobs you don't personally like. A janitor is less of a person to you; though I bet you they couldn't pay you enough to clean public toilets, could they? A lifeguard only saves lives of other people for a living, why should they be able to afford a home or food? Cashiers only handle thousands of dollars every day, dealing with grumpy, rude people with a smile, but of course, they shouldn't be able to afford to shop where they work, that would be ludicrous.

If the world was only so perfect that low wage jobs were stepping stones. I guess you've never known anyone who worked in one of these places. I did when I was a teenager. I worked with middle-aged women who were good, decent, hard working people, trying to support themselves and their families. Some were widowed, some were divorced ... some just needed to work because their husband didn't make enough. Whatever the reason; devaluing the job and the person is a character flaw in you, not them.

You can't say these people cannot make a living wage, when a single store, like McDonald's, makes millions a year ... EACH store. Paying a few extra dollars an hour to a skilled worker (not a new hire, a person who performs well at their job), will not hurt their profits that much ... and more importantly, it will increase their overall profits by having people who stay long term, care about their job, feel respected, and take the job seriously. Saying it is a temporary, stepping stone job is part of the lack of respect people have for anything they consider below themselves. If you choose to work a place like that, you deserve equal respect, and if they were respected by the job and the customer more, the job itself wouldn't be nearly as stressful, and you'd have more 'service with a smile' and the quality would remain top notch at all times, EVEN at a McDonald's (who have high standards and procedures to be followed).

In your world, all these college grads who have themselves 10s of thousands in debt would have a job in their studied career; but they don't. They go to college, get in debt, and work at 'stepping stone' jobs, because there isn't as many skilled job positions as there are skilled workforce, especially in today's economy with outrageous unemployment and most of the factories closed down in the U.S. to be opened in Mexico/overseas.

Oversimplifying the issue doesn't make it go away. Belittling those who work jobs you find menial doesn't make them less human or deserving.


An owner of a company can work at every position during the year, and pay themselves (and try to live on) those wages they give the workers for a month at a time, then decide if the pay is worthy. If you aren't willing, they why should anyone else be? Willing workers > necessity ones.

These people are idiots that made that ruling.. Anyone that really thinks forcing businesses to raise their minimum wage for its workers is good, better think again.. We have minimum wage for a reason.. To think unskilled workers at Walmart deserve to make a livable wage, to raise a wife and 3 kids, you have lost your mind.. If anything this a a socialistic decision socialists think this way, and if history tells us anything, I feel like I am beating a dead horse when I say this, socialism does not WORK...

Just stupid.. Its walmart.. What next illegal aliens working at McDonald get 50 thousand dollar a year jobs for flipping burgers

It does not work... Idiots have no idea how capitalism works..

but what the hell the economy is screwed up already, so what the hell..

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
Whatever the reason; devaluing the job and the person is a character flaw in you, not them.

BAM!
Power stuff right there brother!

And while we are talking about McDonalds ...

Arnobio Morelix, a student at the University of Kansas School of Business, found himself asking the same question, so he did some financial modeling based on McDonald’s annual reports and data sets submitted to investors.

Morelix’s take: If McDonald’s workers were paid the $15 they’re demanding, the cost of a Big Mac would go up 68 cents, from its current price of $3.99 to $4.67.

Source

Hey, I would be willing to pay 68 cents more for a Big Mac to avoid using tax money to get these people off of government assistance and give them some self dignity and self respect. Hell, lets make it a dollar and maybe they can afford to give them some insurance too

Originally posted by Tazkven
So you are saying that the way you just described is actually the best way to go about things, right?

If you have a better, more common sense solution. Go ahead and state it. BTW .... communism .. where everyone gets equal 'pay' for different skill levels and different amounts of work .. never works.

No one on government assistance, no one starving, a roof over every head and a car in every driveway ... The American Dream.

Straw man absurdium. Epic fail on your part.

That college course you went through that you are recommending to me, let me know the location so I can advise everyone I know not to go there ...

California. And I suggest that you attend college and take an economics course or two. It'll do you some good. What I stated is basic economics 101. Everyone can't have the same level of pay. Entry level positions are necessary .. for society and for the people involved.

Originally posted by FreeThinkerIdealist
Where did you decide it needs to be $50k?

Average. Some parts of the country need more, some less.

If average rent is ....

Minus taxes. And your 'averages' are rather strange. Rent is FAR more than that in the cities. Groceries are FAR more than that everywhere. Again ... an average ''living wage' would be around 50,000 a year.

But yes, in your world, you don't value people or jobs you don't personally like.

Grow up.

If the world was only so perfect that low wage jobs were stepping stones. I guess you've never known anyone who worked in one of these places.

Again ... grow up..... I myself started in 'starting jobs' ... lifeguarding, clerking in a snack bar, etc ... and earned a degree and then earned more money. So don't pull that 'your'e an elitist' crap on me. BASIC ECONOMICS ... there has to be starting positions, lower paid positions, for people who don't have the skills or education. Then there are stepping stone positions as people learn more and/or get an education or trade. Then there are higher paid positions for people who have learned skills or a trade or have knowledge from college (like math, science, engineering, medicine, lawyering, etc). A person flipping burgers at McDonalds doesn't have the same skill set as a cardiac surgeon. They shouldn't be paid the same.

And what part of inflation making a 'living wage' for unskilled laborers obsolete don't you get? Oh that's right .. you poo-poo college educations so you don't understand how inflation works. See how much you really need to take those college level economics courses? Again ... If you raise the wages of unskilled labor to $50,000 a year, then the doctors and lawyers and engineers (etc) will all have to make more money to compensate for their skill and knowledge level. So their salaries will go up. So the cost of living will go up. So the new 'living wage' of the unskilled laborers will then no longer be a 'living wage' ... and you'll want to raise it even higher. And the cycle starts again.

In your world, ...

Oh just stop. :shk:

Belittling those who work jobs you find menial doesn't make them less human or deserving.

More straw man absurdium. :shk: Knock it off. No one is 'belittling people' or saying they are 'less human'. Go to college and take a few economics courses. Then you won't be posting silly straw man statements but instead will actually understand what you are talking about.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Never said everyone has to make the same level of pay, no idea where you got that from.

What I said was, businesses that pay people poverty level wages and no medical insurance are creating a burden on everyone else because these people require government assistance to survive. That means we all are paying for it.

Remove the government assistance and you will really see a homeless problem, that's not even mentioning the people who are going to start stealing/killing to get what they need to live.

Honestly, I don't care about your economics class, really ... I don't. You want to talk about an epic fail, take a look around my friend. We are living in the worst times since the great depression, a third of the population is on assistance. Face it bro, people are suffering ... Maybe not you, maybe not me but many out there are and it is getting worse. Your class, the basic 101 is not working.

Fine, I get it. You think people should be poor, Your wish is granted and their are a lot of them and the numbers are growing and look at what it is doing to our country, brother.

Originally posted by Tazkven
Never said everyone has to make the same level of pay, no idea where you got that from.

That's exactly what you said, and yet you don't realize it because you aren't educated in economics.

BASIC INFLATION. If you raise the level of pay for non skilled and uneducated low level workers to ... let's say .... $50,000 (that would barely be a livable wage in the big cities) .... then those that are skilled and educated who already make that will have to be paid even more to compensate for their skills and education. And then those unskilled and uneducated low level workers will, once again, not be making a 'livable wage' because of inflation. This is basic stuff.

Remove the government assistance and you will really see a homeless problem, that's not even mentioning the people who are going to start stealing/killing to get what they need to live.

Government assistance is supposed to give people a hand up and help them through difficult times. It's not supposed to be a continuing way of life for decades upon decades.

Honestly, I don't care about your economics class, really ... I don't.

You want to stay ignorant of how basic economics works? That's on you. But don't be surprised when people are easily able to rip apart what you say here. If you understood inflation, you'd know that what you are calling for doesn't work.

Fine, I get it. You think people should be poor, Your wish is granted ....

Again .. grow up. Straw man absurdium.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Your not ripping me apart dude, you are clinging to some absurd "ideal" that if a cashier or a floor sweeper made 20 bucks an hour, the Doctors are going to get pissed off and demand more money because of some class you took

Well here they are ...



Now show me proof that this is ruining the economy, that the doctor's are in a uproar or even a shred of proof these Cashiers making 20 bucks an hour is making the price of good's go up.

It's ok, I'll wait

Originally posted by seagull
Many of you don't seem to realize, or are ignoring...

Minimum wage is a starting point at most, maybe even all, jobs. Starting. It goes up from there, if you can be bothered to stick around.

Stick around you say? That requires work ethic, character and the ability to see something through, day after day in doing something the vast majority of people don't want to do and need to be paid to do.

That's yucky stuff there. Earn a higher wage? EARN a higher standard of living? What? You hate poor people or something? They must have all that with a path to a corner office by the end of their first month or 2nd, at the VERY latest or it's off to churn into another job that better appreciates their....umm...ability to stand upright, I guess.

A few facts on a little family upstart known as "Wal-Mart."

#1 The average U.S. family now spends more than $4000 a year at Wal-Mart.

#2 In 2010, Wal-Mart had revenues of 421 billion dollars. That amount was greater than the GDP of 170 different countries including Norway, Venezuela and the United Arab Emirates.

#3 If Wal-Mart was a nation, it would have the 23rd largest GDP in the world.

#4 Wal-Mart now sells more groceries than anyone else in America does. In the United States today, one out of every four grocery dollars is spent at Wal-Mart.

#5 Amazingly, 100 million customers shop at Wal-Mart every single week.

#6 Wal-Mart has opened more than 1,100 "supercenters" since 2005 alone.

#7 Today, Wal-Mart has more than 2 million employees.

#8 If Wal-Mart was an army, it would be the second largest military on the planet behind China.

#9 Wal-Mart is the largest employer in 25 different U.S. states.

#10 According to the Economic Policy Institute, trade between Wal-Mart and China resulted in the loss of 133,000 manufacturing jobs in the United States between 2001 and 2006.

That company isn't hurting. They can afford to pay their workers more. In fact, they could raise all of its 2 million employee's wages to $50,000 a year and still turn an insane profit. Wal-Mart is a cancer on this planet, and is one of the biggest contributors to American unemployment, having single-handedly killed several small communities, and now they're replacing food giants like Monsanto as the new reigning kings of the food industry.

Why Walmart’s Death Grip on Our Food System Is Intensifying Poverty

Study proves it: Walmart super-stores kill off local small businesses

Do I think DC's decision to increase the minimum wage is a good idea? Sure. People need to earn more to match the rise in cost of living prices. That being said; do I think DC's decision will help things? No.
Wal-Mart heads would rather layoff thousands of people, causing many to lose their homes, and break families apart as mothers and fathers scatter across the country in search of work, than to see a small dip in their own obscene salaries.

The way I see it, Wal-Mart can either (a) pay its workers more, which will both be good for the economy, AND good for Americans, or (b) close up a few dozen stores, which will contribute to a rise in unemployment (nothing new there), however, the absence of those stores should allow a chance for new upstarts to open their doors, creating new jobs in the process.

Originally posted by Darkblade71
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I am all for chasing walmart out of everywhere....And my wife works for walmart.

You can begin by chasing your wife out of Walmart!

Oh man, so joking....

I don't know where this 50k a year has come from, the living wage in the UK is £8.31 ph, companies who have signed up to this have seen their workforce become more productive and they take less sick days per year.
A workforce with less worries about financial matters will work more productively.
They understand the economics in paying their workforce the living wage is better for the company and better for the employee.
I took economics A level, and my tutor told us all that the rich will continue to get rich off the back of the poor...he was right, the gap between rich and poor is widening.
Like I have said all people want is fair pay for a fair days work.
Society need us all from dustmen to doctors we are all cogs in the wheel and should be shown respect from those who employ us.

Originally posted by benrl
I Always love when a municipality sticks it to Walmart.

Portland has done so on similar matters, not allowing them to build where they want etc.

Be nice if they implemented a living minimum wage everywhere, but that will never happen.

The thing that sucks about trying to implement a living wage is that costs will rise proportionate to whatever increase. Higher wages across the board inevitably becomes a meaningless symbolic gesture.

BTW, isn't Hillary still on the board of Walmart? How would she let pay hikes sneak through?

Then again, it might be a way to raise prices and Walmart could grumble about how they had provide a living wage LOL. They is sneaky is they.

reply to post by boymonkey74


£8.31 ph in US dollars works out to just under 25k annually, and that's if they manage a 40hr work week. Unfortunately, most aren't allowed a 40hr week and with the minimum wage around $7.25ph, most americans aren't even earning half of that 25k.

I don't recall the source, but I recently read that at 40hr pw, a worker would need to earn roughly $12ph to hit the minimum living wage mark. Anything under is considered poverty, which works out to your original £8.31 ph.

reply to post by Garkiniss


Well, if they raised their wages to $50,000 a year? They would go to becoming the highest paying entry level employer in the world today. That's not how companies remain in business. That's how they run themselves out of business and in far less time than it took to ever get there. The Waltons would just cash their chits and walk, while remaining among the richest people in the world.

They wouldn't even give passing thought to the millions of workers that move trash cans...so who does? Who should? If the ones who will pink slip them don't care, then the idiots making the circumstances to bring that situation about DO need to care. It's not who should care the most, but it's what it is.

US Average Incomes - Per Capita by State and National

The nation itself falls well short of $50,000 as an average wage. How does that work for some flunky gomer walking in to do a no-skill shelf stocking job, at a starting wage almost $8,000 HIGHER than the average pay across the entire country? Is there something besides their own 'greatness' in showing up to work at all which earns it....or would earning income be totally secondary to amount paid these days? Sometimes I wonder how far the 'Gimmie my free ride and gimmie NOW!' foolishness really runs.

reply to post by MuzzleBreak


I'm all for people earning more.
But this isn't the way to do it.

It is unconstitutional.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by seagull
Many of you don't seem to realize, or are ignoring...

Minimum wage is a starting point at most, maybe even all, jobs. Starting. It goes up from there, if you can be bothered to stick around.

Stick around you say? That requires work ethic, character and the ability to see something through, day after day in doing something the vast majority of people don't want to do and need to be paid to do.

That's yucky stuff there. Earn a higher wage? EARN a higher standard of living? What? You hate poor people or something? They must have all that with a path to a corner office by the end of their first month or 2nd, at the VERY latest or it's off to churn into another job that better appreciates their....umm...ability to stand upright, I guess.

I see your sarcasm and raise you some logic ...

Why can't someone who works for a multi-billion dollar company EARN a fair wage? Why does the Government even feel the need to have to step in and actually regulate this issue?

Why is it that Costco, a successful company can start people at 11 bucks an hour and over 5 years allow their employees to EARN 20 dollars an hour? Who is this hurting? Yea, the Costco CEO only makes 650k a year to allow his workers to have a better quality of life and not be dependent on Government assistance.

How can Costco offer better medical insurance than Wal-Mart does?

Maybe the government is tired of picking up walwarts slack of 2+ billion in food stamps and medicade. Are you not tired of it to? It is after all our money right?

You can blame the government or call people lazy, uneducated, undeserving ... It don't matter. The matter here is that we the tax payers are forced to supplement the income of Walmart employees because they apparently qualify for assistance, If you want to keep using your tax dollars to pay for some person who has a job and needs foodstamps to survive and get medical care, more power to you, I suppose. Me personally, I would rather see that money used somewhere else, like maybe educating our youth and see the Walwart CEO have to struggle by making less that 16,000 an hour ...

Call me selfish =p

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Well, if they raised their wages to $50,000 a year? They would go to becoming the highest paying entry level employer in the world today. That's not how companies remain in business. That's how they run themselves out of business and in far less time than it took to ever get there. The Waltons would just cash their chits and walk, while remaining among the richest people in the world.

They wouldn't even give passing thought to the millions of workers that move trash cans...so who does? Who should? If the ones who will pink slip them don't care, then the idiots making the circumstances to bring that situation about DO need to care. It's not who should care the most, but it's what it is.

US Average Incomes - Per Capita by State and National

The nation itself falls well short of $50,000 as an average wage. How does that work for some flunky gomer walking in to do a no-skill shelf stocking job, at a starting wage almost $8,000 HIGHER than the average pay across the entire country? Is there something besides their own 'greatness' in showing up to work at all which earns it....or would earning income be totally secondary to amount paid these days? Sometimes I wonder how far the 'Gimmie my free ride and gimmie NOW!' foolishness really runs.

I didn't say they should. I said they could. The fact that they're talking about laying off people for making a few dollars more is the point I was making. They're postering like they're some victim in all of this that can barely afford to pay their bills as is, and that's bull$!t.

And don't give me the free ride complaint. Fact is, Americans these days work longer and harder than they did 40 years ago to try and pay for a cost of living that is leaving them choking on its dust. Back in the 70s a father could be the sole bread winner, buy a home, purchase a new car, take an annual vacation, and send one or both kids to college on his salary alone. Now both parents are forced to work just to make it to the next month where they'll again have to make the decision "food or bills?"

It really blows my mind I have to sit in here and argue with people about a billion dollar Juggernaut company paying people fairly.



It is absolutely mind blowing ...



These people live a life you and I can only dream of and yet their employees are in poverty and you and I are forced to supplement their income with our tax money. Yet you people sit here and defend them because you think your toilet paper will cost more or something.

If Wal-Mart did the right thing and payed people a livable wage, they can certainly afford to, like Costco does with decent insurance, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. It is The Walton's family fault yet everyone wants to blame the government, poor people, each other and argue til the cows come home about friggen economics.

What the hell is wrong with you people?

reply to post by Tazkven


Why does Costco do so much, so differently? Well, apparently Costco's business model allows for it and Walmarts really doesn't. I mean, look at comments here. Look at the general feeling, right or wrong. Walmart is despised by a good % of people ...and among those who STILL shop there. Why? They are, in most every case, the cheapest. When Americans rarely EVER have enough these days to feel like everything is paid and everything in need has been bought, every month? Dollars matter ...and spending $20 more to buy things at Target means $20 worth of things that were needed, won't be purchased now.

The same could be asked, by the way, for how In & Out Burger does their thing and is wildly successful with it.

In and Out Burger Salaries

They pay 10-12/hour, use no frozen garbage, no microwaves and prep EVERYTHING fresh on the day, as needed. Basically everything that would bankrupt any other fast food chain..and they do fantastic with it. Should every fast food chain be ordered by the Government to supply the same 10-12/hr wages? That site shows BK, McD's and Wendys to average 7-8/hr. Of course not. People who want quality 'quick' food, go to In & Out. People who want fast food go to the other places.

The thing with Walmart is....aside from the competitive practices (cut throat) they use to establish their stores? Their practices are not anything different from thousands of other businesses across the nation. Pay to the low end of what the market will bear, take entry level people and many, their first jobs and work no-skill positions for base wages. It's what kids all aspired to start out with before the sense of entitlement grew to Godzilla like proportions among so many. Now those kids look at people who spend a lifetime building a career to earn the top of it and call them chumps and suckers. Oh what a world we're in.