Bradley Manning found not guilty on "Aiding the enemy".

Originally posted by Wyrdnews
reply to post by opethPA

 

Its not ever right to follow unjust laws. That's what the whole point of the American Constitution is meant to be about. Its what I thought the UK's Bill of Rights was about too, to be fair...

So again this comes back to someone that has never had a clearance, clearly you have not in America, trying to apply moral code to letter of the law.

The laws that govern the handling of classified information are not unjust nor are they hidden nor are they unfair. From the moment you get your Secret clearance and anything above that you know exactly how\when\with whom classified information can be dealt with. Both Snowden and Manning know they have broken the law but they felt their moral choice was more important. That is noble and something that should be appreciated but it doesn't change the fact that they broke well established and legal standards.

When my clearance was active if I would have illegally transported\stored\traded classified information I would have 100% lost my job, I would have 100% faced fines and depending on the time in my career I would have faced possible jail time. No one made me agree to get it , no one held a gun to my head and said "get your clearance or else" .

I am not arguing that the choices they both made do not deserve praise if their accusations are true. I am not arguing that they appear to have taken the hard road even though they knew of the consequences. I am simply stating that people are being hypocritical in how they are willing to ignore something that can't be debated, they broke the law.

Originally posted by elysiumfire
Excellent news! I'm really happy for him. What message does this send to the politicians wanting Snowden burnt at the stake?

If this keeps up, I might start believing that the 'awake' are actually awake and active. Please, let it be so.

edit on 30/7/13 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)

Getting 71 -128 years in prison is a win win for you?
I suppose in your mind Snowden is probably saying "meh, I can do that standing on my head" as the politicians cry?

Convicted criminal is going to prison and never getting out, any way you spin it.

Originally posted by thesaneone
Can anybody tell me what this punk did that was positive for this country?

As someone who has been rooting for his convictions on MOST of these charges (I still think it was right that he not go down on the over-charges), I'll say a word or two on this.

Manning DID do some very good things in what he chose to do by breaking the law. To a point. The gun camera footage was enough to be sick over and it was the pure video of murder with light laughter and jokes by the shooters to go with the film. That was positive to have leaked and MORE of that would have been helpful. It showed America that all was NOT what it seemed over there and the day to day grind was horrible beyond anything we were being led to believe.


Now.. having said that... He earned decades in prison because the lad didn't know when to STOP and he just hadn't heard of the concept 'Personal Responsibility'. If he could even have GUESSED as a WILD hunch, what a SMALL FRACTION of what he released actually held for detail? Might be different... If he hadn't hid in the shadows like a wharf rat from an exterminator? Might have been different. He didn't earn the 'aid to the enemy' charge, IMO...but he earned what he got. He more than earned it.

reply to post by faust833


Only part of the battle or not, I will be breaking out the beers in celebration. Small victories may well be less than we would like, in this case I am certain that a great many people would like to see Manning walk on the totallity of the crimes he has been charged with. But when faced with the odds involved, I am sure Mannings family will be taking every win they can on this.

In closing, I wish Mr Manning the very best of luck in the further defense of his honour, and indeed the defense of the moral fibre of his nation.

Originally posted by thesaneone
He is no hero I repeat he is no hero. I thought when you join the military you are protecting the American people not giving information to the world, I hope they lock him up for life.

If he is not a hero I do not know what one is.

In the face of tyranny, and in the face of committing treason, he did what was right.

Not what was easy, not what he swore an oath to do.

How many people would do the same? How many German Soldiers saw what was wrong and went screaming to the other side about the atrocities their country where committing?

Probably not many.

HE did what was right,

And Id go a few steps further and say he did what our founding fathers would of done.

What was right.


If a law is unjust a man is not only right to disobey it he is obligated to do so- Thomas Jefferson.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Now.. having said that... He earned decades in prison because the lad didn't know when to STOP and he just hadn't heard of the concept 'Personal Responsibility'. If he could even have GUESSED as a WILD hunch, what a SMALL FRACTION of what he released actually held for detail? Might be different... If he hadn't hid in the shadows like a wharf rat from an exterminator? Might have been different. He didn't earn the 'aid to the enemy' charge, IMO...but he earned what he got. He more than earned it.

edit on 30-7-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

Id say Manning, Like Snowden, have done more for this country than anything Occupy, Anon, Wiki-leaks, and every single member of this forum has ever done for this country.

Yes he is a traitor, yes he broke his oath, but can you honestly say what he did was wrong?

He earned his place among patriots who care about what this country stands for,

I weep for what my country has become, and people like Snowden and Manning weep for it as well, so much so they sacrificed everything in the hope to bring these things to light.

He didn't know when to stop? he knew he couldn't stop, what he revealed was the US blatant disregard for our allies, for Civilians, He did what was right, and shone a light on this Countries atrocities, war crimes, and disregard for the rule of law, our own and international.

This is like a modern dat witch hunt against whistleblowers.

The U.S. govt, and governments all over the world are just going to have to evolve and become more transparent.

They are going to have to accept the fact that these kinds of things are going to continue to happen regardless of the punishment, as technology advances so will the information.

Nothing can stop information.

I agree with everyone here, stating that because Bradley Manning was not found guilty on the "Aiding the Enemy" charge doesn't mean he won't face many years behind bars.

People who get "Life is Prison" with the possibility of parole, usually must serve 25 years before eligibility is considered, unless there is no parole which is a consecutive life sentence.

He will probably get 20-25 years with the possibility of parole, and he'll be out in 10.

I don't really see Bradley Manning facing more than 25 years, but who knows...maybe he will get 150 years.

Bradley Manning did nothing more than help to open the eyes of more people in this world; by exposing inhumane criminal acts committed on behalf of rogue government/s that continue to expand their brutal illegal war/s on "terror."

He is a hero, who has sacrificed himself for world peace.

F.T.G.

reply to post by faust833


can the judge advocate ?? ,, order time served?,,and dishonarable discharge?,,, or would that be too hard on his unit.

better than Decimation
Decimation (Latin: decimatio; decem = "ten") was a form of military discipline used by senior commanders

Originally posted by seasoul
Bradley Manning did nothing more than help to open the eyes of more people in this world; by exposing inhumane criminal acts committed by rogue government/s as they continue to expand their brutal illegal war/s on "terror."

He is a hero, who has scarified himself for world peace.

F.T.G.

edit on 30-7-2013 by seasoul because: (no reason given)

Obama should be handing him the Nobel he got, instead he will be behind bars for a long time.

Originally posted by benrl
And Id go a few steps further and say he did what our founding fathers would of done.

edit on 30-7-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)

George Washington would have had him hung by the neck.
Historical evidence shows the falsehood of your statement.

Source

reply to post by TinfoilTP


George Washington, had no truck with Secret Governments,,ie,, English spies,,or any Europeon Spies,,in his Republic of the people,,by the people,,for the people.
or sadly within his own ranks,,,
if thier were any.
but i believe he fought for the same thing as,,Zimmerman,,,Truth over mob rule,,Justice,,Manning not gullty,,
and the American way.


So help him God.

reply to post by benrl

Yes he is a traitor, yes he broke his oath, but can you honestly say what he did was wrong?

(sigh) Therein lay the question that is most difficult to answer. He didn't mean to do it, I'm sure, but he's ended up the very embodiment of all he intended to resist and set right. He's literally come to define the very heart of the good/evil that is the system he was a member of.

He's done great good and he's done great harm. You note that yourself and thanks for the intellectual honesty there. This is a topic so many don't try for it with. Now...which is the more critical to look at? The good or the bad? Which bad was less wrong?


In the system he did this too, we have the U.S. Government inked across bags of food from rural Mexico to deepest Africa to outer Mongolia. When disasters happen, the best sight a coastal nation can have is the United States Navy on the horizon, because whatever has happened? A fully equipped, 21st century city has just arrived to render all aid that brings with it. It's something ...not quite unique...but near enough to note, anywhere in the world for blanket response to nations in dire trouble.

Then..... We have the dark dark side of that SAME machine, as Manning showed it. It kills, robs and pillages across the world and currently, actively, in 7 nations I know of to say without looking anything more up. It's the Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde and the trick is killing one without the whole patient dying on the table.

........and to THAT end? I can never nor WILL I ever forgive Manning for dumping the State Department's database. People may have wondered why I'm SO touchy on Manning? Why THAT case? Well, THAT is why. Iraq and Afghan war logs were bad, but at least they had CONTEXT for his actions. State is the agency of wimpy people to make peace and do gooder deeds. Every nation needs one, and the US? MORE than most. That gutted and hobbled it in many meaningful ways for a generation or more.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by benrl

 

Yes he is a traitor, yes he broke his oath, but can you honestly say what he did was wrong?

(sigh) Therein lay the question that is most difficult to answer. He didn't mean to do it, I'm sure, but he's ended up the very embodiment of all he intended to resist and set right. He's literally come to define the very heart of the good/evil that is the system he was a member of.

He's done great good and he's done great harm. You note that yourself and thanks for the intellectual honesty there. This is a topic so many don't try for it with. Now...which is the more critical to look at? The good or the bad? Which bad was less wrong?


In the system he did this too, we have the U.S. Government inked across bags of food from rural Mexico to deepest Africa to outer Mongolia. When disasters happen, the best sight a coastal nation can have is the United States Navy on the horizon, because whatever has happened? A fully equipped, 21st century city has just arrived to render all aid that brings with it. It's something ...not quite unique...but near enough to note, anywhere in the world for blanket response to nations in dire trouble.

Then..... We have the dark dark side of that SAME machine, as Manning showed it. It kills, robs and pillages across the world and currently, actively, in 7 nations I know of to say without looking anything more up. It's the Jeckyl to Mr. Hyde and the trick is killing one without the whole patient dying on the table.

........and to THAT end? I can never nor WILL I ever forgive Manning for dumping the State Department's database. People may have wondered why I'm SO touchy on Manning? Why THAT case? Well, THAT is why. Iraq and Afghan war logs were bad, but at least they had CONTEXT for his actions. State is the agency of wimpy people to make peace and do gooder deeds. Every nation needs one, and the US? MORE than most. That gutted and hobbled it in many meaningful ways for a generation or more.

I answer the above easily my self, at which point is the system worth protecting?

At what point does the bad out weight the good and warrants action?

What the US has been allowed to become? Does that deserve the honor and respect of the sons and daughters we send into battle?

IS the system still worth it?

Indefinite detention, extraordinary rendition, enhanced interrogation, killing US citizens with out trial, at which point do you move from patriot to traitor to what our nation stands for?

At what point do you go from a soldier "just following orders" to "war criminal"

I think people like Manning and Snowden sat their and debated, did they love their country so much that they would betray it, or where they going to ignore what it had become and just follow orders?

TinfoilTP:

Elysiumfire: Excellent news! I'm really happy for him. What message does this send to the politicians wanting Snowden burnt at the stake? If this keeps up, I might start believing that the 'awake' are actually awake and active. Please, let it be so.

Getting 71 -128 years in prison is a win win for you? I suppose in your mind Snowden is probably saying "meh, I can do that standing on my head" as the politicians cry? Convicted criminal is going to prison and never getting out, any way you spin it.

On your face is an appendage which sticks out, it's called a nose, and believe it or not, beyond its tip, there is a whole world to explore. As usual, I have to fill in the blanks for those those whose eyesight can barely see beyond their nose tip.

Manning has been found guilty, because he did indeed break the law. The one count on which he wasn't found guilty was aiding and abetting the enemy (whatever enemy you want it to be that frightens you). This has a consequence for journalism and journalists and the reportage of events, especially those that come under the umbrella term of national security.

Do you believe that journalism should act as a moral and lawful spotlight on those that would commit crime shielded by quirk and perk of their employment? Whistle-blowers place information they feel is important to the public's consciousness. They do this because they believe it is morally right to do so, because the public has every right to expect non-duplicitous, non-criminal behaviour from politicians, corporations, and intelligence services, etc. Once the information is out in the public sphere, it is up to journalists to run with it and inform the public of its significance. This count of 'not guilty' for Manning, was also a count of 'not guilty' for journalism.

Hope that clarifies the issue for you.

reply to post by benrl


I could hardly be as enthusiastic a member of this site as I am and not see agreement in much of what you say, America, along with a number of other nations, has taken good and solid concepts like security into the realm of paranoid psychopaths to whom 'The ends justify the means' has become a near religion that justifies anything.

The problem remains though, and on Manning specifically, where is the line ...if any? Would finding and releasing the data from the contractor's construction database on U.S. Facilities in Iraq have also been justifiable? How about a direct index of cooperative people across Iraqi neighborhoods, at the citizen on the street level? Would it have been wrong, had something that clear been included? It was, you know. Those action reports detailed in cases, who where and why contact was made of both helpful and negative nature. So he tried to help our nation by condemning people in that one to die hard, by pure indifference.

On State? Well, that's the crux of it. The State Department is NOT who is out doing the renditions and extraordinary interrogations. If they've blurred into that area now, that is a whole different can of worms and topic to sort out ..and sorting out is important for that. Otherwise, they represent the part of the system we want to KEEP. Destruction of the ENTIRE system is literally trusting people you don't trust now to build something entirely from scratch that will be more honest or more beneficial than this. Reform at least seeks to build around what DOES work...and we'd be in hell itself for a place to live if none of it worked, IMO.

Reform..not destruction. Snowden, in what I've HEARD and read directly attributed to him ..and not the rumor mill of everything under the sun being from him these days? Still sounds to have been, if not still, reform motivated. (That is a story not yet over) Manning sounded and still does...destruction motivated. The two? I see night and day different, even if the base motivation may be very similar.

Originally posted by TinfoilTP

Originally posted by benrl
And Id go a few steps further and say he did what our founding fathers would of done.

edit on 30-7-2013 by benrl because: (no reason given)

George Washington would have had him hung by the neck.
Historical evidence shows the falsehood of your statement.

Source

George Washington would have hung Manning in 1789 if he was in direct correspondence with an enemy. But this isn't 1789 and he was not corresponding with an enemy.

So no, George wouldn't hang Manning. If the founding fathers were still running the country, the government would probably be different.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by benrl

 

I could hardly be as enthusiastic a member of this site as I am and not see agreement in much of what you say, America, along with a number of other nations, has taken good and solid concepts like security into the realm of paranoid psychopaths to whom 'The ends justify the means' has become a near religion that justifies anything.

The problem remains though, and on Manning specifically, where is the line ...if any? Would finding and releasing the data from the contractor's construction database on U.S. Facilities in Iraq have also been justifiable? How about a direct index of cooperative people across Iraqi neighborhoods, at the citizen on the street level? Would it have been wrong, had something that clear been included? It was, you know. Those action reports detailed in cases, who where and why contact was made of both helpful and negative nature. So he tried to help our nation by condemning people in that one to die hard, by pure indifference.

On State? Well, that's the crux of it. The State Department is NOT who is out doing the renditions and extraordinary interrogations. If they've blurred into that area now, that is a whole different can of worms and topic to sort out ..and sorting out is important for that. Otherwise, they represent the part of the system we want to KEEP. Destruction of the ENTIRE system is literally trusting people you don't trust now to build something entirely from scratch that will be more honest or more beneficial than this. Reform at least seeks to build around what DOES work...and we'd be in hell itself for a place to live if none of it worked, IMO.

Reform..not destruction. Snowden, in what I've HEARD and read directly attributed to him ..and not the rumor mill of everything under the sun being from him these days? Still sounds to have been, if not still, reform motivated. (That is a story not yet over) Manning sounded and still does...destruction motivated. The two? I see night and day different, even if the base motivation may be very similar.

Wrabbit, I am the first to Advocate Voter action in the current system, I 100% believe that if americans ignored the media and voted Reps in while ignoring the 2 party divide we could reform the system over one election period.

I believe in this country, I believe the system still can work.

BUT it takes actions like Mannings and Snowden, to slap the sheep out of their blissful slumber, the Government sure as hell wont advocate personal responsibility for your own government.

BUT people like Snowden and Manning might, it might be enough to get people to say "Whoa what the hell are we doing"

And if the US gets hurt in the process, if our power abroad wains because of it, SO be it.

I want to see America Rise from these scandals with a new promise to BE BETTER.

What happened to American Exceptional-ism, What happened to Having the Moral High ground?

If we can regain some of that through the actions of people like Manning than God bless the man.

I hope and pray that today their are at-least a few Americans who Saw what they did, and think "Hey, I can make a difference" and even if that difference is Writing their lawful representative and telling them how disgusted they are with whats happening, than what HE did, and the harm he caused.

Worth every moment of it.

exposing the enamy is still an mayor crime

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by TinfoilTP

 

George Washington, had no truck with Secret Governments,,ie,, English spies,,or any Europeon Spies,,in his Republic of the people,,by the people,,for the people.
or sadly within his own ranks,,,
if thier were any.
but i believe he fought for the same thing as,,Zimmerman,,,Truth over mob rule,,Justice,,Manning not gullty,,
and the American way.

So help him God.

edit on 30-7-2013 by BobAthome because: (no reason given)

Manning was just found guilty of espionage. That was enough in Washington's army to see the hangman.
He will have to spend the rest of his life in jail, maybe Washington would just shrug his shoulders and say "hangin's too good for him anyways" and move on.