Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

reply to post by FraternitasSaturni

My nervous breakdowns dont involve threatening people with knives... as for becoming mentally ill, in that case, I will then face my destiny, whichever it is, if it is taking 9 bullets because I threatened a whole streetcar with a knife, so be it.
What you think I open an exception for myself? I dont. I treat others as I wish they would treat me. Actually they could shoot me BEFORE I pose a threat to anyone if I become mentally ill... if I cant shoot myself.

So am I to believe that you advocate the murder/extermination of mentally ill people who do not conform to what you would deem the "norm"?

There was a guy kicking round Europe about 70 years ago had similar views to you .....you'd have got on well with him

reply to post by defcon5


He was contained in the streetcar, no one else was in the streetcar, there was no way for him to escape. Why not wait for swat to extricate him? If he was lunging for the police when he was shot, his forward momentum would have had him fall out of the streetcar, or at least onto the steps. Point is this absolutely did not have to happen, and the fact that you are doubling down on the justification of this type of behavior is deeply troubling.

reply to post by Realtruth


Thank you for that comment and you're right.

reply to post by Hefficide


This isn't anymore about justice or harms way, this is total total police brutality,there was no legit reason to shoot the poor man nine times. You can't call this justice people, to shoot a individual nine times is execution..... like the saying says bringing a knife to a gun fight i used to think there was something called true justice but there is no such think. God it pains me to see such cruelty in a person.


There is no justice but only corruption, the reason why lady justice wears a blindfold..

I want some of you members to read this information on Toronto Police Department use of force committee final report. Even though the final report was dated back into May 1998, it will give you an idea of their procedures. Please take the time a review this material.

Toronto Police Department use of force committee final report of May 1998

Originally posted by jaws1975
He was contained in the streetcar, no one else was in the streetcar, there was no way for him to escape. Why not wait for swat to extricate him?

Why not just wait until old age, or starvation?
That is not the polices job, their job is to get the situation under control and effect an arrest.
They tried, he resisted.
Under the “Use of Force Matrix” and the “21 foot rule” the police will be found to be justified.

Originally posted by jaws1975
If he was lunging for the police when he was shot, his forward momentum would have had him fall out of the streetcar, or at least onto the steps.

He was told to stop, and he didn't. He doesn't have to be “lunging for the police”. When the police give you a “lawful order” its not an option, like “maybe I'll comply when I calm down and sober up”, its an ORDER and it means NOW...

reply to post by defcon5

Guys who are on enough drugs or with enough adrenaline can withstand massive amounts of damage to their bodies and still present a threat. When someone is acting irrationally, such as rushing the police with a knife, the officers are going to assume that they are on something.

What protocols exist for dealing with potentially mentally ill suspects?.....why would officers assume "drugs" and not "mentally ill"?

I'm not saying this guy was or wasn't mentally ill....I'm just genuinely interested to know if there is a procedure for dealing with a mentally ill person in a similar scenario?

reply to post by defcon5


A decent cop is meant to be able to switch between hats, not just wear the enforcer one 24/7/365.

jeezuz where is the common sense, thought process, or analysis of the situation..duh the book says i can shoot if he is within 21'
there have been alot of these types of deaths latley around here..unfortunatly the police are not social workers and with more mentaly ill people being pushed out of institutions(not that this is the exact case here..but in general) there will be more of these types of incidents..the police jumped the gun here

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by jaws1975
He was contained in the streetcar, no one else was in the streetcar, there was no way for him to escape. Why not wait for swat to extricate him?

Why not just wait until old age, or starvation?
That is not the polices job, their job is to get the situation under control and effect an arrest.
They tried, he resisted.
Under the “Use of Force Matrix” and the “21 foot rule” the police will be found to be justified.

Originally posted by jaws1975
If he was lunging for the police when he was shot, his forward momentum would have had him fall out of the streetcar, or at least onto the steps.

He was told to stop, and he didn't. He doesn't have to be “lunging for the police”. When the police give you a “lawful order” its not an option, like “maybe I'll comply when I calm down and sober up”, its an ORDER and it means NOW...

Can you please show me the law that says you have to obey police like a dog on a chain? Cause I ain't buying that. Basically you are advocating this kids murder because he didn't immediately "obey" these cops. I'm sorry but that is a poor excuse for killing someone. There were several options available to this officer. He instead decided to fire his weapon. Not once, not twice.. NINE times...

In your words.. the lesson here should be, the police are not corrupt killing machines, they are completely justified in killing someone if they don't obey your immediate commands.

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by Carreau

 

Considering this is Toronto, where you barely here any gun fights, especially Cops shooting a civilian..Heck last year was probably the most gun shots and it was 4/per year...

9x shots for a guy who wasn't moving, not aggressive and on a empty street car?

I understand you have to drop whatever you were doing if police ask you, i mean i would, but what prompted the 9x shots?

Gun is a last resort too.

are you serious FOUR SHOTS A YEAR, who are you trying to kid? i guess you just take the media at their word (or should i say NON word, as over 99% of gunshots are NEVER REPORTED by them). i have lived in parkdale for many years, then in north york. in BOTH place GUNSHOTS are almost NIGHTLY SOUNDS. in fact about 3 years ago FOUR SHOTS were fired about 15 feet away under MY bedroom WINDOW, likely using a "coke bottle silencer" (and guess what, it is not all that effective ). there was never any "news reports" about it at all. don't try to sell such a pile of manure to people, it just makes you look rather stupid. or is it you just live in a "happy place" wearing rose coloured glasses? don't believe me? here is the OFFICIAL STATS from Toronto police service (and guess what i highly suspect that a great many are not listed as they were never reported).

Year to Date Shootings Last Year to Previous Updated: 2013.07.29 08:16
----------------------------------------------------------------------- 2010-- 2011-- 2012 --2013--Percent --Absolute -----------------------------------------------------------------------.........--.........--..........--........--Change -- Change
Occurrences--------------------------------------------------------136 ----118-----154--- 109 --(-29.2%) -----(-45)
Victims- --------------------------------------------------------------172 ----144 ----216 ---147---(-31.9%) -----(-69)
Year to Date Shootings Involving Injury or Death Death ----12 ------15 -----22 -----12 --(-45.5%) ------(-10)
Injuries-----------------------------------------------------------------60 ------59 -----90 -----54 --(-40.0%) ------(-36)
Death/Injury Total ---------------------------------------------------72 ------74 ---112 -----66 --(-41%) ---------(-46)
Year to Date Shootings Without Victim or Injury No Injuries 62 -------47 ----73 -----54 --(-26.0%) -----(-19)
Unknown --------------------------------------------------------------38 -------23 ----31 -----27 --(-12.9%) --------(-4)
No Injury Total ------------------------------------------------------100 -------70 --104 -----81 --(-22.1%)--------(-23)

Year to Date Homicides **2010 -----2011 ---2012 ---2013 ---Percent Change -----Absolute Change
Stabbing -------------------------8 ----------3 -------4 ------11 ----------175.0% -------------------7
Shooting -----------------------12 ---------15 -----22 ------12 ---------(-45.5%) ---------------(-10)
Other ---------------------------14 ---------11 ------7 -------11 -----------57.1% ------------------4
Grand Total -------------------34 ---------29 ----33 -------34 -------------3.0% ------------------1
** Data Source: Cognos - Year to Date Daily Shootings With Homicide Report

www.torontopolice.on.ca...

i wonder if POLICE shootings are listed on it? one thing you can see by looking at this is that shootings and murders are ON THE RISE this year, considering we are only halfway through the year and numbers seem to be rather close ALREADY to previous years with shootings, while the total number of homicides is already TIED with the worst year listed (2010). another interesting thing shown is that while "gun homicides" are down the total number of homicides is UP, something for all those who want to "get rid of guns" to think about, and remember Toronto, and Ontario have GUN CONTROL IN PLACE and have for years see how much good it does?

one good thing with this shooting is that not only is the SIU (internal affairs type thing) investigating it, but so is the police chief AND the ombudsman. so we shall see what happens.

personally i would love to know just how it all stared in the first place. and then why no waiting for a negotiator since it would appear that the police had the situation well contained, and NO ONE was in ANY DANGER. so why did the police SHOOT him NINE TIMES over A THREE INCH KNIFE, just seems to be a wee bit of OVERKILL.

Originally posted by Argyll
What protocols exist for dealing with potentially mentally ill suspects?.....why would officers assume "drugs" and not "mentally ill"?

Because armchair quarterbacking after the fact is easy because your not in the immediate situation.
Would you suggest that the police pull out a couch, call in a psychiatrist, and wait for him to be psychoanalyzed?

It doesn't matter if someone is “mentally ill” or not, that is handled after the person is arrested.
Many criminals are in fact mentally ill, and prisons have entire wings that are dedicated mental health facilities.

Originally posted by Argyll
I'm just genuinely interested to know if there is a procedure for dealing with a mentally ill person in a similar scenario?

I don't believe that it matters in the slightest, and if anything it will make the officers more prone to be ready to defend themselves against someone with known mental illness. People with mental illness can be highly aggressive, unpredictable, and have higher level of strength than a normal person.

When DOC officers have to “cell extract” a known to be unarmed mentally ill prisoner, they will get an entire “entry team” in armor, with shock shields (a riot shield that has a tazer built into it), and batons.

reply to post by generik


I was referring to police shooting at civilians and civilian casualties, not gangs killing them off. I lived in Malvern and been to Jane/Finch area, and i know about the gangs there and the regular shootings. even during gang shoot off its almost always another gang member.

When was the last time something similar to this happened? its uncommon, the similar one i can think is the Eaton center shooting. even that was between gang members and 1 civilian.

Here are some quotes from their report.

• there are situations where deadly force is avoidable and officers should consider disengagement or tactical repositioning. In the view of some officers, though, disengagement may be considered a “retreat”, “an objectionable concept to many police officers (Geller, Scott: 310).” However, instruction that emphasizes the use of these options, as part of judgement training, may combat a police culture which values direct action - improving the chances of successful non-violent conclusions to incidents;

• officers need the skills to negotiate during volatile situations;

• there is a need to emphasize officers’ responsibility to isolate and contain the situation until the arrival of personnel specially trained to deal with the matter;

• although the Service maintains a use of force data base there is a need to include additional information from police related shootings;

• officers should be discouraged from shooting at or from moving vehicles because it is always dangerous and rarely effective;

• officers require enhanced training to better understand emotionally disturbed persons, especially in volatile situations so that officers can better control their own fears;

• the advice and instruction available to the Service through a forensic psychiatrist has proven invaluable;

• enhanced uniform supervisory levels are required;

• that there is a need for professional, enthusiastic coach officers who, as role models, will help instill positive attitudes and values to guide new constables;

• the Service must continue to explore the option of less lethal weapons.

The last quote was my favorite part and even though this was over 10 years ago, somebody forgot tell this officer to be taser ready.

The real root of the problem here in Canada is the lack of treatment for the mentally ill, they literally wander the streets of Toronto untreated and many of them living completely homeless. Asinine Canadians who live in a dream world that spout off how fantastic our health care system up here is obviously have never known someone trying to seek long term counseling and treatment with a psychiatrist. If Canadians are actually able to find a psychiatrist in their city that's taking new patients, they on average see their psychiatrist every 2 MONTHS. That is disgusting and pathetic, especially for people that are severely mentally ill! Meanwhile in the major cities like Toronto the rich pay -on the side and under the table- psychiatrists large sums of money per hour to talk about how their poodle is misbehaving and the impact it's having on their friends.

In terms of Canadian Police? I trust no pig that truly believes Canadians don't have the right to keep and/or defend themselves and property with firearms. I never have liked the pigs in Toronto and the surrounding areas, they behave like overgrown high-school bullies, and not in a professional manner the way the OPP conduct themselves for example. The majority of inner city Canadian "police" when asked truly believe Canadian citizens should be unarmed. They are therefore not on my side, especially if the *POOP* ever hits the fan.

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Can you please show me the law that says you have to obey police like a dog on a chain?

Sure:

Originally posted by DerekJR321
Basically you are advocating this kids murder because he didn't immediately "obey" these cops.

Its called a “Lawful Order”...
Its not called a “Lawful Request”, “Lawful Option”, “Lawful Negotiation”, or “Will you please”.

If this had happened in America there would be two fatalities, because after they had made sure the guy on the bus was good and dead they would have beat the living $h!t out of whomever filmed the incident.

Originally posted by Realtruth




So what would your decision be if you had to get the knife away from him? Could you trust that he didn't have more weapons hidden?

edit on 29-7-2013 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)

Sounds a bit like the logic of that, is just shoot the bugger??

It' obvious that the police have now been tasked with the role of judge, jury and executioner.

The LAW is now at the discretion of the LEO. Their word will be accepted and the "Blue Code" will back them up.

The dystopian future predicted by Orwell, Vonnegut and others is now at hand.

It's a "Brave New World" and it's ugly.

Added a few more people to my "no respect for" list, both mods and members.

that's strange ...