Toronto Police Kill 18 Year Old Alone On Streetcar. Caught on Video. I Am Speechless.

Originally posted by RealtruthSo what would your decision be if you had to get the knife away from him? Could you trust that he didn't have more weapons hidden?

Talk him down.
No one else was in harms way.

Next lame excuse please.

reply to post by Carreau


I hear you.

I just think less lethal force could have been used. You could have had all the officers uses Tazers or bean bags weapons.

They choose to use EXCESSIVE force. Now they will have to deal with the consequences. I also know LEO's who have been injured on the job. it comes with the territory. So does the microscope that comes with every action. As it should be. In my opinion, I believe this is EXCESSIVE. Even a former LEO questions it.

From source.

'This officer’s going to have to explain why he used the level of force he did.'—Ross McLean, security expert

"He was fairly contained. He was in the streetcar. He could have let that guy sit there all night."

reply to post by Hefficide


I'm sorry I can't see through the metal part of the bus to know what the suspect was doing or not doing. You can, so please inform us.

reply to post by sonnny1


I don't know how many times I have to say this: They did not have bean bags or tasers. READ the article in the OP.

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by Hefficide

 

I'm sorry I can't see through the metal part of the bus to know what the suspect was doing or not doing. You can, so please inform us.

yes yes we dont know..so lets just kill him

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I don't know how many times I have to say this: They did not have bean bags or tasers. READ the article in the OP.

Does it matter? They weren't in any particular hurry to resolve the situation, were they? Did they have cups of coffee going cold somewhere they had to get back to?

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by sonnny1
"Drop the knife!" and "If you take one step in this direction, you’re finished,"

Right here he's telling you he's using the 21 foot rule...
If the person continues in that direction still holding the weapon, and is under 21 feet, then this will be ruled justified under the way police are trained to deal with it.

Sorry Def.

I just dont buy excessive force needing to be used.

Common sense was not used at all.

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I don't know how many times I have to say this: They did not have bean bags or tasers. READ the article in the OP.

I did............

On the enhanced video, a six-second jolt from a Taser can be heard after the gunshots, McLean said. .

reply to post by IvanAstikov


Yup, probably running to the local Tim Hortons(Donut/Coffee) for their daily free coffee and donut.

If you wanna find them, you just gotta go there, there would be 2-3 cruisers parked in the parking lot, taking up like 7 parking spots, stuffing themselves.

reply to post by defcon5


You can spout this 21 foot crap all you want, you said it yourself in your original post, it is for an officer with a holstered gun. They should have backed the f up if they felt like he was too close. All this is is a way to make excuses for murdering somebody. It's one thing if the guy was actually coming out of the streetcar, but was not the case. Cops have to feel like there lives are in imminent danger when using lethal force.

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I don't know how many times I have to say this: They did not have bean bags or tasers. READ the article in the OP.

But they had all the time in the world.

Three grown men couldn't talk him down? It seems like they didn't even try. Then three grown men couldn't take a 3" knife from a 17 year old boy?

Sorry, there are a lot of really pathetic excuses being used to try to defend the police in this discussion, and none of them are even remotely valid.

I can guarantee that someone could have talked him down, I know that, and you probably know that too. But it seems those cops just wanted to make some bang bang noises instead, get some drama, or their "first kill" like sick and twisted hunters.

There is absolutely no excuse for this at all, and anyone trying to excuse those officers needs to go and sit alone in a room somewhere - possibly a padded room too.

reply to post by sonnny1

McLean says if the officers had waited another minute for the officer with the Taser to arrive

You are just being obtuse, the article clearly states that the officer with the taser arrived AFTER the shooting started. I'm done with this thread.

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by minkmouse

 

I think one or two shots to the legs would have sufficed.

What Law Enforcement Academy did you graduate from that taught legs shots on a person and what was your range score?

Works well here. Even against gun toting criminals. Just this week we had one guy with a gun who "wanted a firefight with police". One shot to the leg and that was all that was needed. In training they actually say "never ever use the american style of emptying a clip" and "someones life is at stake".

Originally posted by Carreau
You are just being obtuse, they article clearly states that the officer with the taser arrived AFTER the shooting started.

Just goes to show you what EXCESSIVE is, hey?

Edit to add.

What Law enforcement agencies doesn't have officers who carry Tazers nowadays?


I rest my case.

This man was told to put down his knife by gun wielding cops. Had he simply complied, this would not have happened. Simple.

In my Canadian province,a man on a bus beheaded a man and violated his corpse add cops stood by and did nothing. Vincent Li mangled the body of a poor innocent kid while police did nothing to stop him.

I would agree, perhaps taser or tear gas might have defused the situation, but i don't have a lot of pity for someone wielding a knife who gets shot for not putting it down when instructed to do so.

Originally posted by Hefficide
That is all fine and good. Now please explain the final six shots to me. It is fairly obvious that the kid was dropped by the first three shots.

Heff, I've had law enforcement friends tell me about shoots they were a part of where less experienced officers put entire clips into the suspect because they didn't realize that the act of being hit by the round was causing the movement that the officer was seeing.

Most officer I know have either never been involved in a shoot, or have witnessed one in an entire career, its not like something that they get a lot of “veteran” experience with.

Originally posted by Hefficide
"Your honor, he had a knife and he twitched....

Guys who are on enough drugs or with enough adrenaline can withstand massive amounts of damage to their bodies and still present a threat. When someone is acting irrationally, such as rushing the police with a knife, the officers are going to assume that they are on something.

not to derail this thread but here is some of vancouvers finest..it shows a theme
here again another video that shows possible misconduct after the police had cleared themselves
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by nightbringr


We are going down a very dark path when we start justifying people being killed because they didn't follow police instructions. How about the fact that nobody's life was in imminent danger, thus nobody needed to die. Kind of common sense, which police officer's seem to be desperately lacking lately.

The cop who opened fire is a coward. Period.

A kid on a bus with a 3" knife? They don't have pepper spray? A taser? Tear gas? Really? Okay.. I know someone earlier said that someone with a taser didn't show up until the 3rd shot. So itchy trigger finger couldn't have waited a few more seconds? His life was so absolutely threatened that he had to open fire? And then pause.. and then fire.. and pause and fire again? Bull...

And frankly I am so sick and tired for people excusing this behavior from cops. Are these idiots not TRAINED in how to deal with these situations? As far as I saw, you had a lone teenager on an empty street car, with a knife. The cops had a visible 2 entry points. The kid was boxed in. At the most excessive, if the kid came charging out.. shoot him in the leg or something. But apparently cops these days (both in America and Canada) receive no real training on the firing range. They can't shoot for sh@#.. they just spray and pray.

Let's assume the first 3 shots didn't hit him.. or only wounded him. They could have stormed in and if necessary, tased him.There was no need for those calculated last 6 shots.

To those who wish to defend these out of control cops. I sure as hell hope no one in your family ever comes across one of them. Peace Officers have turned into Lynch mobs...

Originally posted by jaws1975
You can spout this 21 foot crap all you want, you said it yourself in your original post, it is for an officer with a holstered gun.

It is not for an officer with a holstered gun, its set that way for worst case scenario where an officer has his gun holstered. There are arguments that 21 feet isn't even enough with a holstered gun to draw and get off two rounds. This guy was under 21 feet, was refusing to drop his weapon, had been warned not to come closer, and was continuing to do so.

Sounds a lot like “suicide by cop” to me.

Originally posted by jaws1975
They should have backed the f up if they felt like he was too close. All this is is a way to make excuses for murdering somebody.

The police do not have the same duty to retreat that a civilian does under self defense. The police are there to remove a dangerous person from a scene where he is a danger to the public, and effect an arrest. That means they actually have a duty to get CLOSER, not FURTHER.

Originally posted by jaws1975
Cops have to feel like there lives are in imminent danger when using lethal force.

Uhm... No they don't... That sounds like TV law to me...
That's for civilians to claim self defense.
Cops can use lethal force under the “use of force matrix” at “aggravated physical” resistance.

These use of force guidelines are pretty standard across states, and I would imagine they have something similar in Canada.