The Ancients Knew More Than We Give Credit..

reply to post by Astyanax


Not a single thing you replied with has any sort of relativity to what I told you....I shouldn't even have to bother pointing out the inconsistencies...

Harrassment? I am simply asking for something tangible in the way of supporting evidence that will allow us to believe what you say. That's the Above Top Secret way – 'deny ignorance', remember? Either substantiate your claims, or admit that you were mistaken in your conjecture, and I will go away.

As far as I and other members are concerned, I have substantiated my claims..You are the one who continues to argue and disagree with them..That is your right of course, but it is not my problem to continue to waste energy on..Believe what you want to, I can just choose not to care.. You do not speak on behalf of ATS. I gave you my evidence, believe or don't. But move your 'closed mind' to another thread afterwards...Continuing to intimidate while throwing ad hominems is very much harassment, and is not required to peacefully voice disagreements with presented materials. If you can not understand that, you have more issues than a simple superiority complex..

That is not what ATS is about. If you want credulous, uncritical agreement, you might want to try another web site.

That is not what I said...I stated it was perfectly fine to voice disagreements, but when you take it to the point of stalking threads just to nark on every alternative view you disagree with, that is going beyond the scope and intention of ATS...

Having a 'Mind Firmly Closed' is by no means the point of ATS...

No, it just seems to turn out that way. Now stop being a sore loser and console yourself with the thought that, had it not been for my participation, your thread would most likely have sunk without trace several pages ago. I've been doing you a favour, really, keeping this nonsense alive for you.

If this isn't some blatant showboating of Ego and delusions of grandeur upon yourself, I have no idea what is...You certainly are full of yourself, and your opinions aren't you?

reply to post by tgidkp

it is said that the discoverer of this structure, kekule, had a vision of a snake biting its own tail. this vision led to benzenes discovery. I am pretty sure that this snake figure is also an ancient symbol.

It is Ouroboros and represents the cyclic wheel of death and rebirth, positive times & negative ones. Highly interesting symbol in my opinion, which is why it is a prominent feature of my avatar.

reply to post by tgidkp

Well spotted! No doubt Kekulé, asleep on his train, was astrally transported to Saturn, where he beheld a hexagonal storm at the north pole and was thus led to his famous insight.

Here's an announcement by the European Space Agency that proves it beyond all shadow of doubt. We live in exciting times, my friend.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas

As far as I and other members are concerned, I have substantiated my claims.

Many of the posts in this thread (apart from yours and mine) say otherwise. The objections come not only from sceptics like me but from members like NewAgeMan and John Phoenix who are broadly sympathetic to non-materialistic ideas and explanations. I don't doubt that you have proved matters to your own satisfaction, but I'm afraid that doesn't count.

You have yet to explain how we get from a hexagon on Saturn to a hexagram in the Cabbala. You have not explained how 'the ancients' were able to see a feature on Saturn that cannot be spotted from Earth, even through the best telescopes currently available. You have provided ATS with absolutely nothing of substance, though I must say you have provided us with considerable, if unintended, entertainment.

Taking into account the increasing pathos of your pleas to leave you alone, I shall do so – for now. I am not a heartless man, and besides, your hobby-horse is all but dead and there is no need to keep flogging it. I don't doubt we shall meet again, however. My firmly closed mind is irresistibly drawn to minds like yours, much as cheetahs are drawn to gazelles.

reply to post by VeritasAequitas


Maybe I missed something, but where in your article have you described how the ancients knew about the shape found on Saturn? Aside from one quote pulled from a book on magic.

You have described quite thoroughly how this shape was used by the ancients and cults around the world, and kept repeating how this obviously relates to the shape on Saturn, why?

Also, it's not even a perfect hexagon.

Originally posted by yorkshirelad
Here we go again. Can people please READ about how things work before making 2+2 = 100billion !

The hexagonal shape is a well known, documented, reproducible form in moving fluids. These forms are seen in storms , liquid sugar , basalt (ie lava).

The island of Staffa in Scotland and the Giants Causeway in Ireland consist of columns of hexagonal basalt.

We have many photos of the eye of earth storms with hexagons.

The suprise is that a storm on Saturn shows the same behaviour NOT that whoooo spooky a hexagon.

good post

reply to post by angryhulk

Maybe I missed something, but where in your article have you described how the ancients knew about the shape found on Saturn?

While it may be mere conjecture, I believe the Ancient civilizations, Egypt in particular, were more in tune with the spirit, and much more capable of utilizing tools like Astral projection. A big advantage of the ancients over modern man, is that they didn't have huge pharmaceutical and agricultural companies poisoning food with additives & toxins that interfere with & inhibit proper functioning of the human body...

Do you realize how much better we would all feel, and how much disease rates would drop if we didn't have all this garbage in our food? Why not add real vitamins & nutrients to food compared to maltodextrin, HFCS, aspartame, etc?

I simply find it interesting and more than coincidence that so many represented Saturn with a hexagram (which as I have pointed out also contains the hexagon within the center, an esoterically important point), and there just so happens to be a hexagonal storm on Saturn's north pole...Now had it been a triangular storm, or a circle, any other geometric shapes, it would have been far less interesting, and not likely to have even aroused the creation of this thread.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas

I simply find it interesting and more than coincidence that so many represented Saturn with a hexagram (which as I have pointed out also contains the hexagon within the center, an esoterically important point), and there just so happens to be a hexagonal storm on Saturn's north pole...Now had it been a triangular storm, or a circle, any other geometric shapes, it would have been far less interesting, and not likely to have even aroused the creation of this thread.

edit on 30-7-2013 by VeritasAequitas because: (no reason given)

Polygonal shapes ranging from triangles to hexagons occur worldwide in storm eyes, Its been also pictured on the sun. Whys it special for Saturn? i'd imagine its commonly found everywhere due to its fractal nature.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

It was the association of the planet Saturn, and representation of Saturn via a Hexagram, which contains the hexagon within the center...

As I pointed out earlier, the same hexagram can be seen in the yantras for Jupiter and Mars (I believe it was - maybe it was Venus - I'm not gonna bother to look back through the thread.)

So, there must be similar hexagons at the north poles of these planets as well, right?

Otherwise, the ancients didn't know about the hexagon on Saturn.

Oh, one more thing.

Another poster rightly pointed out to you that the ancient yantra for Saturn contains no hexagram.

Hmmm.

Looks like a fail. Big surprise.

Harte

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by angryhulk

 

Maybe I missed something, but where in your article have you described how the ancients knew about the shape found on Saturn?

While it may be mere conjecture, I believe the Ancient civilizations, Egypt in particular, were more in tune with the spirit, and much more capable of utilizing tools like Astral projection.

Here you might as well claim the Ancients had a space program and missions to Saturn, since there exists no evidence of either astral projection or ancient space programs.

Harte

reply to post by Harte

since there exists no evidence of either astral projection

Proof for this claim?

Oh wait, you can't prove a negative, so you can just bait me into dismantling any sources I post...However, some of your favorite sources, says you are wrong, and a great deal of literature exists on astral projection in ancient times.

Astral Projection

Similar concepts of soul travel appear in various other religious traditions, for example ancient Egyptian teachings present the soul as having the ability to hover outside the physical body in the ka, or subtle body.

At least one example of the belief in AP in ancient times..

The only way I could possibly prove AP to you, would be if you were to experience it yourself. However, a skeptical mind like yours is completely incapable of doing such a thing. You don't even believe such a thing, which is going to be the biggest block in even experiencing AP.

Myself? I have had at least two experiences in my lifetime with it. For you to tell me it is a figment of my imagination what I saw, is one of the utmost disrespectful things I can imagine. I know what I experienced and saw, and I refuse to believe it was just my imagination...

Another poster rightly pointed out to you that the ancient yantra for Saturn contains no hexagram.

It wasn't just the Hindu's that represented Saturn...But by all means don't let an inconvenience like that get in the way of a good strawman argument...

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Harte

 

since there exists no evidence of either astral projection

Proof for this claim?

Oh wait, you can't prove a negative, so you can just bait me into dismantling any sources I post...However, some of your favorite sources, says you are wrong, and a great deal of literature exists on astral projection in ancient times.

One need not "prove" that evidence doesn't exist. Look at it this way, there is no evidence for astral projection, and there's no evidence for any ancient space program. How do you choose which is more likely under those circumstances?

You don't.

The likeliest thing is that your imagined connection between a hexagon on Saturn and a hexagram in human mythological beliefs is, well, imagined.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
Astral Projection

Similar concepts of soul travel appear in various other religious traditions, for example ancient Egyptian teachings present the soul as having the ability to hover outside the physical body in the ka, or subtle body.

At least one example of the belief in AP in ancient times.

In ancient times, the belief held by Egyptian scholars was that the Earth was a disk. If these guys were going to Saturn and back, why'd they believe the Earth was a disk?

You have to admit, there's something wrong there.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitasThe only way I could possibly prove AP to you, would be if you were to experience it yourself. However, a skeptical mind like yours is completely incapable of doing such a thing. You don't even believe such a thing, which is going to be the biggest block in even experiencing AP.

"I can't do it if there's a skeptic in the room" isn't even accepted as a valid excuse among believers anymore.

Pretty cheap, man.

Nobody's asking you to prove anything. If your concerned that "the only way (you) can prove AT to (me)" is this or that, then consider the trouble you'd have "proving" the ancients had a space program!

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas

Another poster rightly pointed out to you that the ancient yantra for Saturn contains no hexagram.

It wasn't just the Hindu's that represented Saturn...But by all means don't let an inconvenience like that get in the way of a good strawman argument...

Hey, it was your reference that I checked. The hexagram in the yantra at the site you linked was supposed to have some significance, according to the words you posted. It was your linked reference i checked to look at yantras of other planets.

How, exactly, is that a "straw man?"

Do you really know what the term means?

Harte

reply to post by Harte

In ancient times, the belief held by Egyptian scholars was that the Earth was a disk.

I thought that was supposed to be a myth?

The Pyramid Texts and Coffin Texts reveal that the ancient Egyptians believed Nun (the Ocean) was a circular body surrounding nbwt (a term meaning "dry lands" or "Islands"), and therefore believed in a similar Ancient Near Eastern circular earth cosmography surrounded by water.

Ancient People That Believed Earth Round

reply to post by Harte

Hey, it was your reference that I checked. The hexagram in the yantra at the site you linked was supposed to have some significance, according to the words you posted. It was your linked reference i checked to look at yantras of other planets. How, exactly, is that a "straw man?" Do you really know what the term means?

Firstly, I never linked the site with the hexagram in the Saturn Yantra, from the Indian site. That was another posted. However, a good deal of mystical talismans that were written down by these people for Saturn contained a hexagram, or did you forget the Talisman I already linked.

Yes, I know what a straw-man argument is..

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

You most certainly did misrepresent my stance, because I didn't initially link the Saturn Yantra found here..

Saturn Yantra - Granite

Granite linked that. I by no means said that was the only civilization, let alone time Saturn has been associated with the hexagram/hexagon.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas
reply to post by Harte

 

Hey, it was your reference that I checked. The hexagram in the yantra at the site you linked was supposed to have some significance, according to the words you posted. It was your linked reference i checked to look at yantras of other planets. How, exactly, is that a "straw man?" Do you really know what the term means?

Firstly, I never linked the site with the hexagram in the Saturn Yantra, from the Indian site. That was another posted. However, a good deal of mystical talismans that were written down by these people for Saturn contained a hexagram, or did you forget the Talisman I already linked.

Yes, I know what a straw-man argument is..

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

You most certainly did misrepresent my stance, because I didn't initially link the Saturn Yantra found here..

Saturn Yantra - Granite

Granite linked that. I by no means said that was the only civilization, let alone time Saturn has been associated with the hexagram/hexagon.

Sorry, wrong poster then.
My bad.

Do you believe the ancients "knew" of this pattern on Saturn? If so, then my argument stands. If not, then thanks.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


I fully agree with the TITLE of your OP. Your conjecture about the connection to Saturn, though, is something that I would still put in the category of unproven. I don't see enough to convince me, but I try to keep an open mind when people present theories. After all, this is still a forum where just about anything(with some exceptions listed in the Posting rules) should be discussed in a thoughtful manner. I hope everyone continues to proceed in a thoughtful and respectful way. I'm too old to take too much unpleasant discourse. We don't always agree, but we should always try to be agreeable.

reply to post by Harte

Do you believe the ancients "knew" of this pattern on Saturn?

Yes. I do believe they had a reason for connecting the geometry.

Just my opinion, but don't get too worked up over it.

Originally posted by VeritasAequitas

Yes. I do believe they had a reason for connecting the geometry.

Just my opinion, but don't get too worked up over it.

I won't. But, now I wonder why you gave me a hard time, considering you hold to the same opinion as the poster I meant to address.

Both of you are ridiculous.

Harte

While it may be mere conjecture, I believe the Ancient civilizations, Egypt in particular, were more in tune with the spirit, and much more capable of utilizing tools like Astral projection. A big advantage of the ancients over modern man, is that they didn't have huge pharmaceutical and agricultural companies poisoning food with additives & toxins that interfere with & inhibit proper functioning of the human body... Do you realize how much better we would all feel, and how much disease rates would drop if we didn't have all this garbage in our food? Why not add real vitamins & nutrients to food compared to maltodextrin, HFCS, aspartame, etc? I simply find it interesting and more than coincidence that so many represented Saturn with a hexagram (which as I have pointed out also contains the hexagon within the center, an esoterically important point), and there just so happens to be a hexagonal storm on Saturn's north pole...

I actually do suspect the ancients ('in general') did know more ('in general') than we give them credit for ('in general').

I'm not sure how this relates to what you're talking about though. Is it interesting? Sure. But I don't see the connection in this case.

A hexagon is not a hexagram.

I think I'd want something a bit more major -- like a whole culture or two using the shape now seen on the planet as its symbol, and using different symbols for other planets -- to think there was a solid connection.

Your use of the shape in magick is problematic because geometry is fundamentally used there everywhere and the geometry used is very heavily that of the "platonic solids" or a 2D and combined version of them anyway, and this symbolism is used for tons of stuff. If it were real specific just to that planet -- and if maybe another replicating the shape at Jupiter's poles, not just Saturn's, while we're at it -- it would seem more connected.

However, the hexagram has it's uses and applications outside the study of merely the Occult aspect of life. It appears often in Freemasonry, Judaism, and Buddhism.

These are not separate. Modern occultism, which includes Freemasonry when it's not a social club, are based on the same ... "dynamics" for lack of a better term... which are also addressed by the mystical elements of Judaism and Buddhism. In other words the repetition of symbols and ideas between these seemingly different groups is really not truly separate sources.

I am interested in cymatics as well, and other uses of geometry and the relationship between the cosmos and the, er, spirit for lack of a better term, but I kinda think you were wandering on that point.

As an aside, and I mean this in the nicest way, I have noticed that in more than one post, you start off on one topic, then instantly end up ranting about the food supply, and then move back to the topic. It's kind of surreal. I generally am at least somewhat with you on both topics, but they don't usually belong together.