An Atheist's Desperate Plea

Originally posted by EPH612
reply to post by veteranhumanbeing

 

God and Lucifer are not "one and the same". God is the creator of the universe, Lucifer is one of His creations. God gave us free choice and helps us choose the right thing to do, Lucifer tries to get us to choose to do the wrong thing and thereby distance us from God.

veteranhumanbeing
Severe persecution coming to America in what form?

BlackManINC
Open your eyes to see it. There is a difference between questioning someone's beliefs, and attacking them. Look at the image of Christianity that the media loves to promote. Does the media cover the countless missions trips every year to third world countries to help with issues like hunger, poor water sanitation, lack of proper education? Does it show how a church will support people in the community who are struggling? Or does it only cover the stories that promote the image of Christians as unscientific, hypocritical, bigoted people?

Open my eyes. Yes I forget to do that most of time Im sleeping or checking my eyelids FOR HOLES. Would you sanctify the Jesuits (missionaries) going into the INTERNATIONAL ZONE, before it was known as that. Lets say, NORTHERN AFRICA, Algeria, Ceylon, New Guinea, New Zealand, Canada, Fort Collins CO. I can question any beliefs because I HOLD NONE. The image of Christianity is WHAT? The real missions are those set forth by the Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Norwiegians. Spanish, Italians : because as democratic (socialists) have the money smarts and manpower to spare, they had a diabolical mission, to turn native savages into Christians and in process steal their lands, culture and GOLD (natural resources).

veteranhumanbeing
You are saying those that die by their own misanthropy DESERVE to die?

[BlackManINC
Its easy to pretend to be nice and smile in someones face, but on the internet, or by any other means where they don't have to face those they scoff at face to face, the atheist is an entirely different beast. The mask comes off and they show their true colors just as much as those you call "hardcore fundamentalists". I at least have a little more respect for the atheists who don't try and hide under sheeps clothing. Just be aware that they will likely turn on you when the time to take the mask off comes, whatever they claim to be.

You do not realise that one can hate God and love and understand it at the same time? If you were the imbodiment of the real snow globe (twinkie pack) you would naturally know this .

EPH612To be fair, I'm not sure that we can lump all atheists or fundamental Christians into one category and say that they are nice people, or that they're hiding their "condescending manner". They're all people, and people will often be as different from each other as is possible to be. Most of the atheists I've met have had the tendency to be rude and condescending, but I've also met some that are some genuinely kind people. Just because they are atheists doesn't make them more evil or mean than you or I can be.

I still don't understand why an atheist would desperately plead for a reason to believe in something that, by definition, he doesn't believe is there to be believed in. Does that make sense?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Sure, okay, show me where to point the microscope and we'll see if there's any conclusive evidence that points to a deity. But I gotta tell you, I don't think we'll find anything that scientists haven't already examined with a fine-toothed comb.

And once upon a time, "scientists" believed that objects in our world were made of differing portions of fire, earth, water, and air. Or that optimum health resided in balancing blood, phlegm, black bile, and yellow bile. Or that the sun orbited the Earth. Or that Pluto was actually a planet, instead of a dwarf planet. Or that SOMEHOW lead could be turned into gold.

It is possible that there are things in the universe that might point to God, that scientists either can't see or simply disregard. Read a little on Intelligent Design. Also, don't forget part of John chapter 20. "You have seen, and so have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed." Seeing conclusive proof of God would negate faith.

Intense faith is not logical, yet that's all you have.

And all you have is the interpretation of science and history that you choose to believe. My point was that faith in God is not nearly as easy an explanation as what you made it out to be. Our faith in science makes it so that believing in God (or magic) is harder than not believing in it.

Either side of the case can be easily argued, to the point that neither side will win. It's an impasse. Also known as "inconclusive".

The EVIDENCE for/against Jesus' life and sacrifice is inconclusive. That's different from saying that the results were inconclusive.

1) He does demand it, actually. Any person who is not aligned with him, is automatically against him. There is no neutral ground.

There's no neutral ground, because there's no neutral choice. You either choose to believe in and follow Him, or you don't. If you choose not to follow God, you could believe in something else (Buddha, karma, whatnot), or nothing at all. But either way, you are still choosing NOT to follow God.

2) Why do you choose to pursue a relationship with this figment?

Because that "figment" died an excruciating death so that my sins could be forgiven. And as long as you keep insisting to yourself that God is a figment, I don't believe you will never fully comprehend the enormity of that sacrifice. God's shown His love for us. Because of His love and sacrifice for me, I choose to pursue a relationship with Him.

That's the equivalent of saying, "I'm happy my dead mother is in my life." She's not with you physically, but you have enough information to compile an emotional likeness that resembles what you feel she actually is or was, and that's enough to consider her with you. It's not her, it's her memory.

And likewise with Jesus. The memory of everything you have been told, everything you have been read, used to construct an emotional figure that you keep close to your heart because that's what it was constructed for. It's a psychological tool. You can add that to your homework if you like. Psychology and security blankets or comfort objects.

Saying that my experience of God was an emotional memory that I constructed myself would be akin to going outside, feeling the warmth of the sunshine on your skin, and having someone tell you that you imagined the sunshine from what other people told you. It's a very distinct experience of something that isn't you. And the anybody who has felt God (or sunshine), knows that the idea that "you just imagined it" is ludicrous.

At what price? From what I understand - and this is unanimously agreed between virtually all of the religious folk I talk to - choosing to be independent is choosing to be condemned. There's scripture to support that, as well.

You could use the same logic to say that everyone who smoked and died of lung cancer chose to smoke so they chose to die of lung cancer. There's science to support that as well. Eventually, they will be judged and face the consequences of their choices, yes. As will we all. Will they be condemned? Our understanding of scripture says the answer is yes. But the final decision is God's. And He's been known to do what we didn't expect, when we didn't expect it, and not how we expected Him to do it. So we may be surprised.

reply to post by EPH612

It is possible that there are things in the universe that might point to God, that scientists either can't see or simply disregard. Read a little on Intelligent Design. Also, don't forget part of John chapter 20. "You have seen, and so have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet have believed." Seeing conclusive proof of God would negate faith.

So in other words, having your deity established as a scientific fact would negate its efficacy? That's the very definition of illogical.

And all you have is the interpretation of science and history that you choose to believe. My point was that faith in God is not nearly as easy an explanation as what you made it out to be. Our faith in science makes it so that believing in God (or magic) is harder than not believing in it.

Certainly, since virtually all of our understand in regards to how this world operates comes directly from science. Why is the sky blue? Ask science. How do rainbows happen? Ask science. What are stars made of? Ask science.

Then comes religion. What happens after death? You get judged according to how well you pleased the invisible man in the sky. Will my aunt survive her triple bypass surgery? Pray and this deity may or may not spare her life. If he did, it's a miracle. If he didn't, she obviously pissed him off at some point or another. Or it was the work of Satan. Either way, it's her fault.

Yeah, I can see why I prefer science.

The EVIDENCE for/against Jesus' life and sacrifice is inconclusive. That's different from saying that the results were inconclusive.

No, the results are inconclusive. Can you prove that the world is being improved without the aid of mankind, and is doing so as a direct result of his sacrifice? Exactly. The results are inconclusive. And now that you mention it, so is the evidence.

There's no neutral ground, because there's no neutral choice. You either choose to believe in and follow Him, or you don't. If you choose not to follow God, you could believe in something else (Buddha, karma, whatnot), or nothing at all. But either way, you are still choosing NOT to follow God.

There is a Hindu proverb that states there are many paths that go up to the top of the mountain. It also states that the only person wasting their time is the guy running around telling everyone they're going up the wrong path and that his path is the only right one.

As such, I believe your deity is not the only means of living a fruitful and positive life. If you truly believe that, you lack imagination and flexibility.

Because that "figment" died an excruciating death so that my sins could be forgiven. And as long as you keep insisting to yourself that God is a figment, I don't believe you will never fully comprehend the enormity of that sacrifice. God's shown His love for us. Because of His love and sacrifice for me, I choose to pursue a relationship with Him.

That's your choice. Oh, I comprehend it, but since he's never visited me personally to take my hand and walk along a river answering my questions about life and the world, it really doesn't impress me at all. A monk who burned himself alive in protest of a war is more impressive, actually.

Saying that my experience of God was an emotional memory that I constructed myself would be akin to going outside, feeling the warmth of the sunshine on your skin, and having someone tell you that you imagined the sunshine from what other people told you. It's a very distinct experience of something that isn't you. And the anybody who has felt God (or sunshine), knows that the idea that "you just imagined it" is ludicrous.

Your testimony is suspect as a subjective account of an event you have invested significant emotion in. You believe it was real, and I accept that. But I do not accept it as anything more than a personal account of something interesting that has not yet been explained and deserves further investigation by unbiased and professional parties.

You could use the same logic to say that everyone who smoked and died of lung cancer chose to smoke so they chose to die of lung cancer.

Yep. They knew the risks when they started smoking.

There's science to support that as well. Eventually, they will be judged and face the consequences of their choices, yes. As will we all. Will they be condemned? Our understanding of scripture says the answer is yes. But the final decision is God's. And He's been known to do what we didn't expect, when we didn't expect it, and not how we expected Him to do it. So we may be surprised.

So is your deity a frequent rule breaker? According to your scripture, as you just admitted, the smoker should be condemned for their habit. And yet you seem to be implying that your deity has his own habit...a habit of disregarding rules.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

Certainly, since virtually all of our understand in regards to how this world operates comes directly from science. Why is the sky blue? Ask science. How do rainbows happen? Ask science. What are stars made of? Ask science.

Then comes religion. What happens after death? You get judged according to how well you pleased the invisible man in the sky. Will my aunt survive her triple bypass surgery? Pray and this deity may or may not spare her life. If he did, it's a miracle. If he didn't, she obviously pissed him off at some point or another. Or it was the work of Satan. Either way, it's her fault. Yeah, I can see why I prefer science.

My point was that our understanding of how this world operates has been flawed countless times throughout history. In my personal life, my understanding of God's love for me has been very consistent. So I think you can see why I prefer God.

No, the results are inconclusive. Can you prove that the world is being improved without the aid of mankind, and is doing so as a direct result of his sacrifice? Exactly. The results are inconclusive. And now that you mention it, so is the evidence.

But has the world been improved because of belief in Jesus? After all, there are countless missions trips to third world countries to help build schools, help deliver food, and help them access clean water supplies. Those missions are motivated by a belief in something greater.

There is a Hindu proverb that states there are many paths that go up to the top of the mountain. It also states that the only person wasting their time is the guy running around telling everyone they're going up the wrong path and that his path is the only right one.

As such, I believe your deity is not the only means of living a fruitful and positive life. If you truly believe that, you lack imagination and flexibility.

I quoted John 14:6 in one of my earlier posts, and God is not a mountain. So whether you believe that Jesus is the only way to God or not is up to your personal belief.

Also, I previously mentioned that some people can be happy without Jesus in this life. I think that having a "fruitful and positive life" would fall under the same consideration.

That's your choice. Oh, I comprehend it, but since he's never visited me personally to take my hand and walk along a river answering my questions about life and the world, it really doesn't impress me at all.

Me neither. I have never had God answer all my questions about life and the world. But He told me what I needed to know. And until He sees the need for me to know more, I'm satisfied with what I was given.

Your testimony is suspect as a subjective account of an event you have invested significant emotion in. You believe it was real, and I accept that. But I do not accept it as anything more than a personal account of something interesting that has not yet been explained and deserves further investigation by unbiased and professional parties.

But the disbelief that most (but not all) scientists have towards God renders most professional parties biased. Most of them don't want to find evidence of God. Plus, good luck finding an objective scientist that would work on an experiment focused around experiencing God. Great career ender there. In short, I'm doubtful that there are any unbiased, professional parties that would be willing to look into it.

Yep. They knew the risks when they started smoking.

Okay, I'm gonna try to paraphrase what you seem to be saying. A smoker knows the risks when they started smoking and deserves to get lung cancer, but a person who knows that ignoring God will lead to condemnation, and continues to do it, doesn't deserve it? I'm confused.

So is your deity a frequent rule breaker? According to your scripture, as you just admitted, the smoker should be condemned for their habit. And yet you seem to be implying that your deity has his own habit...a habit of disregarding rules.

What "rules"? The rules (if we can even call them that) that we as humans try to impose on God to make it nice and neat for our understanding? Yeah. He has a tendency to ignore those. He does things His own way, on His own time-frame. And often, we don't understand the way He does things, how He does them, or why He did them when He did.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing


Open my eyes. Yes I forget to do that most of time Im sleeping or checking my eyelids FOR HOLES. Would you sanctify the Jesuits (missionaries) going into the INTERNATIONAL ZONE, before it was known as that. Lets say, NORTHERN AFRICA, Algeria, Ceylon, New Guinea, New Zealand, Canada, Fort Collins CO. I can question any beliefs because I HOLD NONE. The image of Christianity is WHAT? The real missions are those set forth by the Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Norwiegians. Spanish, Italians : because as democratic (socialists) have the money smarts and manpower to spare, they had a diabolical mission, to turn native savages into Christians and in process steal their lands, culture and GOLD (natural resources).

Claiming that the so-called "Christians" who went into Africa "to turn native savages into Christians and in process steal their lands, culture and GOLD" accurately reflects missions trips today is a shallow, feeble comparison. Just like Muslim jihad doesn't reflect the message of Islam. You are attempting to ignore the basic fact of the good that is done by modern Christian mission trips by solely focusing on the greed of those that came before.

I don't claim that all atheists are hateful people who hate God because of those who fed the Christians to the lions of Rome. Please, stop comparing my faith to the faith of people who did nothing but use it to try and justify their crimes.

reply to post by EPH612

But has the world been improved because of belief in Jesus? After all, there are countless missions trips to third world countries to help build schools, help deliver food, and help them access clean water supplies. Those missions are motivated by a belief in something greater.

So the end justifies the means? A paradise built on sand...

I quoted John 14:6 in one of my earlier posts, and God is not a mountain. So whether you believe that Jesus is the only way to God or not is up to your personal belief.

Also, I previously mentioned that some people can be happy without Jesus in this life. I think that having a "fruitful and positive life" would fall under the same consideration.

I'm glad you recognize that.

Okay, I'm gonna try to paraphrase what you seem to be saying. A smoker knows the risks when they started smoking and deserves to get lung cancer, but a person who knows that ignoring God will lead to condemnation, and continues to do it, doesn't deserve it? I'm confused.

See the quoted selection I just replied to directly above. I thought we covered this.

What "rules"? The rules (if we can even call them that) that we as humans try to impose on God to make it nice and neat for our understanding? Yeah. He has a tendency to ignore those. He does things His own way, on His own time-frame. And often, we don't understand the way He does things, how He does them, or why He did them when He did.

And I call that selfish and inconsiderate. Communication is very important in relationships...and without communication, relationships often fall apart. If he feels I don't need to know anything, then I feel he doesn't deserve anything from me. It's as simple as that. I shouldn't have to settle. This is my life, my soul that I'm talking about here.

Originally posted by EPH612

Originally posted by veteranhumanbeing


Open my eyes. Yes I forget to do that most of time Im sleeping or checking my eyelids FOR HOLES. Would you sanctify the Jesuits (missionaries) going into the INTERNATIONAL ZONE, before it was known as that. Lets say, NORTHERN AFRICA, Algeria, Ceylon, New Guinea, New Zealand, Canada, Fort Collins CO. I can question any beliefs because I HOLD NONE. The image of Christianity is WHAT? The real missions are those set forth by the Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Norwiegians. Spanish, Italians : because as democratic (socialists) have the money smarts and manpower to spare, they had a diabolical mission, to turn native savages into Christians and in process steal their lands, culture and GOLD (natural resources).

EPH612
Claiming that the so-called "Christians" who went into Africa "to turn native savages into Christians and in process steal their lands, culture and GOLD" accurately reflects missions trips today is a shallow, feeble comparison. Just like Muslim jihad doesn't reflect the message of Islam. You are attempting to ignore the basic fact of the good that is done by modern Christian mission trips by solely focusing on the greed of those that came before. I don't claim that all atheists are hateful people who hate God because of those who fed the Christians to the lions of Rome. Please, stop comparing my faith to the faith of people who did nothing but use it to try and justify their crimes.

Not only Africa (THAT WAS the Diamond trade); but mezo-america (GOLD). The process to steal not only their lands, but THEIR LANGUAGE and culture as well. To homogenize them to ABSORB THEM, buy off the leaders or convieniently dispose of them COME ON. Muslim missionaries DO not exist; they may have worked with the Hebrews in the slave trade but did not provide the ships, they snatched the innocent. I attempt nothing but pointing out odd circumtances, the greedy religions. Atheists are a 'non-player' as they believe in a "NO THING Apparent".

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I still don't understand why an atheist would desperately plead for a reason to believe in something that, by definition, he doesn't believe is there to be believed in. Does that make sense?

It wouldnt make the plea in the first place, it should be complacent in its opinions or belief/or non-belief. It does not make any sense at all unless questioning itself, whereupon it would should be an Agnostic.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


That's exactly what I'm getting at.

reply to post by Pistoche


I had a similar problem with meditating but then I watched a guided meditation by Ajahn Brahm for the Western Australian Buddhist Society. I can't find exactly which one it is but it went like this.

Stop trying and start relaxing. Don't wait for anything to happen. Use your inner dialogue to your benefit. Take your time as you start to meditate and tell yourself these things slowly and pay lots of attention to what you are saying. Believe what you are saying.

Say things like;

I am not going to keep thinking during this meditation.
I am not going to keep thinking during this meditation.
I am not going to keep thinking during this meditation.
I am not going to keep thinking during this meditation.
I am not going to keep thinking during this meditation.

I wont say "I am letting go', just do it without words.
I wont say "I am letting go', just do it without words.
I wont say "I am letting go', just do it without words.
I wont say "I am letting go', just do it without words.
I wont say "I am letting go', just do it without words.

If I do have thoughts they will not agitate me.
If I do have thoughts they will not agitate me.
If I do have thoughts they will not agitate me.
If I do have thoughts they will not agitate me.
If I do have thoughts they will not agitate me.

Then say "I am starting my meditation now'.


Hope this helps.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by EPH612

 

So the end justifies the means? A paradise built on sand...

What justification is there? They believe in God's love and forgiveness, and that inspires them to go and help others. I don't see how anything is being justified.

And I call that selfish and inconsiderate. Communication is very important in relationships...and without communication, relationships often fall apart. If he feels I don't need to know anything, then I feel he doesn't deserve anything from me. It's as simple as that. I shouldn't have to settle. This is my life, my soul that I'm talking about here.

There's a difference between not knowing ANYTHING, and not knowing some things. I don't know every detail that God has planned for my life or every struggle that I'll go through. But I know that God can and will help me through the hard times if I swallow my pride enough to ask Him. Why would I need to know specifics?

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Not only Africa (THAT WAS the Diamond trade); but mezo-america (GOLD). The process to steal not only their lands, but THEIR LANGUAGE and culture as well. To homogenize them to ABSORB THEM, buy off the leaders or convieniently dispose of them COME ON. Muslim missionaries DO not exist; they may have worked with the Hebrews in the slave trade but did not provide the ships, they snatched the innocent. I attempt nothing but pointing out odd circumtances, the greedy religions. Atheists are a 'non-player' as they believe in a "NO THING Apparent".

What, and atheists are NEVER greedy? Belief in God does not automatically rid humans of greed (or numerous other human faults). Fighting and overcoming things like that takes an effort on our part. Believing in God, and following Him are two separate things.

reply to post by EPH612

What justification is there? They believe in God's love and forgiveness, and that inspires them to go and help others. I don't see how anything is being justified.

Why do they need to be inspired? All of our greatest feats are attributed to our belief in a supernatural being. I find that pathetic...because we apparently need a reason OTHER than pure and simple humanity. We need a reason OTHER than "it's the right thing to do". If we had no divine inspiration, we would apparently be monsters because we choose to be. And yet we've proven we can be the greatest of heroes, just because we choose to be..

We choose to be inspired. So why can't we inspire ourselves?

There's a difference between not knowing ANYTHING, and not knowing some things. I don't know every detail that God has planned for my life or every struggle that I'll go through. But I know that God can and will help me through the hard times if I swallow my pride enough to ask Him. Why would I need to know specifics?

Because it might just reveal that you are everything you need. People seem to have something against being the pilot of their own ship. They don't want to have a life, they want to serve a life. They don't want to own a life, they want to serve alongside their captain as the captain commands a life. Heaven forbid they be given their own ship to command. Heaven forbid they seize the title of captain and carve their own path. Heaven forbid they become a leader of their own.

What, and atheists are NEVER greedy? Belief in God does not automatically rid humans of greed (or numerous other human faults). Fighting and overcoming things like that takes an effort on our part. Believing in God, and following Him are two separate things.

They are indeed. Even if I find out there truly is a god, precisely as described in the Bible (which I doubt will ever happen) I will never follow him. I don't require a god to have dreams. I don't require a god to live my dreams. I don't require a god to be happy or peaceful. I don't require a god for anything except to compensate for a lack of confidence and esteem. And I would rather solve that problem on my own. I don't need anymore crutches.