Woman Education in Islam

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Also, what about modern day witch burnings, acid exorcisms on children, lynchings....etc.? ]

Dude .. when Christen men abuse women they get arrested and the U.S. Law prosecutes them. But when muslim men abuse women in Muslim countries ... they get a free pass because Sharia Law says they can get away with it. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Originally posted by logical7
muslim men "know their place" too,

Yes .. the statistics show that Muslim men in Sharia-Law countries think their 'place' is to control and abuse women. And that 'allah' gives them permission to do so.

a woman is free to choose.

Women in Sharia Law ... can NOT choose many things ...
- they are forced to marry their rapists.
- they have to deal with their schools being burned down and their teachers and fellow students murdered.
- they are sold off by their families to be 'married' when they are 12-15 years old, to men decades older.

Women according to sharia law have no need to worry about food, clothing and shelter and they are free to focus on more better things, whatever they choose, education, family, motherhood etc.

:shk: The statistics provided show that your statement is delusion. Just more taqiyya.

Women suffering under Sharia Law have to worry about being beaten ... worry about being forced to marry their rapists ... worry about not getting a fair deal in a court of law ... worry about not being able to get places because no man will 'escort' them there ... worry about being accused of adultry if they are raped .. worry about their family members killing them in an 'honor killing' ... worry about being killed or raped or beaten if they decide they don't buy into the fiction of Islam ... worry about not being able to get an education because the schools are burned down and the teachers are murdered ...

We aren't buying what you are trying to sell.
We are better educated than that.

reply to post by Akragon

What if a woman wanted to hold her mans hand in public instead of walking behind him? Is that allowed?

do you even realise that you have a typical sterotype view about muslims?
Allowed? You mean a husband and wife need a permit by law to hold hands?!!
Some places it may happen that women walk behind and the people don't know much about islam, they rather follow what they saw their fathers following(thats actual how majority get a religion), its not a law in islam! Its more a male dominating culture which accepted islam and now all of the cultural things are assumed to represent islam!
It would be same as me asking are all the sterotypes and jokes about canadians being true!

Originally posted by logical7
Women according to sharia law have no need to worry about ....

Women according to sharia law have no need to worry about ... getting justice if her child is savagely raped and murdered by her husband, the father of the child.
Welcome to the reality of Sharia Law ....

Saudi Cleric Raped and Murdered Daughter - Claimed he doubted her virginity

Saudi celebrity cleric who allegedly raped and murdered his five-year-old daughter has claimed he injured her because he doubted she was a virgin.

Lama al-Ghamdi died in October having suffered multiple injuries including a crushed skull, severe burns, broken ribs and fractured left arm as well as extensive bruising.

What is his punishment? Pay a little 'blood money' to the mother and get on with his sick life ...

t was previously reported that Fayhan al-Ghamdi had been released after paying ‘blood money’ to Lama’s mother.

Albawaba News reported the judge as saying: 'Blood money and the time the defendant had served in prison since Lama's death suffices as punishment.'

After international pressure, the Saudi Royal family has pushed to have this fella put back in jail.
BUT ...

Activists say under Islamic laws a father cannot be executed for murdering his children.
Husbands can also not be executed for murdering their wives, the group say.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
muslim men "know their place" too,

Yes .. the statistics show that Muslim men in Sharia-Law countries think their 'place' is to control and abuse women. And that 'allah' gives them permission to do so.

a woman is free to choose.

Women in Sharia Law ... can NOT choose many things ...
- they are forced to marry their rapists.
- they have to deal with their schools being burned down and their teachers and fellow students murdered.
- they are sold off by their families to be 'married' when they are 12-15 years old, to men decades older.

Women according to sharia law have no need to worry about food, clothing and shelter and they are free to focus on more better things, whatever they choose, education, family, motherhood etc.

:shk: The statistics provided show that your statement is delusion. Just more taqiyya.

Women suffering under Sharia Law have to worry about being beaten ... worry about being forced to marry their rapists ... worry about not getting a fair deal in a court of law ... worry about not being able to get places because no man will 'escort' them there ... worry about being accused of adultry if they are raped .. worry about their family members killing them in an 'honor killing' ... worry about being killed or raped or beaten if they decide they don't buy into the fiction of Islam ... worry about not being able to get an education because the schools are burned down and the teachers are murdered ...

We aren't buying what you are trying to sell.
We are better educated than that.

you and your BUBBLE!
If you call this as being educated then i pity it.
Deluded would be a better term.
What you say may have some truths and facts about how some muslims treat women.
What interpretations you make from it are just your prejudices and double standards.
Well everyone is free to delude themselves including you.
You just parrot out the same things again and again and are not ready to discuss anything. Not a sign of an educated mind!
Continue to sprinkle the thread with you rigid but wrong views..

Originally posted by logical7
What interpretations you make from it are just your prejudices and double standards.

Facts are facts. Not interpretations. The FACT is that Sharia is bad for women.

Continue to sprinkle the thread with you rigid but wrong views..

What I posted aren't 'wrong views' .... they are FACTS.
You can not dispute the FACTS ... so you attempt deflection.
Coming from someone who said that he'd support the government chopping off his childs
hand and crippling him for life if he was caught stealing as a child .... deflection is all you have.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Activists say under Islamic laws a father cannot be executed for murdering his children. Husbands can also not be executed for murdering their wives, the group say.

REALLY?? Thats news to me!
Did you verify what the "Activists" say?
Can you tell me what are those Islamic laws?
In Quran or Hadiths or any writings of any of the four scholars of jurisprudence?

So ... education of women in Islam ... Lets go to IRAN ...

UNICEF - Education of Girls in Iran

All family members are expected to do what they can to bring home income, and this means children are often taken out of school. Girls must do the household chores and look after younger siblings while boys run errands and do odd jobs to earn money.

As a result of isolation and poverty, many communities view education as a luxury and cultural attitudes towards women mean that more girls than boys are denied an education

Girls here are not just disadvantaged by a lack of education. Old traditions mean that many of them face the prospect of early marriage (marriage for 12-year-old girls is common and they are powerless to refuse). Once married, their chances of an education decrease even more as their husbands are usually unwilling to let them leave the house unescorted and want them to concentrate on running their new households.

UNICEF World Report

There are a lot of religious leaders who do not think that to send a girl to school is a big priority. This is actually the most difficult barrier to overcome, and we've been doing so in working with the communities involved in many countries in South Asia, in the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa, and we've just proven that to send a girl [to school] is not going against the religious beliefs, but [on the contrary], we'll have a much better outcome in the well-being of the family, of the community, and therefore the whole society," Personnaz said.

BBC UK - Iranian University Bans on Woman Causes Consternation

With the start of the new Iranian academic year, a raft of restrictions on courses open to female students has been introduced, raising questions about the rights of women to education in Iran - and the long-term impact such exclusions might have.

More than 30 universities have introduced new rules banning female students from almost 80 different degree courses.

These include a bewildering variety of subjects from engineering, nuclear physics and computer science, to English literature, archaeology and business.

Iran Primer - Iran Curtails Female Education

Universities are acting individually to adopt quota systems favoring men. The goal is to limit the number of women in certain disciplines or to bar them altogether from certain fields of study. Some universities are enforcing single sex classes and are requiring professors to teach the same course twice.

So why is Iran doing this? Aha .. the men are jealous and concerned because the women are becoming better educated then they are. The men can't dominate women who have an education and who can take care of themselves .... so the men make sure the women don't have degrees that can have high paying jobs and the women can't take care of themselves or families ... oh and lookie ... the Iranian leadership wants women to stay home and make lots of babies .... :shk:

In recent years, women have been winning more places in universities in competitive, nation-wide exams. These new measures seem intended to redress the balance in men’s favor. .... President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s government is chauvinist about women generally. Barring women from certain fields of study comes hand-in-hand with the reversal of Iran’s family planning program—one of the most successful in the world. Iran’s Supreme Leader recently described the family planning program as misguided and called on women to have larger families.

Yep ... smart women won't want to marry stupid men.
So the men take control and dumb down the women.

Chronicle of Education - Why is Iran Curtailing Education of Women?

In Iran, for example, the legal age of marriage for girls is 13, but the mean age of marriage is 23. A woman of 23 is likely to have experienced some level of higher education and be less prepared to agree to marry a man less educated than she is.

:shk: There you have 'women and education in Islam' in Iran.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Coming from someone who said that he'd support the government chopping off his childs hand and crippling him for life if he was caught stealing as a child .... deflection is all you have.

i had stated that because law is equal for everyone.
Thats what i meant as a difference between FACT and its "interpretation"
my statement was a fact. How you interprete it is at the mercy of your prejudices.

A child being molested at airport security in USA can be a fact. Me interpreting "All Americans are child molesters" is my narrow rigid mind's doing.

When people have such a mind then they are beyond help.

I am sorry for you FF.

reply to post by logical7


How about you address these FACTS from PAGE ONE of this thread ...
In your opening post you praised education of women in Islam, and dis'd the West.
You did so using a cartoon from over a thousand years ago.
How about you address the FACTS from today ...

CNN - Girls School Burned Down in Afghanistan Again
Students Murdered and Schools Burned in Afghanistan
Girls Schools Burned Down in Pakistan
Muslim Womens News .. More Schools Burned Down
Nigeria - Muslims burn down more schools and kill more teachers
Indonesia - schools burned down and people killed
Burning down a girls school in Lahore
Muslims threaten girls daily for going to school
Malala shot in the head for wanting to learn to read

reply to post by logical7

No dude ... you said exactly what you said .. that you'd support the government chopping off your kids hand and crippling him for life if he was caught stealing.

What you said is right here

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

SO... IF your child (of legal age) was condemned to get his hand chopped off... you would say...Yup you deserve it...

Yup he/she deserves it. Although i hope he/she would come to me for any need before doing that act.

reply to post by FlyersFan

There are a lot of religious leaders who do not think that to send a girl to school is a big priority. This is actually the most difficult barrier to overcome, and we've been doing so in working with the communities involved in many countries in South Asia, in the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa, and we've just proven that to send a girl [to school] is not going against the religious beliefs, but [on the contrary], we'll have a much better outcome in the well-being of the family, of the community, and therefore the whole society," Personnaz said.

this is what you posted, can you read the line in bold?
And yes for billions of people education is a luxury, unfortunate but a FACT.
Only you can twist it and blame a religion for it.
If you were born in a village in Bangladesh and your father didn't have the money to even feed the family, would he be able to pay for your education?
Islam stresses on education and wherever muslims have the means to get it they do.
Kerala in India has almost 100% literacy rate and about 20% are muslims there. So it simply means that both muslims men and women are educated.
If islam forbade women education then 10% of the population would not be educated and the rate wouldnt be more than 90%

reply to post by FlyersFan


FF,
Your posts early in the thread where you provided the dozens of factual stories are FAR more credible than these Muslim apologists' efforts to show Islam as some sweet and tranquil utopian goal.

Trying to get people to believe that the backward, misogynist, violent Islam AS PRACTICED IN THE EASTERN HEMISPHERE is "not real Islam" has become ridiculous, in my opinion. Muslim women IN THE WEST enjoy FAR more privileges, have FAR more rights and respect than ANY of the women in the Islamic majority countries.... because here, it doesn't really MATTER what your religion is, you get the same dignity and rights as everyone else, and mistreatment is not only frowned upon in this establishment, but ILLEGAL as well.

I have yet to figure out what the OP's overall "agenda" or "objective" is - except to DENY all the horrible things that Islamists have done, and continue to do.

HE evidently doesn't really want a "discussion" - he is quick to get huffy and defensive and resort to slamming the character and education of anyone who is capable of challenging him effectively - he apparently believes he knows the hearts and minds of EVERYONE who wants nothing to do with Islam - and he is eager to vilify "the West" ----- he spends more time vilifying the West than he does explaining WHY Islam is such a disaster for so many.

Honestly, I don't know WHO he's trying to convince. In any case, disagreeing with him and presenting real cases as evidence doesn't seem to sit well with him - he will always stoop to personal attacks, insults, and demeaning WE WOMEN who refuse to buy his propaganda, while insisting that he is smarter and better educated and open-minded.

I have asked him for more self-disclosure, in an effort to better wrap my head around his worldview, but was told, "You don't deserve to know!" Thusly - real communication is IMPOSSIBLE.

What does he want us to do? Say, "Oh, okay. You convinced me." I guess.

Showing a propaganda image and not giving ANY commentary has done NOTHING to improve today's views of Islam, and since he refuses to give us his OWN background, educational status, or ever mention ANYTHING about his female family members' experiences, we are left with nothing but empty claims.

The OP is not an effective proponent of his objective. The thread, however, has been very interesting, thanks to your lively participation. I find it ironic how when he is confronted with unpalatable FACTS, he resorts to misogynist denigration of the WOMEN responding to him, thereby PROVING he does NOT respect our points of view. "Respect" for women, eh??

NO QUESTIONING ALLOWED, for all his rhetoric about "open discussion." He simply shuts down, if he can't refute what his opponents bring up with data, he does so with childish insults instead.

Who wants to listen to someone like that?

Not me.

I'm addressing this post to you, as I doubt he will respond to me, but I wonder what you think is his objective.

Of course, he's free to respond to my post here and address these reasons for not giving him the "respect" he seems to demand.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
reply to post by logical7

 

No dude ... you said exactly what you said .. that you'd support the government chopping off your kids hand and crippling him for life if he was caught stealing.

What you said is right here

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Akragon

 

SO... IF your child (of legal age) was condemned to get his hand chopped off... you would say...Yup you deserve it...

Yup he/she deserves it. Although i hope he/she would come to me for any need before doing that act.

If your son rapes a girl would you say he deserves the punishment?
If your son robs a bank, would you say he deserves the punishment?

If Obama's daughter commits treason, should she be treated the same as they want for Snowden?

I say YES!

If the law states NO stealing or the punishment is losing a hand then its same for all.
But before applying this strict of a law the government should make sure that there is social justice and nobody goes hungry or has to struggle for basic human needs. After that if a person still steals then he/she is doing it for greed even after knowing the punishment. So i am ok if my kid also decides that as an adult. It would sure pain me badly.

reply to post by logical7

If the law states NO stealing or the punishment is losing a hand then its same for all.

If THE LAW states that this is the punishment, it is a BARBARIAN system. For ALL.

Originally posted by logical7
this is what you posted, can you read the line in bold?

The part in BOLD was by UNICEF .. not the Imams or the muslim government. They showed the Sharia people that it is good for girls to go to school. But the Sharia people still marry the girls off young (to men decades older) and don't allow the girls to get an education. The Sharia people still burn down girls schools and murder teachers.

Only you can twist it and blame a religion for it.

Um ... no. The religious leaders and the Sharia government use the Islamic religion as the reason for not allowing girls to get an education. I'm reporting that FACT.

If islam forbade women education then 10% of the population would not be educated and the rate wouldnt be more than 90%

DEAD WRONG on those numbers.
*see the statistics quoted below.

And as far as Islam forbiding it or not ... that is how it is interpreted by a great many Muslims. That .. and the general lack of respect that Muslim men have toward women means that Muslim women don't get the same education opportunities as the men. I proved it earlier with the Iran numbers. And you can't blame 'being poor' on what is happening in the Iranian universities. Sure, some of this is 'being poor', but the fact is that you can't hold Islam up high as an example of how women are getting great educations and the west is poor at it (as you attempted and failed to do in the opening post) .. when that simply isn't the case.

Muslim Statistics - Education and Employment - Broken Down by Country

Of the 1.4 billion Muslims 800 million are illiterate (6 out of 10 Muslims cannot read). In Christendom, adult literacy rate stands at 78 percent. ...

Nearly one in three people in the Arab world is illiterate, including nearly half of all women in the region, the Tunis-based Arab League Educational Cultural and Scientific Organisation (Alecso) said Monday

India - Less than 4 percent of Muslims graduate from school, compared with 6 percent of the total population.

The actual literacy rate in Pakistan is hovering around 30% while this rate is around 15% in the tribal areas and the female literacy rate in tribal areas is around 5%.

A shocking 65% of married Yemeni women aged between 15 and 24 are illiterate

Focusing in on India -

Overall (all religions together) Female Literacy Rates in India
Literacy Rate for Muslim Women in India

Even today, 59% of Muslim women have not attended school and 60% are married by the age of 17. Overall, Muslims have a literacy rate of 59.1%, 5.7 percentage points lower than the national average.

While in Haryana, one-fifth of Muslim women are literate, the figure is about one-third in Bihar and UP. In 15 states, the literacy level among Muslim women is less than 50%. Muslims register the lowest work participation rate of 31,3% and just about 14% of Muslim women are registered as workers.

Even in Tamil Nadu and Kerala, wich have high literacy rates among all communities, including Muslims, the work participation rate of Muslims is 14 percentage points lower than that Hindus

Indian Muslims and Education

But it does not mean that we cannot talk of Muslim backwardness in general because the large mass of Muslims on the whole is quite poor and illiterate. In many respects they are falling behind even the Scheduled Castes. Muslim women are particularly far more behind. For example among the Muslim women on All India level, according to the National Family Health Survey (NFHS), 66% are illiterate and in Haryana Muslim female illiteracy is universal (98%). It is interesting to note that in Haryana most of the Muslims are Meo Muslims and Meo Muslims are quite backward on the whole. Even in Assam with the highest percentage of Muslim population the female illiteracy among Muslims is 74 per cent. In the states of West Bengal, Karnataka, Delhi and Madhya Pradesh, 60 to 65 per cent and in the states of Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh and Gujrat, 50 to 55 per cent of Muslim women are illiterate.

reply to post by logical7

Dude .. you had no problem with your kids hand being cut off under Sharia Law ... being maimed for life because he/she stole something. No amount of squirming about 'equal law for all' changes the fact that Sharia is barbaric and you had no problem with it ... and that you are a huge sharia advocate.

reply to post by FlyersFan


This deserves repeating:

The part in BOLD was by UNICEF .. not the Imams or the muslim government. They showed the Sharia people that it is good for girls to go to school. But the Sharia people still marry the girls off young (to men decades older) and don't allow the girls to get an education. The Sharia people still burn down girls schools and murder teachers.

Yep! Every day.

Originally posted by logical7
I am sorry for you FF.

Save your pity for the women suffering under the jackboot of muslim men.

Address the quotes I gave about how the Muslim government in Iran is making it impossible now for women to go get degrees in the high paying fields. Address the fact that they are being barred because they are making more money and are smarter then the men and that the government is scared that the smart women won't want to marry the dumb men so the government is blocking the women from getting degrees that they can take care of themselves and support themselves with.

Go ahead and try to defend that.

More from the link on Indian Muslims in particular:

Indian Muslims are not and should not be treated as a homogeneous community. They have sectarian, regional, caste and cultural differences which are quite crucial to the understanding of the problem. Most academics, unfortunately, and the Muslim leaders themselves, like to treat Indian Muslims as a homogeneous mass. Even in matters like literacy, family planning and economic development, there are regional and caste differences. If we have to understand the Muslim reality as a whole we will have to keep these differences in mind.

There is, for example, higher rate of literacy among the Kerala Muslims than Muslims in other regions. Even the rate of family planning among the Kerala Muslims is higher than the Muslims, say in U.P. or Maharashtra. Similarly, the Ansari Muslims in Eastern U.P. are better off economically than other Muslims in the region. In general the artisans, Ansaris, Qureshis, Baghbans and others have made more progress economically than upper caste Muslims. In the same manner the Bohras, Khojas and Memons of Gujrat being trading communities, are much better off than Muslims in general. Thus it will be seen that regional and even sectarian and caste differences must be taken into account while trying to understand the situation of Indian Muslims.

I wonder what region the OP lives in, and what form of Muslim "culture" as described above, he subscribes to. But, he won't tell me.