UK National service --Parliamentary Bill. -- National service coming to Britain?

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by AthiestJesus

 

I could think of someone else who needs to get their head out their arse!

C'mon man, you've gone off on a rant about something that is totally irrelevant.

Irrelevant ?

You honestly think this has nothing to do with everything else they have been putting into place ?

They will make it impossible for the working class to live without signing up to get shot for a government committing treason on a daily basis. No free health care , no benefits if you come back with missing limbs ........ think really hard about the future of this country ........ National Service will be BOUGHT into law like everything else . Mark my words.

reply to post by AthiestJesus


Yes, I did actually and I'm not that much older than them anyway. I did try to join the Army at 16, but unfortunately an old Rugby injury flared up and put paid to that, but even now if the word went out for volunteers, I'd be at the front of the queue,s o no I am not advocating the "youth" do anything I wouldn't do myself.

In fact, if it weren't for my exiting commitments with family and the need to earn a certain amount, I'd join up now.

I did look into joining the RAF a few years ago, but the pay was too low to keep my family with a roof over their heads while I would be in basic (you don't get married quarters/living allowance until you pass Basic) even though the pay once qualified (I was going for an Officer position) was rather good.

reply to post by AthiestJesus


No, i won;t "mark your words" because it is patently obvious you don't understand what this is. It is just some random backbencher with a fantasy who was lucky enough to have his number pulled from a hat, giving the right to submit the Bill of his choice.

Now, mark my words, this will be torn up before it gets anywhere near the Lords, much less Royal Ascent.

reply to post by stumason


www.guardian.co.uk...

metro.co.uk...



Dave wants it .......... some of his best friends are sitting in the house of lords ......... this will happen.

It will come in under the guise of a "non military" national service , and will soon end up being the recruitment for the full time TA and TA SAS.

reply to post by AthiestJesus


That isn't even remotely the same thing - nice try, but no cigar.

Again though, I support what he is doing - there is nothing wrong with giving Kids a taste of life outside the hum-drum of the city and giving them life skills that are actually of use..

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by AthiestJesus

 

That isn't even remotely the same thing - nice try, but no cigar.

Again though, I support what he is doing - there is nothing wrong with giving Kids a taste of life outside the hum-drum of the city and giving them life skills that are actually of use..

How about giving them opportunities , educating everyone at the same level , reducing taxes and house prices , and making life worth living again ? No ? Why not ? ...... oh , that`s right , you and your type want to make money of the DIRE situation we have been forced into.

Sending young men and women off to fight wars that violate near enough every law and right written , just so they can`t throw your chums out of power for robbing their futures ?

You all show your tory colours with pride , pretty sickening to tell you the truth , to think adults of our time and age are still so brainwashed and primitive they will come out with this crap is beyond belief .

The only thing separating these toffs from the Nazis is their dress sense.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
How about giving them opportunities , educating everyone at the same level , reducing taxes and house prices , and making life worth living again ? No ? Why not ? ...... oh , that`s right , you and your type want to make money of the DIRE situation we have been forced into.

They have opportunity, but you can;t just expect it to be handed to you, you have to put some effort in you know.

As for education, we are all educated to the same level, what's your point? It's up to the student to make the most of it.

House prices are something beyond Government control, unless you're advocating that they take ownership of every house in the UK? When they do try to build houses, NIMBY's block the plans for years - case in point is my own local council trying to build 5,000 new homes being blocked at every turn by a small group of old fuddy duddies who don't want their view "ruined".

Me and my type? How exactly am I profiting?

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
Sending young men and women off to fight wars that violate near enough every law and right written , just so they can`t throw your chums out of power for robbing their futures ?

What laws were violated? And seeing as we have a volunteer Army and also that most who are in Afghan now joined since the War begian, no one is being sent anywhere without their consent.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
You all show your tory colours with pride , pretty sickening to tell you the truth , to think adults of our time and age are still so brainwashed and primitive they will come out with this crap is beyond belief .

The only thing separating these toffs from the Nazis is their dress sense.

Blah, blah.... Full of complaints, but nothing of substance. Considering Opinion polls bear out massive Public support for a return to National Service, it seems that whilst this Bill will go no where, it does have some traction in the Popular mindset.

If anything, the Government is less right-wing than the Population as there is also massive support for bringing back the Death penalty, something the Government is against.

You really are full of it.

They have opportunity, but you can;t just expect it to be handed to you, you have to put some effort in you know.

See .... expecting it to be handed to them ? no , expecting to have the freedom to learn a profession and build a career , not to be forced into Tesco working for free in fear of being hunted with pitchforks for daring to say no to the Fuhrer .

As for education, we are all educated to the same level, what's your point? It's up to the student to make the most of it.

Private schools are a whole different story though aren't they ...... different opportunities , very unfair system and only a fool would deny it.

House prices are something beyond Government control, unless you're advocating that they take ownership of every house in the UK? When they do try to build houses, NIMBY's block the plans for years - case in point is my own local council trying to build 5,000 new homes being blocked at every turn by a small group of old fuddy duddies who don't want their view "ruined".

If you honestly believe house prices are not controlled and manipulated by the government then you must have been living under a rock for decades , if not , and I`m going with the latter , stop talking utter dribble.
They`ve been pulling houses down all over the country ever since they came into power , refusing to build any replacements , and soon you will see them claiming the economy is booming because the construction industry is finally rebuilding houses.

Me and my type? How exactly am I profiting?

I have a feeling , I`m good with feelings.

What laws were violated? And seeing as we have a volunteer Army and also that most who are in Afghan now joined since the War begian, no one is being sent anywhere without their consent.

Yet . And I do not appreciate your pathetic attempt to play dumb to any violation of laws and rights throughout these disgusting massacres of innocent people , it`s quite insulting.

Blah, blah.... Full of complaints, but nothing of substance. Considering Opinion polls bear out massive Public support for a return to National Service, it seems that whilst this Bill will go no where, it does have some traction in the Popular mind set.

See , just make up some bulltish "poll" and the far right will run away with it. If you had an actual poll , instead of these false polls , you`d find that most of Britain would probably be marching on downing street by now for just suggesting the return of the death penalty. How do I never seem to be involved in any of these polls ? because I`m not sitting in the coffee room with dave ? do you think I came down in the last shower of rain lad ?

If anything, the Government is less right-wing than the Population as there is also massive support for bringing back the Death penalty, something the Government is against.

I honestly fear the future of Britain now you Nazi lunatics are in total control , no opposition , anyone who doesn't agree gets labelled a scumbag , you buy the media and spread blatant propaganda 24/7 hoping that eventually , s*** will stick. Stirring up racism , creating division in all corners of the isles , all the while sitting back and creaming off the top ..... sick ..... and let me just make this clear , if the death penalty ever was brought back , it would be to execute the tories and their supporters for high treason .

You really are full of it.

Yes , to you and your kind ....... but to us , you`re the odd one out . Vile person.

The death penalty with the tories in charge , you would be ordering the deaths of anyone on the dole , everyone in the NHS , anyone who didn't agree with it in the first place , and any immigrants you could get your hands on. It would be brutal , riddled with false accusations , and a lot of innocent people would be murdered simply for being poor.

I know this is against my better judgement, but hey, it's a quiet night at work.....

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
See .... expecting it to be handed to them ? no , expecting to have the freedom to learn a profession and build a career , not to be forced into Tesco working for free in fear of being hunted with pitchforks for daring to say no to the Fuhrer .

And how exactly is anyone being forced to work for Tesco? Oh, you mean the work scheme for the long term unemployed.. Well, you seem to be in a minority when it comes to seeing an attempt at trying to get people into the workplace, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, relying on the jobcentre to find you work and only dishing out a couple of CV's a month and calling that "jobseeking" is going to get you no where.

However, if you really want to make a career and ot just get "a job", then it is much more worthwhile looking yourself, using Agents etc. One can go to College to learn a trade, or get on an Apprenticeship, of which there are more places now than there ever were.

I fail to see how you equate the long-term unemployed being made to work in return for continued State assistance as being anywhere near the same as "preventing people from learning a profession". If people genuinely want to learn a profession, you actually have to go out and do it yourself, go to college or get some training. You won't get that sat on the dole for 2 years. You're mixing apples and oranges.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
Private schools are a whole different story though aren't they ...... different opportunities , very unfair system and only a fool would deny it.

The State school system is perfectly adequate - the only advantages Private schools give you is in the extra curricular sphere. I went to a State school and I have learnt a profession - didn't do me any harm. I have cousins who were privately educated and they didn't. The Students own aptitude is far more important than the school.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
If you honestly believe house prices are not controlled and manipulated by the government then you must have been living under a rock for decades , if not , and I`m going with the latter , stop talking utter dribble.
They`ve been pulling houses down all over the country ever since they came into power , refusing to build any replacements , and soon you will see them claiming the economy is booming because the construction industry is finally rebuilding houses.

Oh, pulling down houses now have they? The Government has very limited influence over House prices, if you have information to the contrary, do share.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
I have a feeling , I`m good with feelings.

Clearly, you're not. Owing to the house prices, I have to rent and certainly am not profiting out of anything. Try again with your strawman attacks.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
Yet . And I do not appreciate your pathetic attempt to play dumb to any violation of laws and rights throughout these disgusting massacres of innocent people , it`s quite insulting.

Yet, you still fail to tell me what Laws were violated....... The War in Afghan was perfectly "legal", if War can ever be called that. Iraq was questionable, I'll give you that, but only on the reasons they gave. Had they said "We want rid of Saddam, I'd be all for it. The guy was a tit.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
See , just make up some bulltish "poll" and the far right will run away with it. If you had an actual poll , instead of these false polls , you`d find that most of Britain would probably be marching on downing street by now for just suggesting the return of the death penalty. How do I never seem to be involved in any of these polls ? because I`m not sitting in the coffee room with dave ? do you think I came down in the last shower of rain lad ?

You must have done, sunshine. You seem to equate your own personal feelings with that of everyone else. Say what you like, but polls are quite accurate. I think you'll find that "most of Britain" wouldn't, because if public feeling was as strong as you said, they'd have done it. Maybe they never ask you because you come across as an angry, resentful Human being....

Cont.......

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
I honestly fear the future of Britain now you Nazi lunatics are in total control , no opposition , anyone who doesn't agree gets labelled a scumbag , you buy the media and spread blatant propaganda 24/7 hoping that eventually , s*** will stick. Stirring up racism , creating division in all corners of the isles , all the while sitting back and creaming off the top ..... sick ..... and let me just make this clear , if the death penalty ever was brought back , it would be to execute the tories and their supporters for high treason .

Oh dear Lord, you really are full of it aren't you. Nazi's? I only ever see people fling that around when they have little else to offer. None of the crap you posted above is even remotely true.

Stirring up racism? How?

It's clear you're just a Tory hater, which to be perfectly honest just shows your limited political awareness. Instead of arguing in a sensible, constructive manner, you resort to personal attacks and hate filled diatribe. You can kick and scream all you like, but it wasn't the Tories who messed the country up... We had 13 years of Labour, remember? Look how well that turned out. Not that the Tories aren't a shower either and if you even had an inkling as to my political leanings, you would know I am not a Tory die hard so you're barking up the wrong tree, sunshine.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
Yes , to you and your kind ....... but to us , you`re the odd one out . Vile person.

Enough of the personal attacks - I have no idea where this is coming from, nor what purpose it serves, except perhaps making you feel a bit better about yourself which, quite frankly, is pathetic. And no, I am not "the odd one out", no matter what you say. I think, actually, it is you in the minority...


Anyway, all this is totally off topic. Stick to the OP instead of rambling like some sort of rabid Wildman. The topic is the Private Members bill to bring in National Service and you've taken it on yourself to launch into some pathetic anti-Tory rant. You know there are plenty of Tories who have introduced good PMB's? People such as Gavin Barwell MP, Peter Aldous MP, Sir Paul Beresford MP, John Glen MP and others.

Bitching and whining about all Tories as Nazi's just makes you look the fool. You don't see me banging on about Labour like they're a bunch of Stalinist control freaks, do you? Debate the issues in a grown up way, I'm sure you're capable.

I wouldn't want my child to do national service. I'd prefer my child to make choices about his future & make his own decisions on how he gets there. I don't want my child in anyone's army either unless we were being attacked/invaded.
With all due respect to serving members of the armed forces, to send the youth away for illegal wars to kill & cause endless suffering can only cause long term mental problems for many of them.
We have a failing education policy that is constantly looking for private finance & making education elitist again. I think it's fair to say that a private school edcation is better than a state one. Instead of apprenticeships they should all be studying for degrees & higher. I would prefer an educated Britain
What do the media give the youth to aspire to? How much real help is there for young people when considering careers or looking for work?
They don't need national service they need education, training & hope.

reply to post by supamoto


There is absolutely nothing wrong with an apprenticeship - I did one myself and you can degree level qualifications as well as the all important work experience. I got an HND for my troubles, which academically is worth as much as a Degree. Don't think otherwise. In comparison to my mates from school who did go to Uni, only one earns more than I do and then it's only marginally.

On the flip side, my brother joined the Navy at 17, did a few years and then left to join the same industry I am in and a few years ago, moved to the US with his wife and is on a six figure salary. He has since obtained an MBA, but this was after the fact. His experience in the Forces stood him in good stead for his later career and it is a good choice for Youngsters.

You're right though, it should be a choice to join up at the end of the day and that is why our forces are the best in the world, because we have professional volunteers.

As I said earlier, I do support a National Service, but it should give you the choice between Military and non-Military service, such as in Germany.

How can one put this politely?


The lessons of World War One are taught in every school in this country! Conscription is a Crime against Humanity.
Lions led by Donkeys is not a term we choose to forget. We hear the donkeys braying in parliament every Wednesday during question time and a shameful show it is, every time!

Yeah yeah , labour is the root of all evil .

Tories will defend themselves to the death ........ so be it.

Bring back national service ... and watch the army take the country back by force.

Labour was the best thing that ever happened to this country , new-labour was a tory hijack , UKIP is funded by the tories , soon enough we will have 3 main parties - all of them conservative by nature ......... they`ll deny that too. Pigs the lot of them.

Stumason has pretty much already said everything that needs to be said on the facts of this bill and it's likelihood to be relevant as law. It's not government policy, there is not impetus to do it, this will very likely get a little bit of attention in the press and give a right-wing nutter in parliament some desperately craved attention for his views. That's it.

But, there is room for another discussion here.

Anyone who knows me around here knows that I'm left-leaning, but I would agree in principle with a system of National Service.

However much we want to ignore the problem, there is a problem in this country with youth having no work ethic, little respect for others, selfish and greedy attitudes, and all supported by parents who are more interested in what club or bar they're going to on Saturday night than their own kids. We do indeed have a problem in this country when it comes to our disrespectful youth.

We can argue about whether we think it's bad or not, but it all comes down to where you live. If you live in a quaint little village then your perception of youth crime and violence is not going to be the same as that of someone living in a city. From my experience, living in a large town, there is a considerable problem, and it is getting worse.

You only need to look at what happened across the country the summer before last to see that this is the case in several urban areas across the country. Thousands of selfish, ignorant, arrogant and greedy teens went on a rampage. We can debate about "class issues" and "social injustice" being the cause all we like, but they didn't organize and protest, they looted and destroyed without fear of repercussions.

I think that having a volunteer National Service would be a good idea. But I also think it would be a good tool for judges and parents to have at their disposal when they think a kid is out of control. The system is broken, too many kids go into juvenile detention and come out worse than when they went in. Too many teens are let off to offend again and again, a tag on their ankle is a status symbol.

The system we have is nothing more than a toothless dog, all bark and no bite. Kids don't learn anything about the world or their place in it from the existing options. If we have a chance to actually make that punishment useful and provide an opportunity to change them in some way, then surely that is better than just locking them in a room and telling them they have to stay there for six months?

reply to post by Rocker2013


Youth have no 'work ethic' because there are barely any jobs for the youth.

Education in public school in many cases is beyond contempt.

Dumb them down, start a war and send them off for the great Cull!

Not something I will ever agaree with as a conscripted army is a burden on the state financially. They then become dangerous to government as they become 'trained men'. The government gets rid of the threat with a war and their mates make a bit of money selling armaments, uniforms and medical supplies.

Everyone happy with that?

Didn't think so.

One man's collateral damage is another man's son!

However much we want to ignore the problem, there is a problem in this country with youth having no work ethic, little respect for others, selfish and greedy attitudes, and all supported by parents who are more interested in what club or bar they're going to on Saturday night than their own kids. We do indeed have a problem in this country when it comes to our disrespectful youth.

Ignorance.... It is this attitude that gets met with hostility from the "youth". When you have the whole of the upper class - the whole of the middle class - and the idiots of the working class who think they`re middles class , all jumping on the bandwagon and kicking lumps out of every single young person in this country ....... how can you expect any respect ? What , do you think we need to start kicking them around and forcing them to eat scraps too ? teach them some discipline ? ...Psychos.

We can argue about whether we think it's bad or not, but it all comes down to where you live. If you live in a quaint little village then your perception of youth crime and violence is not going to be the same as that of someone living in a city. From my experience, living in a large town, there is a considerable problem, and it is getting worse.

No , if you live in a community then you pretty much know everyone and there`s no problems aslong as you don`t act like an ar*ehole ...... where as if you shut yourself away from the real world and simply make things up about the people around you because you`re in denial about being an ar*ehole , then it seems like people are being disrespectful as you`re not receiving the worship you seem to believe you deserve.

You only need to look at what happened across the country the summer before last to see that this is the case in several urban areas across the country. Thousands of selfish, ignorant, arrogant and greedy teens went on a rampage. We can debate about "class issues" and "social injustice" being the cause all we like, but they didn't organize and protest, they looted and destroyed without fear of repercussions.

Keep twitching behind that curtain. Messages were going out to ALL blackberry phones telling them to go out looting , anyone could have sent that , even "Dave" himself.

I think that having a volunteer National Service would be a good idea.

Stopped reading here , tired of your type , its about time we did something about this bullsh!t.

Originally posted by Elliot
Youth have no 'work ethic' because there are barely any jobs for the youth.

I see this excuse a lot, and I know it's an excuse because I can open any paper or walk into any job center or agency and find at least three jobs that a teenager could be doing.

I'll accept that there are not enough jobs for every out of work person, of course, but I know for a fact that many hundreds of thousands of teenagers CHOOSE not to work, because most of them either think they deserve to sit on their lazy butt while everyone else pays for them, or they have some massive delusion about becoming a famous rapper or DJ and they're just waiting to be "discovered".

A work ethic doesn't just come from a paid job, it can come from a voluntary position, helping out in the neighborhood, doing something in the community.

When I was a teenager I was looking forward to earning my own money, I volunteered, I gained experience, and I was then better prepared for life.

Originally posted by Elliot
Education in public school in many cases is beyond contempt.

I entirely agree. But we're not talking about education here.
Even if we were, I don't see that it's changed much from when I was a teenager.
Where are the parents? Why are they not doing something about it? If I believed the education system was failing my child (and I agree it would be) I would also be supplementing that with home schooling.

Parents love blaming the rest of society for their own failings and laziness.

Originally posted by Elliot
One man's collateral damage is another man's son!

You're talking about war, and I am anti-war. We're talking about National Service, something completely different. I think you're a little confused.

reply to post by Elliot


No, "education is not beyond contempt" even in a few cases, much less most.

The UK is ranked as 6th in World when it comes to our Education system, behind only those with truly exceptional systems, such as Japan, S. Korea and Finland. Stop selling the nation short.

Yes, there are still issues with unemployment, but that is simply a by product of the flexible workforce responding to the financial problems. Instead, this time round, there being massive lay-offs, many companies went onto shorter hours to retain their experienced staff. The problem is they were not, until recently anyway, creating new jobs so those leaving education had nothing to go into.

However, this is changing and companies are starting to recruit more and more. In a couple of years, people will be asking "what Youth employment". It may suck now, but it will pick up. People were saying the same things back during the 80's problems, but as soon as the economy picked up, the problem solved itself.

I don't think I am alone when I say I'd rather a situation where kids are unemployed in employed households, which is largely the situation now, rather than the parents too being out of work due to redundancy which is what happened last time.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
Ignorance.... It is this attitude that gets met with hostility from the "youth". When you have the whole of the upper class - the whole of the middle class - and the idiots of the working class who think they`re middles class , all jumping on the bandwagon and kicking lumps out of every single young person in this country ....... how can you expect any respect ? What , do you think we need to start kicking them around and forcing them to eat scraps too ? teach them some discipline ? ...Psychos.

Defensive much?
I am fully aware that there are a hell of a lot of great kids in this country, excellent young people who have goals, ambition, respect for others and for the community around them.
I'm talking about the faction of youth who roam the streets at night getting pissed on cheap cider, smashing up cars, robbing old ladies and thieving from the local shops.

Yes, welcome to my neighborhood! It's a place where every single night of the week there are cop cars racing up and down the streets, where graffiti adorns every other wall, where drunk parents stumble from one shop to another because someone refused them service, where kids ride around on scooters at 4 am...

You seem to be living in some kind of denial, where the basic acknowledgment of facts is deemed to be an "attack on youth". It's not an attack on youth, it's an attack on FERAL youth and INCAPABLE parents.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
No , if you live in a community then you pretty much know everyone and there`s no problems aslong as you don`t act like an ar*ehole ...... where as if you shut yourself away from the real world and simply make things up about the people around you because you`re in denial about being an ar*ehole , then it seems like people are being disrespectful as you`re not receiving the worship you seem to believe you deserve.

Right, so we're all supposed to know every one of the hundreds of thousands of people in a town, and millions in a city? I'm assuming you must live in a town of a couple of hundred people, in which case I can see your point to a degree. But most of us do not live in those tiny little communities.

And then you attack me, assuming you know me, or know anything about me...

I speak from experience, with a gang of nephews, half of which are lazy, dope-smoking, unemployable, and who I've seen grow up without discipline and without any real guidance.

So, while you think you might know a thing or two about it, so do I, because I know these young people, I grew up through my 20's surrounded by these people, I've seen them become another statistic in the system, and it was in no small part thanks to the complete lack of discipline from both parents and the system.

Originally posted by AthiestJesus
Keep twitching behind that curtain. Messages were going out to ALL blackberry phones telling them to go out looting , anyone could have sent that , even "Dave" himself.

So you absolve those actually doing it, because they were "ordered to do it"? What complete and utter tripe!

People have free will, they could look at that message, know that it was wrong, and NOT DO IT. But, something in their brains told them it was perfectly okay to go out and trash small businesses, burn peoples homes to the ground, destroy cars and cause mass disturbance across the country.

Yes, lets blame EVERYONE BUT THE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY COMMITTED THE CRIME!