Democrats, Socialist , and Communist are ahead of their time!

reply to post by Druscilla


Agreed and I think we have the same point of view.

The system we have in place is empowering the entities with the most money which typically is not the consumer. The worst thing you could do to their system is allowing for more individual freedom as you suggest because that would empower the consumer .

The other problem people see is that the corporations needs to be regulated , which I don't disagree with to a point.

However, the part that they don't see and the most crucial part of the whole thing is, that when they say we need more regulations they fail to see that those same regulations are marketed ,drafted, and pushed by the same people they are wanting to regulate.

For example the pharmaceutical industry pushed for their own industry to give more money to the FDA under the Prescription Drug User Fee Act. This bill pushed by them turned the FDA dependent on the pharmaceutical industry .

Therefore, when people ask for more FDA regulations against the pharmaceutical industry they fail to see that the pharmaceutical is partly their client and the FDA has become dependent on them to some extent. The result, Big Pharma has a strong voice on the regulation the FDA pushes to regulate themselves. That is also assuming that they don’t actually draft the regulations against themselves.

The pharmaceutical industry's influence gets exerted in a number of ways. One, starting 10 years ago [with the Prescription Drug User Fee Act of 1992], the influence was exerted by their directly funding, paying cash right up front for FDA review. So in many ways, the FDA started looking upon the industry as their client, instead of the public and the public health, which should be the client.

Sidney Wolfe has been the director of Public Citizen's Health Research Group -- an independent, nonprofit consumer-advocacy organization
www.pbs.org...

Lobbyist are ingenious magicians with infinite capabilities to utilize misdirection, by the time the public realize what they have done its to late.

reply to post by Phoenix267

That's where this debate gets a little surreal for me. Who is setting the precise definition of Communism that we're to judge and rate the nature of Governments by? Soviet Russia was governed with all things ultimate determined by the Communist Party through it's ruling organs. China still operates below the Chinese Communist Party as the core of it's national system.

The Chinese Communist Party's more than 80m-strong membership makes it the biggest political party in the world. Its tight organisation and ruthlessness help explain why it is also still in power.

The party oversees and influences many aspects of people's lives - what they learn at school and watch on TV, even the number of children they are allowed.

Source

I can see debating Karl Marx vs. any individual or Government in the modern era if his is to be the one, only and final definition of it ...but then what of the entire world Governments and nation-states which have been or are still formed and based upon it? Are they wrong and actually NOT what they believe and claim to be? If so...whose to tell them they're actually ignorant and don't know what their own system is?

That's the confusion for me. When we get into defining terms in the abstract, it's fair debate. When we're saying real world institutions are not what they are built on and present themselves to be (and have for decades).....well, what value or meaning IS there to any of the definitions? it would seem by the logic, EVERYTHING becomes fluid and open to saying it's what WE say it is or isn't?

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed


His comparison is pretty spot on. History shows this. Prove me wrong.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

Your comparison is wrong & stupid and you look like a fool. Keep believing in your own illusions how "free" you are. And keep mentioning democrats, socialism and communism in one sentence, makes you look very competent. lol. If you really think that the "liberal paradise" is a prison I can't help you, obviously you don't even have a remote idea what liberalism actually is.

Nice Ad hominem

As opposed to anyone thinking Democrats, socialists, and communists is all about 'freedom' ?

Liberalism is about freedom not about a centralized government going around giving people corporate products, and telling them how special they are, and making people slaves to the state.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


They're communist in name only though. I understand the frustration in trying to understand what Marx and other older views of communism compared to people who used the term when various governments influenced by Marx and/or the successful revolutions like the Soviet revolution. I'll explain why I doubt there was or is a real communist society.

The difference between communist inspired by Marx and anarchist communism is that they differ on how communism should come about. With the former believing a socialist government needs to be form and then some how steps down and communist is in. While the later disagrees about the need for a new government and that communism should come about instantly. I read a lot of various articles and books to get this info. So I'm just typing from memory. Wikipedia entry of communism is good for a start.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I have no doubt the Democrats, Socialists and Communists on this website will just go bananas in joy and gratitude that you so casually corral them all together to share the same family of ideology. You apparently have no idea how many threads and how viciously I've personally debated and watched this debated by real socialists and real communists vs. Democrats for how those are 3 totally DIFFERENT things (which, in honesty, they ARE different, if somewhat related).

Ahead of their time though? Okay... That means their time is yet to come and if you'll make it about 20-25 years? Their time will come after nature has called me to other planes of existence. Whew.. Thank God for small favors!

See....the last time? It killed 60 million innocent civilians between Soviet Russia and Red China. I'll be HAPPY to see 'their time' be far beyond MY time for life in this world. Sorry for my son to have to suffer the worst sides of at least 2 of those 3 ideologies ..but better him than me.

I didn't say they were the same ideals. However to some point they do entrust individual ownership over to some type of entity over themselves and to some point the are looking to spread fairness through some type of entity as well by minimizing individual power. So as long you entrust some entity you should take great caution to ensure its motives and possibilities for corruption. Unfortunately, our gov't and humanity is to susceptible to external monetary influences to empower such a power over any centralized entity to make any of those system a reality.


I said Ahead of their time never said that time would come or when

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

 

Your comparison is wrong & stupid and you look like a fool. Keep believing in your own illusions how "free" you are. And keep mentioning democrats, socialism and communism in one sentence, makes you look very competent. lol. If you really think that the "liberal paradise" is a prison I can't help you, obviously you don't even have a remote idea what liberalism actually is.

Nice Ad hominem

As opposed to anyone thinking Democrats, socialists, and communists is all about 'freedom' ?

Liberalism is about freedom not about a centralized government going around giving people corporate products, and telling them how special they are, and making people slaves to the state.

It looked like a compliment there.....

And keep mentioning democrats, socialism and communism in one sentence, makes you look very competent. lol.

In a frosted frenzied haste, I think NoRulesAllowed forgot the "in" before "competent"

So I will repeat the "competence" ... democrats, socialism and communism in one sentence.

It's only fair after all, the Liberals always lump Conservatives and Republicans and Right Wing into one group.

So much for 'collectivism'

I haven't seen all the replies, but saw a few that didn’t appear constructive in any way by using such term as stupid .

I think for the most part we all have the same agenda to make a better world , despite our differing views on how we get there.

I also never said socialism, communism, and democrats were the same.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by interupt42

 

I don't think that those ideologies are right for me. I can think for myself and don't need others who think that they know what's best for me, telling what I can and cannot do.

You can't legislate common sense yet that is what they try to do.

I would rather all ideology driven parties just disappear. They are a nuisance and ruining my vibe.

I'm not disagreeing and I tend to like to make my own decisions versus some entity telling what is best for the greater good or for myself.

But I can see the appeal of those ideals, but unfortunately neither yourself or them will ever see any of those ideals become a reality. After all , those are not new concepts yet we have no true form of socialism,communism ,anarchy, or capitalism implemented anywhere (at least that I'm aware of) around the world?

Basically no system besides the one that we have implemented will ever evolve (without violence anyway, which I'm not suggesting) as long as we continue to give exorbitant amount of power to the lobbying industries (Highest bidder)

reply to post by xuenchen


Guess they didn't read the op

Democrats, Socialist , and Communist are ahead of their time!

reply to post by neo96


That is exactly why I say they are ahead of their time , humanity and world governments are to vulnerable to greed and corruption for such a system to ever evolve without being contaminated.

Maybe if we ever evolve and remove greed as a form of Self-preservation from today’s so called civilized societies then those system could be feasible to implement?

However, IMO the best thing we can do today is to give power back to the consumer, the voters, and the majority of the people by addressing how the lobbying industry works today? While the worst thing we can do is give more power to a gov't or centralized entity while under the influence of special interest groups.

Originally posted by interupt42

However, all those ideologies are ahead of their time, because they can not truly exist or flourish without corruption and greed being nullified

The "purist" argument of communism, socialism, and such is null and void as far as the world is concerned.

It can not exist because it can not exist. That simple. corruption and greed will always play a part as long as we are human.

I don't think they are ahead of their time....they are immature and childish.

"fair" is what children concern themselves with. True and functional is what adults aim for...because we like civilization enough to strive to keep it going.

Nature is not "fair" either. "fair" is unnatural when your aim is to preserve those that would drain the life out of others that are focused on the groups progress, not the survival of the threats to the groups survival.

In nature if you don't work for the good of the group, then you die off..why? because if not the group dies off by taking your example or by your efforts.

evil and lazy men die all the time. that's life. True fairness is rewarding hard work and punishing advantageous and lazy behavior that leeches of the existence of others. That is fair and true.

all else is a lie.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

 

Your comparison is wrong & stupid and you look like a fool. Keep believing in your own illusions how "free" you are. And keep mentioning democrats, socialism and communism in one sentence, makes you look very competent. lol. If you really think that the "liberal paradise" is a prison I can't help you, obviously you don't even have a remote idea what liberalism actually is.

Nice Ad hominem

As opposed to anyone thinking Democrats, socialists, and communists is all about 'freedom' ?

Liberalism is about freedom not about a centralized government going around giving people corporate products, and telling them how special they are, and making people slaves to the state.

Then why did you post a picture of a prison together with the claim (for some bizarre reason) that a prison is supposedly "Liberal's Paradise"? That this is entirely absurd...did you realize this?

reply to post by tadaman


I guess I took the more politically correct route

reply to post by interupt42

Unfortunately, our gov't and humanity is to susceptible to external monetary influences to empower such a power over any centralized entity to make any of those system a reality.

Okay, so to be fair in trying to understand your point here, as you obviously put time and effort into making this for us to discuss? You're not advocating these ideals be put into place in the real world we all inhabit today, as we see it right now...right?

We may just have a bit of agreement if I'm reading you right there. I mean, socialism DOES work in some areas of the world, in limited and highly localized variants to the nation doing it. I really meant I don't believe any of them are inherently evil or even unfair ....just not possible under human greed and hubris we see today.

Originally posted by interupt42
reply to post by neo96

 

That is exactly why I say they are ahead of their time , humanity and world governments are to vulnerable to greed and corruption for such a system to ever evolve without being contaminated.

Maybe if we ever evolve and remove greed as a form of Self-preservation from today’s so called civilized societies then those system could be feasible to implement?

However, IMO the best thing we can do today is to give power back to the consumer, the voters, and the majority of the people by addressing how the lobbying industry works today? While the worst thing we can do is give more power to a gov't while under the influence of special interest groups.

edit on 25-7-2013 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)

No they aren't they are just recycled rhetoric people fighting over resources same crap different day on the world stage of history.

reply to post by NoRulesAllowed

hen why did you post a picture of a prison together with the claim (for some bizarre reason) that a prison is supposedly "Liberal's Paradise"? That this is entirely absurd...did you realize this?

I agree absurd!

That Democrats,Socialists, and communists need to stop passing themselves off as 'liberal'

And people stop trying to argue with me especially over

FIAT CURRENCY AND CORPORATE PRODUCTS.

Back to the rob from the rich give to the poor statist's who have an identity crisis of what they want to call themselves.

Bunch of materialistic, greedy people

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by interupt42

 

Unfortunately, our gov't and humanity is to susceptible to external monetary influences to empower such a power over any centralized entity to make any of those system a reality.

Okay, so to be fair in trying to understand your point here, as you obviously put time and effort into making this for us to discuss? You're not advocating these ideals be put into place in the real world we all inhabit today, as we see it right now...right?

Correct.

Furthermore it makes no sense to me that anyone would want to give gov't more power and increase its presence in our lives , while the gov't is dependent on monetary influences from the very industries they are trying to regulate in our best interest?

We may just have a bit of agreement if I'm reading you right there. I mean, socialism DOES work in some areas of the world, in limited and highly localized variants to the nation doing it. I really meant I don't believe any of them are inherently evil or even unfair ....just not possible under human greed and hubris we see today.

I agree

reply to post by interupt42

while the gov't is dependent on monetary influences from the very industries they are trying to regulate in our best interest?

Well, I'm glad I stayed after this.... It turns out we aren't too far off after all, then.

I quoted the above because it's where I think we stand for how Capitalism has ultimately failed as well. It, too, can be a great system and has been ..more or less..for decades. Then, sometime in the last 15 years, the balance (always a shaky one) between BIG Business and Government just vanished entirely and the two got married for a long and close loving relationship .....to our apparent doom.