American Irony

Originally posted by MDDoxs

Originally posted by sonnny1
Man.

This dribble is just that.

221 dead children, drone strikes, etc................

And a speech.

Nuff said.

This is border line propaganda no?

I thought i read a thread a little while ago that the US was looking to repeal some propaganda laws...Perhaps the secret courts have approved this

and succeeded. It's a done deal.
techdirt

reply to post by Hefficide


Hey bro,

So are you in fact trying to say that the people of the world wouldn't mind American people helping them, but world governements dont want the US government 'helping/intefering' with their business?

Would it not be better to actually email this to The Whitehouse and the president himself?? You know... so he actually sees it?? Just sayin.....

PA

I really just don't get it. The outrage that is. The indignation. You act as though America has just begun to exploit the world. This has been going on since the beginning of the American empire. We have never exported freedom, justice, and the American way. It has always been about exploitation. What, are you just waking up?

I suppose your point is that The president has some nerve promoting freedom while here at home we are being enslaved. Why jump down so hard Obama's throat? This acknowledgement of the lack of freedom in other parts of the world has been going on since '59

I understand that here in America we are experiencing an erosion of personal liberty, or more correctly an increasing intrusion of institutional power into our lives. But what do you expect? The world while becoming increasingly more populated is getting closer and more compact, with physical distances meaning very little. More and more we are becoming subject to the whims of those halfway around the planet. How do you control this influence?

Everyone is aghast at changes in the world's power structure, and yet show no real awareness of changes in our systems of living over the last several years.

I look at The United States. and our system of state governments, and federal governments. This is a dysfunctional system. Each state organizes its affairs and it does not always mesh well with those of the other states. Each state insisting on it's own prerogatives, often at the expense of other states. This causes sever disruptions, not only in commerce but also in personal affairs.

So I ask all those against it, what's so wrong with a one world government?

See the world for what it really is. Focus your fight on justice within this new order. Insist on dignity for the individual. Embrace the efficiency, and demand the fruits of this be made available for all.

Here in the States, we tend to focus on the stalwart nature of principal while we exist in our privileged state, and have little regard for the conditions of billions of other humans around the planet. Deplorable conditions. Conditions that have in large part allowed us to live in our relative state of comfort.

I personally don't see anything wrong with throwing a nod out to these people, letting them know we are aware.

The world ain't perfect, and it's never going to be. But it's going to change. You can count on that.

That is the most shameless piece of Orwellian propaganda I've ever read.

I mean besides the fact the notions expressed in it are complete and utter nonsense, it's a day that was inaugurated by Eisenhower during the Cold War and I'm sure by "captive" countries they were talking about communist or left-leaning ones, or most probably ones that didn't play by American rules.

The whole of American history is awash with outrages, atrocities and disgraceful episodes. Yet the stuff that gets fed to the general population is a load of myths and clap trap founded upon the false premise that the United States is a shining beacon of liberty and democracy.

It makes me cringe.

Well spotted, Heff, as usual. But it doesn't matter, at present, what the president has written, it wasn't written for our benefit. What matters is what future generations think and feel about this historical proclamation and how it helped form the world they live in.

"See, children, president Obama was indeed a great, compassionate leader who made the world a better place." ~ Not-too-distant History Teacher.

Just my two cents.

Have a good Hump-day.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Eh, your nit-picking the left/right crap... and the divisions are in the details.

You won't get an argument from me over the general principle that some people are smarter and more industrious than others, and thus deserve more "luxury." Why not?

What you will get an argument from me about is the distinction between luxury and necessity and the callous fact that we let people freeze, starve or if "lucky," work to the point of despair because of those stratified perceptions.

In the big picture, every part of the working economic machine is important... and the winners in this free-for-some system are only winners by being willfully oblivious to their own misuse of other humans and our only environment for their overblown personal gain... which I find repugnant.

Throwing shallow left-right arguments around misses the big picture that most of the people in power are not in it for the average citizen or any long term goal anymore. Squabbling over who gets healthcare is abominable in this age where we have the resources to feed, clothe, shelter and care for everyone if those resources were equitably managed.

The details of that "management" are problematic, true, but clutching your stuff, worrying that the gov will give it to some lazy, undeserving wretch misses the big picture that the gov isn't trying to re-distribute wealth, they're consolidating it with the already disgustingly wealthy.

So I meant a system that is just a tad more balanced where everyone has their basic needs meant, and if that means some at the top have a little less, not only will they not notice, but it's only fair.

I feel it's gone beyond left/right ideology and is more criminal in nature. I remember a time where even the most staunch conservative realized some interference with some people's greed was called for.

Originally posted by okyouwin
I really just don't get it. The outrage that is. The indignation. You act as though America has just begun to exploit the world. This has been going on since the beginning of the American empire. We have never exported freedom, justice, and the American way. It has always been about exploitation. What, are you just waking up?

when we started this ride, back in '41, it WAS about defeating evil, and freeing oppressed peoples..after the end of the war, things were corrupted, and it got gradually worse....up to, and including today.

whether you believe it or not, we DID start with noble intentions...evil men took advantage of that, and twisted it into what we see today..

I suppose your point is that The president has some nerve promoting freedom while here at home we are being enslaved. Why jump down so hard Obama's throat? This acknowledgement of the lack of freedom in other parts of the world has been going on since '59

you're missing the point...

it's not JUST obama...he's just the latest in a long line of presidents that have been working to usurp the rights of the people...before, they did it in secret, behind closed doors, in the shadows...but now, seeing how stupid, and lazy, and apathetic the majority of us have become, they don't feel the need to even hide it anymore. Obama is worse than bush the second, who was worse than clinton, who was worse than bush the first, who was worse than reagan, and so on, and so forth....

it is insulting to us that a president who LIED to us to get into office, and who LIES to us on a regular basis.....who has one of the worst administrations in our history, who has done MORE to transform this into a fascist, socialist, police state, which is totally antithetical to the concepts of personal liberty, and freedom of the people at large, would have the audacity to make a statement about oppression, and loss of freedom abroad, as if such conditions are not in fact, in effect right here at home.

I understand that here in America we are experiencing an erosion of personal liberty, or more correctly an increasing intrusion of institutional power into our lives. But what do you expect? The world while becoming increasingly more populated is getting closer and more compact, with physical distances meaning very little. More and more we are becoming subject to the whims of those halfway around the planet. How do you control this influence?

how do you control the influence? obey the supreme law of the land, and don't allow yourself to be dictated to by foreign interests. it's really quite simple.

Everyone is aghast at changes in the world's power structure, and yet show no real awareness of changes in our systems of living over the last several years.

could you elaborate upon this statement? i'm not entirely sure what you mean by it

I look at The United States. and our system of state governments, and federal governments. This is a dysfunctional system. Each state organizes its affairs and it does not always mesh well with those of the other states. Each state insisting on it's own prerogatives, often at the expense of other states. This causes sever disruptions, not only in commerce but also in personal affairs.

it's only dysfunctional, because it is not operating the way in which it was intended...and this is primarily due to federal encroachment into areas, where it has no constitutional jurisdiction.

So I ask all those against it, what's so wrong with a one world government?

loss of sovereignty, one's way of life, and liberty.

See the world for what it really is. Focus your fight on justice within this new order. Insist on dignity for the individual. Embrace the efficiency, and demand the fruits of this be made available for all.

that sounds a bit socialist....especially the last bit.

Here in the States, we tend to focus on the stalwart nature of principal while we exist in our privileged state, and have little regard for the conditions of billions of other humans around the planet. Deplorable conditions. Conditions that have in large part allowed us to live in our relative state of comfort.

because it is not our place to be concerned with those things....i applaud those who are concerned with it, and they usually talk with their wallet on such issues. bottom line, if companies hadn't been allowed to move all those jobs out of the country, the conditions you speak of would be GREATLY reduced.

I personally don't see anything wrong with throwing a nod out to these people, letting them know we are aware.

The world ain't perfect, and it's never going to be. But it's going to change. You can count on that.

no, nothing wrong with throwing them a nod....but it would seem a hell of a lot more sincere, and be more relevant, and carry more weight, if it weren't so hypocritical.

reply to post by Hefficide


This situation is only made all the more frusrating by the lack of targets to fight. I would gladly support revolution, but since I don't truely believe Obama is pulling the strings, how do I fight back? I want to fight for the rights our forefathers fought and died for, but I don't see how. I'll be looking toward Canada or something along those lines for the future of my family and I.

reply to post by Baddogma

What you will get an argument from me about is the distinction between luxury and necessity and the callous fact that we let people freeze, starve or if "lucky," work to the point of despair because of those stratified perceptions.

I'm sorry but I can see right through your anti-Capitalist stance. There is a difference between true free enterprise and the liberty to pursue happiness, and what we call crony Capitalism, or monopolist or oligopolistic Capitalism. You do not seem to be able to make the distinction, thus lumping it all into one category you call "fascism:". That is the typical mistake people make when they do not understand that fascism is cut from the same Totalitarian cloth as Communism and Socialism. Socialism is a leech off of the productive entrepreneurs and we cannot have a free society when the State can force individuals to give up their paychecks for a supposed Utopian ideal of taking care of everybody equally which exists nowhere in any part of the world, and has never been proven to work in all of recorded history.

As far as "nit-picking" and "callousness", I could be very to the point and give you a direction to go in, but I will be nicer and explain that the argument socialists put forth in attacking free enterprise and those who espouse liberty is a false premise.
Adam Smith explained well the concept that when people are allowed to help themselves they help society. We are not raising society when forcing more and more people to be on the dole. You know that old saying, give a person a fish and he will have a meal for a day, teach a person to fish and he can feed himself.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Well, perhaps I didn't make myself clear... which isn't unusual.

I have an open mind in regards to some leftist ideology, true, but that also goes for capitalism and it's associated right wing credos. Some of my diatribe wasn't meant to be personal and if you are offended... oops.

I do really, truly think the core matter right now is that none of the ideologies we're arguing over actually exist in the real world. It's a fixed game and that, in particular, should... has to change.

Once some balance is restored, then the details can be mulled over. The best times for all was when these two extremes met in the middle.

Personally, I'm hoping for material goods to appear when one wishes really, really hard... and in case that gets misunderstood, I'm kidding.

Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Hefficide

 

S+F, Hefficide.
Thanks for posting this. I will foward it.

The best parts (seen from a foreign POV) btw:

As citizens of the oldest democracy on earth [...]

Lol.

Our commitment to universal rights is also a foundation for American leadership abroad.

Rofl.

In too many parts of the world, fundamental freedoms remain unrealized, and the protections of law extend only to a privileged few.

You don't say...

Captive Nations Week is an opportunity to reaffirm America's role in advancing human rights worldwide. It is a task that can begin here, with the example we set [...]

Yeah, the GREAT example you set!

[...] we must reject the notion that those who live in distant places do not yearn for freedom, self-determination, dignity, and the rule of law, just as we do.

Unbelievable...

It's what I call double-speak . He doesn't mean it for the public, but for foreign investors, to reassure them that the serfs are under control of the overlords, and that the country is still open for "investment" (or looting and pillaging).

reply to post by Hefficide


Excellent Post Heff.
You pretty much laid out all the view points I have held myself

Originally posted by ownbestenemy

I want a "left" leaning one, I go conduct it in a major metropolis such as New York or Detroit. You want a "right" leaning one? Go to the mid-west farm towns. Point being, 1000 people do not define 300 million of us.

That is why polls are a sham.

Very Good Point.
It is not unlike the sham poll they pulled with the "Washington Post" A Washington DC based newspaper that claimed 50% of American's approved of being spied upon. Washington DC is heavy in not Democrats and Conservatives, but Government Workers and Politicians that make their living off Government Programs.
So a Washington DC based newspaper could poll locally to get the results they want.

reply to post by okyouwin


So, you support an even bigger government and wealth redistribution? World wide government will give us worldwide corruption. Government is always the main source of parasitic drag on progress and economic growth. Since you always get more of whatever you subsidize the end point of wealth transfer from producers to consumers is fewer and fewer producers producing less while a growing non-producer class ends up using the power of government to eat the seed corn and then we all starve.

No Thanks to that idea. Fifty states protected from Federal over reaching power by the tenth Amendment was supposed to protect us from that fate. Toffler predicted small local responsive government would replace Big Government from "afar". It doesn't look like that's coming anytime soon but the opposite is certain to collapse under it's own weight as it has in all of history. Expecting a One World government to solve world wide problems is like turning on the landing lights at the airport in hopes that Amelia Erhart will return.

Originally posted by neo96

Originally posted by ArtooDetoo

Originally posted by frazzle
reply to post by ArtooDetoo

 

Why is that ?

Maybe because polls are as rigged as elections?

Allright.

So the following pole was also rigged?!

August 2007
On August 6–8, CNN polled 1,029 adults nationwide. 33% said they favored the war in Iraq, 64% opposed

You cant invade another country without having a majority of your citizens supporting the invasion. It's impossible.

Yep first off its CNN

Second off the majority of people in this country don't even vote.

So yea rigged poll

So they rigged the polls back in 1965 aswell ?

Originally posted by ArtooDetoo
So they rigged the polls back in 1965 aswell ?

You are so hung up on this and other than being obtuse, I just cannot see why. First, polls do not represent the cross-section of a nation. Maybe statistically it could be said, but since we are a very diverse nation -- where we have 50 separate but equal (for the time being) States of Government, it is hard to just poll 1000 people and say "Look! They like X and not Y!"

To believe those polls is to be ignorant. People in Utah want life a different way than that in New York. That was the grand idea behind a small central Government, while allowing the various states (and by near direct extension the People) to play with how they wanted their society to look.

ETA: If you don't think pollsters have access to a gigantic amount of demographic data to conduct these polls you are just willfully believing these to be honest, "random" polls --- sorta "man on the street". They aren't. Even if they are "randomly" selected they are done so to produce a result desired.

For instance: In regards to war efforts. I would poll heavily in zip-codes and area-codes in and around military bases or heavily populated retiree locations. Catching the drift?

reply to post by Daedalus


Well thanks for replying. I see your concern You've laid out my thoughts and addressed each point. I usually don't quote and can't go back over the whole post and sometime I forget parts. I like how you separated the thoughts I had.

Yeah, fighting evil. That was a good job back in those days. Our efforts it seems were a little short as there is still plenty of it out there. And I believe the corruption started right away.

I like how you understand this has been a generational problem, the loss of freedom, starting many presidents ago. I guess things are just piling on real fast now with Obama, as thing are getting close to the, what would you say, final solution.

Obeying the law of the land has a certain ring of conformity to it, but I can see where it would have it's merits. I guess the question is law of which land. What with sovereignty and all, way of life, liberty and such. I guess it depends on where you live.

As to the nod out being questioned because of the hypocrisy issue, I think for the United States, being somewhat of a accepted world leader in this area, some kind of address is expected.

I suggest you look at this not as someone who is to have his eyes poked out and harnessed to the relentless demand of overlords. That's already been done. But rather see the possibilities of a cooperation a oneness of unity that will lift each individual. The new world order is your friend, not your foe.

The Constitution, an infallible document, a bedrock for perfection or an evolving contract for the society of men.

If you like sitting around the campfire looking for the odd rabbit to eat, go for it. I personally like the comfy situation we got going to day. Maybe just spread it out a little bit. Socialism? How about kindness? How about welcoming our fellow humans and strive for a common security.

I watched an Animal Planet show the other day and they talked about the chimpanzee that ate that women's face off awhile back. You might remember it. The chimp had been hanging out for 13 years, being cute and cooperative. a regular pleasure. Then one day changed and it was a horror. No one had any idea why. Animal behaviorists couldn't explain it and finally determined that chimps just like aggression, they enjoy it, and eventually just go there. I'm hoping that mankind has it a little over the chimpanzee in this regard.

But hey, I'm all for freedom day myself. But I guess that's week or was that month? What's the difference? Happy freedom. Spread it around.

Originally posted by pgwodhouse
reply to post by okyouwin

 

So, you support an even bigger government and wealth redistribution? World wide government will give us worldwide corruption. Government is always the main source of parasitic drag on progress and economic growth. Since you always get more of whatever you subsidize the end point of wealth transfer from producers to consumers is fewer and fewer producers producing less while a growing non-producer class ends up using the power of government to eat the seed corn and then we all starve.

No Thanks to that idea. Fifty states protected from Federal over reaching power by the tenth Amendment was supposed to protect us from that fate. Toffler predicted small local responsive government would replace Big Government from "afar". It doesn't look like that's coming anytime soon but the opposite is certain to collapse under it's own weight as it has in all of history. Expecting a One World government to solve world wide problems is like turning on the landing lights at the airport in hopes that Amelia Erhart will return.

Whoa buddy. I didn't say none of that.

Wealth redistribution? Is that really such a radical concept. Even in your picture perfect world of hard working Americans, wealth is constantly being redistributed. Maybe we should look in on this redistribution since it's going on all the time.

Hey parasitic drag, that's your idea. Some parasitic activity is very beneficial in nature. The problem comes when a parasite gets to sucking too much out of the body common. If you want to find out what is wrong with the system just look to who is sucking the most out of the host, in this case the commons, the bounty that is our birthright, the world on which and in which we live.I think capitalism is an especially good way of identifying these people. They are usually the ones at the top.

Ah. Seed corn. We should never get so uppity as to forget about food. I think some of our capitalistic heroes pretty much made off with most of the seed corn years ago

The overreaching power is what makes the concept of 50 united states, work. The tyranny of local government over local citizens is all to common, and redress falls to our greater collective body of expectations and standards. A local government is better at deciding specific needs and methods. However creation of rules and laws often end up with a powerful in place minority and can unfairly serve that minority. Well you see the need for oversight.

Like I say I'm all for freedom.

reply to post by Baddogma

Personally, I'm hoping for material goods to appear when one wishes really, really hard

Not misunderstood, if you are talking about direct precipitation from the Universal Supply, which I'm all for, but we lost that sometime I think around Atlantean times. If you have read the books from the I Am movement, they talk about this precipitation as some Adepts do know how. In the meantime it's all indirect for the rest of us.
Thank you for clarifying things. I am just used to arguing with people about socialism, so I do apologize if I misunderstood any of your meanings.