WHAT?? MSNBC host Ed Schultz blames Republican policies for bankrupting Detroit.

Originally posted by Indigo5
What did Detroit "do to themselves"?
And how did Unions relate to the economic troubles?

Lemme' guess .. MSNBC fan?
Read and learn, young grasshopper ....

Detroit Commits Suicide by Government

The city undertook a controlled experiment in what happens if you are governed by a toxic combination of Great Society big spenders, race hustlers, crooks, public-sector unions and ineffectual reformers. It spent and misgoverned itself into the ground. ....

The city was at the pioneering edge of urban liberalism and discovered that all the social spending in the world doesn't deliver order, family stability, education, economic dynamism, or effective governance. In the hands of Detroit's rotten political class, it proved inimical to all of those things. ....

Detroit is a city that has celebrated and feasted on government for decades and yet is incapable of the most basic function of government. Crimes basically aren't solved. The clearance rate is 8.7 percent. The report of the city's emergency manager says this is driven by the police department's "lack of a case management system, lack of accountability for detectives, unfavorable work rules imposed by collective bargaining agreements and a high attrition rate in the investigative operations unit."

Investors Business Daily - Detroit Bankruptcy Caused by Unions/Government

Detroit, however, is dead, and unions and government killed it. Michigan recently became a right-to-work state, but it was too late to save a city that had become beholden to unions. As the United Auto Workers helped destroy the auto industry in and around Detroit, it's no accident that Mercedes-Benz decided to build its flagship SUV in a shiny new facility in Vance, Ala.

Labor overhead was an albatross around Detroit's neck. Until recently, total pay and benefits for a full-time worker at the Big Three averaged $140,000 a year vs. $80,000 for their foreign competitors. Add an estimated $2,000-plus per car for retiree health care and pensions for the Big Three, and you wonder not why Detroit failed, but why it didn't fail sooner.

Detroit's response to a declining business climate was more taxes, fewer city services and bloated pensions for workers in the only growth area — government.

Detroit Bankruptcy Filing a ‘Stunning Rebuke’ to Government Union Bosses and Their Puppet Politicians

As Detroit News columnist Daniel Howes discusses in the commentary linked below, a key factor in the Motor City’s downfall has been its mismanaged, bloated and grossly inefficient municipal workforce. And government union bosses wielding monopoly-bargaining power over teachers, police, firefighters, and other public employees are largely responsible for blocking for decades reforms that could have furnished residents far superior services at a much more reasonable cost.

Howes also points out that retired union members are likely to get hit especially hard as a consequence of the bankruptcy that the government union chiefs who purport to “represent” them have helped foist on Detroit.

Detroit Water and Sewage Department shows problem with government unions

There’s something rotten in the state of Detroit Water and Sewage Department operations.

A new report by the independent firm EMA out of St. Paul, Minn., shows massive overspending and recommends that four out of every five jobs be outsourced or eliminated.

Stephen Henderson, editorial page editor at the Detroit Free Press, observes that this entity has become a jobs program run for the benefit of its employees, not taxpayers and water consumers:

Detroit and the Bankruptcy of Liberalism

Detroit .. the Lefts Model for Success

Fifty years of Democrats running the city of Detroit led to it filing for bankruptcy last week. Unsustainable demands from its 48 unions gradually drove out private industry, as government became the largest employer. Its shrinking tax base can no longer support the massive pension debt obligations and still provide a minimum level of city services. Nearly half of the city’s debt is to underfunded pension plans and retirees.

CNN ex Detroit Mayor Kilpatrick Convicted in Corruption Case

I could keep going with how Detroit mismanaged funds ... schools and prisons and municipalities ....

Former administrator at Michigan Department of Corrections slams agency for mismanagement, failure to supervise offenders

The Michigan Department of Corrections has failed to properly manage its $2-billion budget and has released thousands of dangerous criminals into the community without adequate supervision -- resulting in more than 34 murders tied to parolees and probationers in southeast Michigan since June 2011, the former director of internal affairs charged in a complaint released Thursday.....

He claims millions of dollars for a program to help integrate parolees back into the community is unaccounted for, and he was rebuffed when he asked for a forensic accounting and an FBI investigation to account for the missing money. ...

Marschke alleges some money for the MPRI went to a private contractor in Muskegon, who was paid $1 million for mental health services, but that contract was never fulfilled. The grievance says a top MDOC official used state money to pay for a dog-sitter to stay at her home after she took a job in New York and was waiting to sell her Michigan home.

Defund Detroit Public Schools

Detroit is crumbling, with public schools leading the way toward total dissolution. After decades of mismanagement and malfeasance, after countless scandals and promised reforms, after losing about half of its student population since 2001, the end seems finally, perhaps mercifully, here. The Detroit public school system is on the edge of bankruptcy.

Waste, corruption, and theft are endemic to the Detroit Public School System. A recent audit found 257 “employees” are receiving paychecks despite the fact that they seem not to exist. Separate audits of the District’s finances have found $600,000 missing or misspent, $158,000 in furniture missing, and over-spending of $1.9 million. A recent FBI investigation led to the indictment of two employees on charges of stealing around $400,000 from the district. That’s just what they can prove to date.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
An odd coincidence of events is that I will be in Detroit in 30 minutes.

Too bad it's not hockey season. You could go to a Red Wings game.
It's the only thing Detroit has left that it can be proud of.
I wonder how long it'll be before the Red Wings have to move out of the dump called 'Detroit'.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Marxist Socialist policies and massive depopulation due to high crime and higher taxes is to blame.

How so? It seems ironic that posters deriding Ed Shultz explanation as stupid...quickly offer thier own equally stupid explanations.

I would argue that depopulation and increased crime was a result of fewer jobs due to outsourcing?...unrestrained free-market capitalism.

edit on 23-7-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

The number one reason for corporate and private migration is taxes. People want to keep what they earn.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
An odd coincidence of events is that I will be in Detroit in 30 minutes.

Too bad it's not hockey season. You could go to a Red Wings game.
It's the only thing Detroit has left that it can be proud of.
I wonder how long it'll be before the Red Wings have to move out of the dump called 'Detroit'.

I think the Lions will move to Los Angeles. And I would like to see the Tigers or Red Wings or both move to Indianapolis.

reply to post by jimmyx


I sure wish our moment of agreement could be on a more positive subject, eh? I recall Detroit from the mid-late 90's when it was still a thriving city and really, no different to deliver into as a trucker than any other big city. No better, but certainly no worse. Just another big, dirty city was all.

Now I really fear and feel for those living in and around Detroit. We have some very good people right here at ATS who fit that description for where they live and I'll just leave it there for them to say more if they choose...except to say my sincere thoughts and hopes for their well being are extended whenever they cross my mind.

It's just amazing to look at what the place has become... So sad, yet nothing says it can't repeat in places like Indiana or Ohio or California for that matter. Hubris. That's what's done this. Extreme Hubris from all sides involved.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I hear you Wrabbit, I live in Stockton, ca...now, the 2nd biggest city bankruptcy thanks to Detroit,....... however, ours was caused by a whole set of different problems, where both left-leaning and right-leaning leaders were trying to overcome an "image" problem, by selling out to greed and corruption. they even spent 1 million dollars of city money, to bring in Neil Diamond for a one night concert, thinking that it would boost our image. there were obviously other blunders, both intentionally corrupt, and unintentionally naïve. but, even with that said, it doesn't come close to the depths of the trouble that has befallen Detroit. there are financially competent lefties, and socially competent righties, that could come together to "fix" these problems, but, they tend to be drowned out by the "noise" of derision.

reply to post by jimmyx


Stockton, eh? Well you do know about the hardships going across the nation right now, to be sure. That city always hits the short list for current places suffering the worst in raw numbers, if nothing else.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but one of the primary staging areas for produce truckers in the Northern half of California are the truck stops at Ripon. Some weeks I swear, I spent more time at the Flying J there than I did actually in produce sheds grabbing groceries. It's such a nice area with decent folks. No one deserves what's happening out here right now. Not like this.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by jimmyx

 

Stockton, eh? Well you do know about the hardships going across the nation right now, to be sure. That city always hits the short list for current places suffering the worst in raw numbers, if nothing else.

I don't know if you're aware of it, but one of the primary staging areas for produce truckers in the Northern half of California are the truck stops at Ripon. Some weeks I swear, I spent more time at the Flying J there than I did actually in produce sheds grabbing groceries. It's such a nice area with decent folks. No one deserves what's happening out here right now. Not like this.

you're right...with all that is happening now in the central valley, let alone in our nation, my wife and I have actually looked for retirement living alternatives, the most promising to me is Uraguay, it is similar in climate, due to it being roughly the same distance that Stockton is from the equator, it has an ample supply of water due to it's underground aquifers, it sits between Argentina and Brazil, both fairly stable governments, and it being on the southern Atlantic, it is quite distant from any Fukushima fallout, out of the way (as mush as possible) from future Islamic v. western conflicts, many more advantages I could get into, but you get my drift.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Flyers, I live in a very liberal town. Some of us have been attending city commission meetings where we get to hear what is on the agenda for them to discuss. Last Tuesday, one of our conservative commissioners presented a case for firing the city manager. He said that our form of government is Representative Republican and that hiring a city manager goes around Republican government of traditional mayoral local governments because a mayor is elected by the people and a city manager is appointed by somebody. He said that the Progressives have been interfering with our Republican form of government since the early 1900's with methods such as replacing mayors with unelected city managers.
Then the budget was brought up on the agenda, and it was presented that the city is over the budget and that it expands by about half a million every year. In a town of about 7000 that sounds pretty unsustainable, to use agenda 21 language.
Interestingly, the city just approved a project for upgrading a crumbling water treatment plant and sewage which will raise the taxes on said 7000 or so residents. It has to be done because it hadn't been done ever and it's a historic town. Many of the buildings are here since the early 1900's or even late 1800's. Now what made me think of all this was your posting on the water and sewage mismanagement as part of the problem with the city of Detroit.
You see, here the Unions run things, and I was told by a former commissioner that money had been raised for the project, but that it all had disappeared( gone to the Unions) so now they had to raise taxes. The taxes will be raised permanently.
There is very little if any business growth here. They refused a Wal Mart so we have to drive to the next town who got the Wal Mart. That means that we have very little in the way of amenities because like it or not, small mom and pop stores don't carry the level of merchandise and cannot afford the overhead. Many of us drive to the nearest town to the Costco. That town is flourishing while ours is a pit of decay and few amenities. I heard both towns were relatively same size at one time.
I suspect there are no tax incentives for business growth, as businesses bring both people and jobs.
Other things have been refused here. I read about a developer who wanted to build a nice suburb of beautiful homes, and it was not allowed. Why? I can only guess that it's proximity to a World Heritage site makes it a place in the cross hairs of Agenda 21 and keeping people off the land, or it could be the liberals here who don't want more people to settle. They have a lot of power here and brought the abortion clinic.
To me, the symptoms of Union control, abuse of power, overspending, and refusal to employ wage and hiring freezes by the city manager are strikingly similar to the Detroit problem and will likely result in being so unsustainable that the city will be bankrupt when the residents cannot pay the taxes for the continual cost of doing business.
It's a recipe for disaster, grow govt jobs, cater to Unions, pass stupid laws(like here they passed a law to force businesses to use Union run waste haulers instead of privately run waste management, costs went up for trash hauling and businesses can be fined, another way of running out business), and refuse to control costs of government spending, run business out, cut out incentives for growth and expansion, stop efforts to build on even private land(oh yah that's Agenda 21 if I ever saw it).
I don't understand why Progressives want to destroy the business which could flourish if they stop interfering in free enterprise and stop with the excessive government. Clearly, even in a little town as ours, too much government is terrible.
I'm thinking of bringing up the failure of Detroit at a meeting as an example of what we don't want, and thank you for making this thread and for posting in such a well-informed manner.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

It's a recipe for disaster, grow govt jobs, cater to Unions, pass stupid laws(like here they passed a law to force businesses to use Union run waste haulers instead of privately run waste management, costs went up for trash hauling and businesses can be fined, another way of running out business), and refuse to control costs of government spending, run business out, cut out incentives for growth and expansion, stop efforts to build on even private land(oh yah that's Agenda 21 if I ever saw it).

Too bad Detroit didnt have the hindsight, hey?

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
I don't understand why Progressives want to destroy the business which could flourish if they stop interfering in free enterprise and stop with the excessive government. Clearly, even in a little town as ours, too much government is terrible.

Agree.

Its nice to hear that there are those really trying to make a difference, like you.

I applaud your actions.

reply to post by sonnny1


And too bad our residents are being told not to "interrogate" the liberal commissioners who won't tell the truth about the numbers on the budget. That is how they do it, they do not want to answer to the public even when the public is giving them real scrutiny.
Oh and thank you for the nice words. It's a new thing for me, but we have an active Tea Party presence in this Northwest part of the state and people are becoming engaged. We started attending these meetings after we did an expose on Agenda 21 and we wanted to find out what kind of stuff was going on and if Agenda 21 was being implemented or about to be. The nearby town has a full blown ICLEI running things there.

I went to Detroit last Thursday for a concert. My friends and I left our hotel to go to a restaurant about 5 minutes down the road and we were mugged. 3 black kids about 18-19 years old, sucker punched us and tried to pick pocket us. Luckily we can all take a punch and started swinging back. They ran away with nothing, but I will not be going to Detroit EVER again.

One of the many contributing factors to why Detroit is bankrupt. Who wants to take a vacation in murder city?

In the end it was partly the consumers who decided Detroit’s fate. When faced with a choice of buying a lesser vehicle for a higher price produced by an American company vs. a lower priced better vehicle from a foreign company; they chose the latter.


No company could compete while paying assembly line workers with limited skills, more than an experienced person with a Masters Degree would earn. Add to that the insane benefits packages and you kill an industry and a city.


It simply does not matter whether or not Democrats or Republicans are in control.


Another nail in Detroit’s coffin is city workers expecting and getting the same as those in the automotive industry. The false economy created by the citizens being grossly overpaid led to the city passing it along to their workers. No way could that be sustained even in good times.


Politicians give the People what they demand to get elected. What destroyed Detroit was greed. Greedy workers in the public and private sector who used Unions and the Unions corrupt leaders to destroy themselves. Now they look to blame it on anyone but themselves.


There is no money to give them and yet they scream for it all the same. Now they expect to be bailed out by people who owe them nothing.


The children screamed for more and more candy until they got it. Now it’s everyone’s fault but theirs that the candy is gone. We bail them out at our own peril. They need to dig themselves out of the hole they dug, or they will just dig it again.

The politicians are us. We decide who they are and how they act and then act as though we are innocent little lambs. Me, Me, Me will always lead to a bad conclusion to any story. We the People really do control things and we do a damn poor job of it, it seems.

Originally posted by DupontDeux
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Point your finger and blame either Democrats or Republicans as much as you want - the rest of the world shakes it head in disbelief and say 'America let this happen" .

From the outside - though it may be wrong - it looks like decades of domestic finger pointing is to blame for a LOT of Americas problems. When at any given time roughly half the political establishment is in disagreement with the other half, and is so by default, it seems as no wonder that no long term solutions to lang standing problems can be reached.

If you insist on searching for the arsonist before you put out the fire every time a house is burning, then someday all of you will run out of shelter. Just saying.

OTOH, if you don't stop the guy who is pouring gasoline on the fire, you'll never put it out either.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Actually, it was Henry Ford who started paying his workers on his assembly lines so much money. His rationale was that every one of his workers should be able to buy one of his vehicles. He doubled the wages of his workers and essentially became the father of the middle class in that move. He believed in volume profit over per sale profit. corporate.ford.com... Ford had such convictions on the matter being both important to his business and his country that, when Japan was rebuilding, he invited Kichiro Toyoda to view his assembly lines to improve Toyota's. It's also what Ford was doing in Germany as well, which lead to the Nazi association. So, it's unlikely that it was specifically wage related as doubling his employees' wages is what led him to build his fortune. What changed was the development of foreign trade agreements. Previously, items coming from outside the country had large tariffs attached to them that basically bumped the prices of imported goods to generally being higher than those manufactured at home.

Whereas foreign trade agreements opened up competition amongst the automakers globally, there was a significant flaw within those agreements in that it did not account for disparate costs of living. If you have a country where a family can live off of the equivalent of $6 for a month, then you bet American manufacturers are going to be sharply undercut in terms of price. The irony is now that the manufacturers are largely gone from the US due to more trade agreements, we're still paying very high prices for goods in comparison to their manufacturing costs.

Ford and the state of US manufacturing were subjects that we had to know in Cost Accounting. My professor for that class who spent a good deal of time talking on the subject was once the CFO of Farley candy company. He was kind of cool because he would bring in boxes of chocolates ("only the good stuff") and bags of gummi worms after tests.

reply to post by HauntWok


The "Administration before that had a surplus". Fact, no "administration" controls spending. Congress does.

That "Administration before that" had a Republican congress that blocked Mrs. Clinton's nationalized health care which would have then what Obama's has done now.

GM, et al were bringing in Mexican manufactured "targetmaster" motors from Mexico long before Nafta.

Detroit never made all the parts for their industry anyways. They came from all over the U.S.

Nafta has ZERO to do with Detroit's cluster****.

Nice try, though

reply to post by WhiteAlice


I don't think Henry Ford envisioned what the unions have done. It would be a stretch to the breaking point to link Henry Ford to this. The assembly line made fair pay possible due to increased productivity and also made lower prices possible.

Fair pay and pay so high it destroys cities, industries and the taxpayers are two seperate issues I think. The good Henry Ford did with his inovations was destroyed along with Detroit and the automotive industry there by greed and corruption.

reply to post by Blaine91555


Well it's not just that.. I think the drop in population from 1950 to the present is a huge factor as well..

Detroit's population is 40% of what it was at it's peak.

reply to post by DaMod


That's an excellent point as well.

Still though, all the other is what led to the population reduction. That is a symptom stemming from the same cause.