Who is Man to Take Away Free Will???

Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by Classygirl

Yup, they made great points. The points that they have made are what I have been saying, or maybe you didn't read ALL of my posts. You need to check yourself. Who's following who. I am a Christian who KNOWS not to force my beliefs on others, while others try to force their beliefs just because it is the norm. Or better yet, there are those who aren't even Christian but believe that certain rights should be taken away. Who is agreeing without questioning? I am the one who created this thread, and have ALREADY made my points. Those who write what I have been writing make great points because those points are in agreement with what I have been saying. Thank God there are actually people who understand what I am talking about.
I ignored nothing, and have addressed everything that contradicts my beliefs. Maybe you should read all my posts. By your response, I can tell that you didn't read them, or didn't understand them.

You as well as all those who agree with you, choose to ignore facts. You do so because the facts do not support your argument. It is very similar to what liberals do. If you are going to talk to me, and reference the bible, don't just reference things that agree with your point, and ignore the things that do not.

Again, what I said, is that God created. He created us knowing what he was doing. If he did not know what he was doing, then he is NOT OMNIPOTENT. It is as simple as that. If He did know what he was doing, then.....well then he intentionally sent billions of people to hell...without them having a choice. So, if you choose to accept the second possibility, then abort all you want...because when all is said and done it shouldn't matter. That is unless you choose to ignore facts so that your views can meet somewhere in the middle.

No I'm afraid you're thinking about it in the wrong way. We are given free will - God understands our natures and gives us the choice to love him and live by his will or not. Just because he knows who will and who won't accept this doesn't mean that they are not given the choice.

If you are in charge of a class of students and you know a few of them are likely to misbehave that doesn't take away from the fact that it is their choice as to whether they misbehave or not. The children that misbehave will be sent to detention - but you cannot say it was you that intentionally put them there. It was their actions that led to their punishment and they wanted to misbehave.

That's the correct way to look at it.

"If one never acknowledges the another's point of view, one will never understand that point of view. By understanding another's point of view, one learns why they feel the way they do. By understanding another's point of views, one learns to understand the other. If one is not willing to learn to understand one's neighbor, how can one love that neighbor?

"Check your motives. Are they of love, and understanding?" "

I know and fully understand where they are coming from. I used to hold their views. Although I understand, I am still sticking with mine. Yup, my motives are of love and understanding. That is why I was able to change my harsh views. Believe me, I used to have your views, but I changed them because of love and understanding. I have a wide spectrum on things to do with abortion, and if you understand how the government works, you wouldn't want them trying to control things like that. It's governent control. You'll find out sooner or later that it's not a good idea to get government in control of certain things. How old are you?
Talking about views, do you understand my view?

Originally posted by Simon_the_byron

Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by Classygirl

Yup, they made great points. The points that they have made are what I have been saying, or maybe you didn't read ALL of my posts. You need to check yourself. Who's following who. I am a Christian who KNOWS not to force my beliefs on others, while others try to force their beliefs just because it is the norm. Or better yet, there are those who aren't even Christian but believe that certain rights should be taken away. Who is agreeing without questioning? I am the one who created this thread, and have ALREADY made my points. Those who write what I have been writing make great points because those points are in agreement with what I have been saying. Thank God there are actually people who understand what I am talking about.
I ignored nothing, and have addressed everything that contradicts my beliefs. Maybe you should read all my posts. By your response, I can tell that you didn't read them, or didn't understand them.

You as well as all those who agree with you, choose to ignore facts. You do so because the facts do not support your argument. It is very similar to what liberals do. If you are going to talk to me, and reference the bible, don't just reference things that agree with your point, and ignore the things that do not.

Again, what I said, is that God created. He created us knowing what he was doing. If he did not know what he was doing, then he is NOT OMNIPOTENT. It is as simple as that. If He did know what he was doing, then.....well then he intentionally sent billions of people to hell...without them having a choice. So, if you choose to accept the second possibility, then abort all you want...because when all is said and done it shouldn't matter. That is unless you choose to ignore facts so that your views can meet somewhere in the middle.

No I'm afraid you're thinking about it in the wrong way. We are given free will - God understands our natures and gives us the choice to love him and live by his will or not. Just because he knows who will and who won't accept this doesn't mean that they are not given the choice.

If you are in charge of a class of students and you know a few of them are likely to misbehave that doesn't take away from the fact that it is their choice as to whether they misbehave or not. The children that misbehave will be sent to detention - but you cannot say it was you that intentionally put them there. It was their actions that led to their punishment and they wanted to misbehave.

That's the correct way to look at it.

You are really far off man. You people will say anything, no matter how stupid it is, I swear. Look, being a teacher in a class, and knowing that there is a mathematical, or statistical probability that a certain child will act up, resulting in detention is MUCH DIFFERENT from creating someone...KNOWING WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT YOU WILL SEND HIM TO HELL. Knowing a certainty, and knowing a likely probability are completely different scenerios.

If he knows everything LIKE YOU SAY, then when he created us, he knew our future decisions, thus condeming many to HELL. Its not just a likely probablility that we will do something, it is a complete certainty...after all he knew ahead of time what we would do just like you said above.

What a loving God....

Everytime you people try to defend yourselves....you seem worse.

[Edited on 11/20/2004 by Seapeople]

Originally posted by Classygirl
I know and fully understand where they are coming from. I used to hold their views. Although I understand, I am still sticking with mine. Yup, my motives are of love and understanding. That is why I was able to change my harsh views. Believe me, I used to have your views, but I changed them because of love and understanding. I have a wide spectrum on things to do with abortion, and if you understand how the government works, you wouldn't want them trying to control things like that. It's governent control. You'll find out sooner or later that it's not a good idea to get government in control of certain things. How old are you?
Talking about views, do you understand my view?

One can be pro-life without having harsh views.

Oddly enough, Roe vs Wade is Federal control. If Roe vs Wade is overturned, it will not make abortion illegal. It will allow individiual states to determine their own laws. Inversely, individual states are not currently allowed to decide for themselves if they have an obligation to protect all human life. A right of a state that was not addressed in Roe vs Wade.

I am 34.

If I did not understand the views of pro-choice, I would not be able to discuss the issue in a civil manner.

I had asked you a question earlier in this thread that you never answered. I would ask it again. If a woman gave birth to a baby and then held a gun to the head of the baby, would you support her right to choose to pull the trigger? If not, why does your opinion differ from the right to have an abortion?

"If a woman gave birth to a baby and then held a gun to the head of the baby, would you support her right to choose to pull the trigger?"

No, that is the reason why abortion should be legal, so she wouldn't have to do that to an already born child. If it is illegal, more things like that could happen, for instance, leaving babies in garbage cans, etc... It is different because she already made the choice to give birth to the child(controlling her own reproduction), plus up to three months, the baby is not yet a fetus. (People usually have abortions in three months or less.) The foundation of my point is to allow her to control her own reproduction. She's going to be the one pushing that baby out, so it's not up to me to make her do that.

The thing is a women who has sex can become pregnant without her knowing it because the embryo can be washed away. This is called a miscarriage. A lot of women have them without even knowing it. I know this because I am a premed major and studied this subject. So, there is a difference between an embryo and an already born human being.

There was, finally, someone who spoke to me in a way that touched my heart, and I know that this person's story would touch the heart of someone who is wanting an abortion. I won't go into detail, but stories like the one I heard changes hearts. If you can't touch ones heart, you can't change one's mind. More stories should be shared like the one that was shared with me. Not making abortion illegal, but sharing from the heart, that's what makes the difference.

Question for everyone who wants abortion to be illegal:

What should be done for women who were raped and impregnated? How about rape through incest? Will you be there to take care of her baby if it is mentally disabled because of having parents with similar genes? What can you, personally, do to help? When I say "personally" I am not referring to tax dollars because tax money isn't enough.

1 out of 3 women are raped and more are being raped as I am writing. I think women, especially, should be sensitive. People never know if it will ever hit home. It's a sensitive subject, and wrong choices will be made, but if I can't personally help I can't have a say in her giving birth.

Also, I know that it is a bad choice, yet still a choice, but what if a women has a child against her will and both her and the child die during birth. Was life really preserved, then?

I will some up my whole point....

For women who want abortion to be illegal, what if you get raped and impregnated? At that point, you will really know where you stand.

For the men, if you have a wife, and she was raped, you will only know where you truly stand at that point in time.

For both, if tragedy happens and you still stand by your views, God bless you!! But there are others who aren't able to do this.

I started to become sensitive to this issue after I had to do research on prochoice, and also after watching the pain in the eyes of women who were raped on the news and on talk shows. This is why I stand where I stand, realizing, that I shouldn't try to control any women's reproduction. But raped or not, it's still not my choice because I won't be there to coach her through the birth, or I wouldn't be there to give her strength for the hard labor up ahead. I'm not giving birth for her, so I won't try to make it illegal.

It's sometimes through tradegy that we see who we really are and what we really stand for.

Originally posted by Classygirl
Daniel,

Read ALL of my posts, thoroughly. If you did this, you wouldn't be asking me this question. Honestly, I think that you want me to say that I could be wrong. Who does that?!! Really.

The factor that sets apart a true philosopher and a zealot is that a true philosopher is willing to admit the possibility that he or she is wrong. This frame of mind leads to tollerance of other opinions although they may contradict yours (agreeing to disagree).

Who says I want to be a philosopher? In all honesty, I am much more like a zealot. Also, give me the name of a person on this thread who has accepted what I have been saying. Do you accept what I say?

I U2U'd Classygirl about the original post on this thread, and her reply has inspired me to repost what I said to her for everyones thoughts. I am indifferent to the abortion issue as I believe in free-will, but with every choice comes consequences - sometimes good sometimes bad. Here is the content of my message:


It is enlightening to see someone in the world today who believes in free will, especially regarding hard topics like the abortion issue. I admit I did not read through the entire thread of yours, so I do not presume to know all your background on what brought you to feel this way on pro-choice. As much as I strive to realize that free will is 'the way' God intended it to be, I still struggle with the consequences of the concept. I do not have a problem with abortion as in some circumstances I believe it is viable. In some cases it does cause hurt. I was naive when I was younger and when my wife was pregnant with our first child I insistently wanted her to abort due to financial reasons. I could have been right or wrong, but at this time it would be hard to tell. I think if aborting had happened, it would have made little difference in my life now, because I would have never missed what I gained. But, reality is that I conceded for my wife not to abort - guess what- I have a beautiful, healthy 12 year old daughter who is the best thing I have in my life. Every time I look at her I feel a sense of backdoor grief that I wished to give her up and I sincerely regret that. It feels like I wished to take away her life - her essence. It is a very hard thing to live with.

I think a lot of pro-lifers may speak from experience on this like me, but it does not solve the issue of free-will. Your issue is a hard one to solve - very difficult. I think God intended these things for one reason or another that I cannot fully fathom yet. I do know that life is a sort of lesson. I do believe that the world we live in is purposely difficult because that makes what we gain more meaningful to our spirit which takes this knowledge on forever. I think the pro/con lifers have their own lessons to learn. No one is absolutely right.

One thing that has consoled me in this fight is to consider when a life is a life. The government considers it after a certain tri-mester just for a legal definition, but I disagree. I think life actually begins here when you are conscious of your surrounding, which as you may know happens way after you are physically born. I can't remember being born or having teething pains or anything before the age of 3, maybe. So perhaps you do not recieve a soul until after a while - who knows? If it is just a matter of killing, then society needs to define life and death, which is a big controversy. A plant is defined to be alive, but does it have a soul? Who knows. Well, I wish you well on your endeavours and would love to hear your thoughts back on this.

Classygirl,

I don't have enough time to address all the points you have made. I hope to do so tomorrow.

Pro-life does not automatically mean anti-abortion. In cases of a medical threat of life and rape, neither of these are the causes for the greater majority of abortions. I can see a viable reason for abortion in these cases. But, relatively few cases do not justify the complete legality of abortion. Personally, I would not have a problem with having legal exceptions, similar to the way that killing an adult human has its exceptions.

There are differences in all the stages of human development. This is the reason they have different names. Zygote, Embryo, Fetus, Infancy, Toddler, Early Childhood, Pre-Adolescence, Adolescence, Young Adulthood, Middle Adulthood, Late Adulthood. But none is any more or less a human life.

Your facts about rape were inaccurate. Check here and here for some facts.

@ben91069

When life begins was never addressed legally.


[Edited on 22-11-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Originally posted by Classygirl
Who says I want to be a philosopher? In all honesty, I am much more like a zealot. Also, give me the name of a person on this thread who has accepted what I have been saying. Do you accept what I say?

Do you mean fully accepted and agreed about what you said (regarding your first request for me to give you a name of a person who accepted what you said)?

In regards to your last question, I do agree with you on some of your views (not all, but some) but it is not your beliefs that I have a problem with. I am one of the people that is secure enough with my self to honestly say that it is possible for my philosophy/view on life/religion could be a load of crap without me realizing it and everyone else could be right. This does not, however, change the strength of my belief in my philosophy; it simply allows me to see others' ideas with a more open mind.

What I do have a problem with is the logic behind some of your opinions. It is neither logical nor reasonable to post on a disscussion board without the intent of seeing other people's views as important.

What I am trying to say is that if you want other people to agree with you one of the most effective ways to get them to do so is to acknowledge their thoughts and opinions as valid and then to give logical reasons why you are more correct than they are. This allows them to see one of three things: you are right, you are wrong, or that your beliefs are simply not the way they would like to do things.

Like I said, I have no problem with your beliefs (this doesn't mean I agree with them), my problem lies with your logic.

Its a sensitive issue. As with any such issue its all too easy to go with gut feeling or religious beleifs or with the status quo and make bold judgements and preach and push YOUR veiw!
I think the best way to understand a persons decision is to extropolate their situation to yourself/ your loved ones. Its not so easy to condenm if your honest with yourself.
Legality intrudes in personal human affairs way too much imho.
Abortion saddens me, because i have witnessed and assisted the births of my two children, they are the greatest gift of all. The profound love i have for them colors my current veiw of abortion, however, im not so shallow or foolish to be incapable of having an open mind .
If my wife or daughters was raped and /or the child was likly to suffer serious deformity or lifelong health problems, Then I could accept such decision. Follow your heart and value common sense. God has bugger all to do with it, "he" is a prop for the weakminded and selfrighteous, folk know within themselves whats wrong, right or otherwise, we have never needed anyone, including "god" to tell us how to live! Good folk know they are good and evil folk know they are evil.
In the end, every one of us makes our decisions, no excuses. No preaching needed.

Raphael,

"Pro-life does not automatically mean anti-abortion." I think that I have read one of your posts that said this same thing. Ok, well that's cool. Now that you have wrote this again, I think that I am beginning to see where you stand.

Thanks for taking the time to answer even though you didn't have enough time to address all my points!

Daniel, I can agree with you on some of what you said. I could be wrong. Ok, I said it. LOL

I'm just so fed up with the government's expanding control. When I debate all of you, it's nothing personal towards you all, it's just that I have found out a lot of stuff about the government that doesn't sit right with me. I value all of your opinions.
I just had a chance to cool off because I wrote a post in the political theology forum. I was able to let off more steam, and find out how I can help change some of what is going on in America. It's not just this issue, but many others.

Daniel, you're a very good philosopher.

Originally posted by Classygirl
Daniel, I can agree with you on some of what you said. I could be wrong. Ok, I said it. LOL

I'm just so fed up with the government's expanding control. When I debate all of you, it's nothing personal towards you all, it's just that I have found out a lot of stuff about the government that doesn't sit right with me. I value all of your opinions.
I just had a chance to cool off because I wrote a post in the political theology forum. I was able to let off more steam, and find out how I can help change some of what is going on in America. It's not just this issue, but many others.

Daniel, you're a very good philosopher.

I agree. The government has gained much too much power over those it rules. Personally, I hope for a state of Anarchy. Anarchy is not chaos. A state of Chaos is one in which logic and ballance doesn't exist. Anarchy is compairable to the way animals in nature live. Everything is in ballance and all that they need to worry about is survival.

The only problem with this concept is that humans have overpopulated this planet so much that the only way for a true state of Anarchy would work would be for most of the population (about 80-95%) to die off (I know it sounds cruel but it is the truth; as long as there are too many people in this world there will always be wars and disputes over resources).

This is how see things.

Christians believe that God has given humanity free will. They can either perform actions in accordance to his will, or contrary to it. God does not interfere with that free will, no matter what. That explains why child molesters don't get fried with thunderbolts.

Being omnipotent, God knows what will happen, but does not interfere. I read somewhere that he chooses not to use this knowledge - chooses, if you will, to 'forget'. However, I have no idea if this is scriptual or just something a theologist made up.

Christians want to worship God. They aren't forced to do it, they do it out of love for Jesus. So I can understand Classygirl's comments as far as free will goes. I can even understand why she says that a woman should not be denied the choice of an abortion if she wishes - because no one would ever choose such a path in a spirit of love (which Christian women get from their belief in Jesus Christ). If Christians teach people of their belief, there is a chance that a woman considering an abortion would choose not to have it, purely because of the information obtained.

I understand all of that, yet cannot agree with abortion. Classygirl - have you ever seen what happens during an abortion ? Actually seen what happens to the little baby during the procedure ? No caring human being could watch that without suffering intense emotional pain.

Education is what is needed. Whether that is Christian-based or otherwise. Unwanted pregancies can be avoided, but people need to be educated.

No little child deserves to be torn from the womb and killed. If the 'mother' doesn't want the child, there is always adoption.

[Edited on 23-11-2004 by Pisky]

Pisky,

You are an intelligent thinker. Even though I disagree with some things you say and believe. You, give everything it's due process. Now, I am saying this because of something you said in the previous post. You said....you didn't know if it was scriptural, or something someone made up. A lot of people would have issued that as some sort of fact. A statement like that makes it clear that you can sift through information and come to your own conclusions. You are not a follower..at least it doesnt appear that way.

My stance on all issues stem from humans having free will. I do not beleive that how it is described in scripture allows for free will. So, I have fundamental dissagreements with the Bible. Some people criticise me heavily for it. I can still believe in God. I just can't believe in the Bible to the letter. Maybe in general, but not in a literal sense. I am forced to make oppinions such as....the "forget" opinion that you cited above.

"The only problem with this concept is that humans have overpopulated this planet so much that the only way for a true state of Anarchy would work would be for most of the population (about 80-95%) to die off (I know it sounds cruel but it is the truth; as long as there are too many people in this world there will always be wars and disputes over resources)."

The governent is already reducing the population by introducing new diseases into the population. AIDS was created by the government in the hopes to kill off many homosexual men. Basically, the government introduces new diseases via vaccines. When they say they are vaccinating a population, they sometimes, introduce a new disease along with the vaccine. Ebola is man made. It was created to reduce the African population. It was introduced during the time of vaccinating the population against smallpox. I'm glad that you agree with me, but I don't think that people should worry too much about over population because worrying about that will only lead to genocide. Genocide leads to biochemical warfare and so on.

Pisky,

I am glad that you came to this forum because you understand my point. The only thing is that abortion happens naturally to a women without her knowing it. What I'm saying is that when a women has sex, the embryo can be washed out. This is also how abortion can work. By three months, it is still tiny(embryonic stage). Why would a women wait until it is a fetus, I don't know, but it's not my body. RU487, was an abortion pill to induce a natural abortion, much like what naturally occurs to a woman without notice.

"Unwanted pregancies can be avoided, but people need to be educated. "

Yes, you are totally right in saying we need to be educated, but a women can't prevent pregnancy if she was raped. Also, women are not going to be totally stopped from having an abortion because illegal abortions occur, which endangers the life of the mother, as well.

My whole point is that, though sad, I can't make a women give birth against her own will. It's not my body going through what she has to go through. Again, rape is a regualr occurence and a women can become impregnated. 1 out of 3 women are raped. It's not easy to have a baby and give it up for adoption because a lot of emotions go into that. Also, it is hard for children to be adopted. Most likely, the child will have to go through many abusive foster homes. Many become foster parents for the money. Yes, emotions go into having an abortion also, but it wouldn't be by my choice, it would be hers.

You are very insightful.